[Trayderjoe]

Originally Posted by blueash

If you are going to come here and claim special wisdom at understanding math and numbers, please do me the favor of getting the math right. I'll leave you to find the completely ridiculous figure you calculated with such certainty. As my elementary school teacher said, "Check your work"

Actually the math is correct. What was incorrect was the phrase 90.5% of the worldwide population recovered. It should have stated 90.5% of the total cases resulted in recovery. My bad. Feel better now?

The good news is that Covid is still not as deadly as the “Fearporn” promoters would have us believe.

[chet2020]

Originally Posted by Escape Artist

You're wrong. That's not true at all, hence the need for boosters. Besides, the so-called immunity given is just for S-specific antibodies, meaning for one kind of spike protein only. Natural immunity acquired after an infection is broad and more long-lived.

Immunity always wanes, whether acquired via infection or vaccination.

Current peer-reviewed published info indicates vaccines confer better immunity than infection. There is an Israeli paper hanging around out there that is not yet peer-reviewed, we'll see what happens there.

It seems to me we still have little understanding of which antibodies interact with which virus proteins. So I'm trying to understand your statement re: S-specific ABs only attacking one type of spike protein. Do you have an article or paper to reference?

I asked for a reference, so I'll provide one also. This is a good overview of the current situation. Of course, this will evolve over time.

COVID-19 natural immunity versus vaccination | Nebraska Medicine Omaha, NE

[coralway]

Originally Posted by nick demis

A pilot was interviewed and said his present job is more stressful than when he was a fighter pilot. What does that say about the current situation? PS anyone that believes that the cancellations was due to weather, I have a bridge in NY for sale.

Then he should quit. There are thousands of CFI all across the country eager to take his place. And that goes for all SW pilots. If they don't wanna adhere to their employers requirements - resign.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by Trayderjoe

Actually the math is correct. What was incorrect was the phrase 90.5% of the worldwide population recovered. It should have stated 90.5% of the total cases resulted in recovery. My bad. Feel better now?

The good news is that Covid is still not as deadly as the “Fearporn” promoters would have us believe.

I'll let you do the checking since you started doing it anyway:

Of that 90.5% total cases that resulted in recovery:

How many required in-patient hospital stays?
How many man-hours went into the patients' recovery by health professionals, janitorial services, billing departments, insurance companies, ambulance services?
What was the average number of man-hours per patient for in-patient hospital stays?

How many required outpatient urgent care centers? Same questions for those.

How many required days missed from work?
How many total days missed from work, spread out among all people who were infected and recovered?
Of those days missed, how many were paid by employers? How many patients received no sick-pay for their days of work, and what was the average number of unpaid sick days per patient who was not entitled to sick pay?

How many family members had to miss work or school in order to care for the patient during recovery? How many hours were missed, per person?

How many patients recovered, but with permanent damage to any of their organs? How many family members will be spending the next several years assisting their "recovered" patients in treatments or extra medical care as a result of the permanent damage?

[Orvil]

Gary Kelly, CEO of SWA, said that sick calls were at the same rate as usually experienced during this time of year. The pilots union says that there is no concerted activity to reduce flights.

The truth of the matter is four-fold. One, they are understaffed both above the wing and below the wing. All airlines are understaffed. Too many retired or were laid off during the pandemic. Two, there were pop up thunderstorm cells around Jacksonville that clobbered all flying up and down the east coast Friday night. Three, ATC was short-handed Friday night in the high altitude sectors slowing down all traffic up and down the east coast. Four, Southwest uses a point-to-point operational model that is unique to the major airlines. While it is cheaper to operate on a day-to-day basis, it is seriously flawed when things go wrong. When it goes wrong, it goes wrong in a big way with limited ability to recover. Other airlines use the hub-and-spoke model which is more expensive to operate on a regular basis. The hub-and-spoke model gives the other major airlines the ability to recover the operation quickly when things go bad.

Thirty years in the industry. You learn a thing or two.

[Escape Artist]

Originally Posted by Orvil

Gary Kelly, CEO of SWA, said that sick calls were at the same rate as usually experienced during this time of year. The pilots union says that there is no concerted activity to reduce flights.

The truth of the matter is four-fold. One, they are understaffed both above the wing and below the wing. All airlines are understaffed. Too many retired or were laid off during the pandemic. Two, there were pop up thunderstorm cells around Jacksonville that clobbered all flying up and down the east coast Friday night. Three, ATC was short-handed Friday night in the high altitude sectors slowing down all traffic up and down the east coast. Four, Southwest uses a point-to-point operational model that is unique to the major airlines. While it is cheaper to operate on a day-to-day basis, it is seriously flawed when things go wrong. When it goes wrong, it goes wrong in a big way with limited ability to recover. Other airlines use the hub-and-spoke model which is more expensive to operate on a regular basis. The hub-and-spoke model gives the other major airlines the ability to recover the operation quickly when things go bad.

Thirty years in the industry. You learn a thing or two.

Hmmm, I'll have to ask my daughter's friend, who's a flight attendant for Southwest, about these assertions.

[jdulej]

Originally Posted by Orvil

Gary Kelly, CEO of SWA, said that sick calls were at the same rate as usually experienced during this time of year. The pilots union says that there is no concerted activity to reduce flights.

The truth of the matter is four-fold. One, they are understaffed both above the wing and below the wing. All airlines are understaffed. Too many retired or were laid off during the pandemic. Two, there were pop up thunderstorm cells around Jacksonville that clobbered all flying up and down the east coast Friday night. Three, ATC was short-handed Friday night in the high altitude sectors slowing down all traffic up and down the east coast. Four, Southwest uses a point-to-point operational model that is unique to the major airlines. While it is cheaper to operate on a day-to-day basis, it is seriously flawed when things go wrong. When it goes wrong, it goes wrong in a big way with limited ability to recover. Other airlines use the hub-and-spoke model which is more expensive to operate on a regular basis. The hub-and-spoke model gives the other major airlines the ability to recover the operation quickly when things go bad.

Thirty years in the industry. You learn a thing or two.

No fair. You are raining on the anti-vaxxer/anti-mandate parade.

[Trayderjoe]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

I'll let you do the checking since you started doing it anyway:

Of that 90.5% total cases that resulted in recovery:

How many required in-patient hospital stays?
How many man-hours went into the patients' recovery by health professionals, janitorial services, billing departments, insurance companies, ambulance services?
What was the average number of man-hours per patient for in-patient hospital stays?

How many required outpatient urgent care centers? Same questions for those.

How many required days missed from work?
How many total days missed from work, spread out among all people who were infected and recovered?
Of those days missed, how many were paid by employers? How many patients received no sick-pay for their days of work, and what was the average number of unpaid sick days per patient who was not entitled to sick pay?

How many family members had to miss work or school in order to care for the patient during recovery? How many hours were missed, per person?

How many patients recovered, but with permanent damage to any of their organs? How many family members will be spending the next several years assisting their "recovered" patients in treatments or extra medical care as a result of the permanent damage?

Are any of these questions UNIQUE to Covid? Is it possible, maybe even a little bit of a possibility that the same questions can be asked about any disease? If you truly have need for this data, you can try and look it up and please, present links to the data to support any claims.

BTW, I am still waiting for proof for this assertion in another thread:

Originally Posted by coffeebean:

"Has the flu EVER stressed our health care system like Covid has? Just wondering."

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

"The plague did. The flu did not.

COVID-19, all strains from beginning in late 2019 til now, have caused or contributed to the death of more people who died from the BIG Spanish influenza (or complications of the Spanish flu) epidemic of 1918."

My response and request for the data to support the assertion can be found in the Vietnam vs Florida thread, post #151 which is linked for your convenience. For context, the flu pandemic of 1918 killed 1 in every 150 people versus Covid which has killed 1 in 500.

[NoMoSno]

Originally Posted by coralway

Then he should quit. There are thousands of CFI all across the country eager to take his place. And that goes for all SW pilots. If they don't wanna adhere to their employers requirements - resign.

Actually, there is a qualified pilot shortage currently.

[Escape Artist]

Originally Posted by chet2020

Immunity always wanes, whether acquired via infection or vaccination.

Current peer-reviewed published info indicates vaccines confer better immunity than infection. There is an Israeli paper hanging around out there that is not yet peer-reviewed, we'll see what happens there.

It seems to me we still have little understanding of which antibodies interact with which virus proteins. So I'm trying to understand your statement re: S-specific ABs only attacking one type of spike protein. Do you have an article or paper to reference?

I asked for a reference, so I'll provide one also. This is a good overview of the current situation. Of course, this will evolve over time.

COVID-19 natural immunity versus vaccination | Nebraska Medicine Omaha, NE

That's not true. Acquired or natural immunity often can last a lifetime. They say you never catch the same cold (coronavirus) twice because you acquire natural immunity. However, there's also dozens of mutations and variants of the common cold so that's why we still catch colds every year. It's will be the same with Covid. If the vaccines conferred strong immunity you wouldn't need booster shots every few months. Pfizer admitted their vaccines waned by summer. As for Israel, they're already working on their fourth booster shot as cases continue to go up.

I will try and link the S-specific protein data later. It stands to reason, anyway, as it was developed for the original Covid hence it doesn't work that well against variants. It's not even a vaccine, remember, it's mRNA gene therapy. It instructs your cells to recognize and neutralize a particular spike protein.

[coffeebean]

Originally Posted by chet2020

Immunity always wanes, whether acquired via infection or vaccination.

Current peer-reviewed published info indicates vaccines confer better immunity than infection. There is an Israeli paper hanging around out there that is not yet peer-reviewed, we'll see what happens there.

It seems to me we still have little understanding of which antibodies interact with which virus proteins. So I'm trying to understand your statement re: S-specific ABs only attacking one type of spike protein. Do you have an article or paper to reference?

I asked for a reference, so I'll provide one also. This is a good overview of the current situation. Of course, this will evolve over time.

COVID-19 natural immunity versus vaccination | Nebraska Medicine Omaha, NE

Thank you for posting this link from a reliable source. When will people who have had natural Covid infection stop thinking they have better immunity than vaccinated people?

[SkBlogW]

Originally Posted by coffeebean

Thank you for posting this link from a reliable source. When will people who have had natural Covid infection stop thinking they have better immunity than vaccinated people?

I don't know who the quack is at that Nebraska HMO where that article was posted, but he is obviously ignorant of actual studies conducted by the CDC, Cleveland Clinic, and NIH.

Explaining this as I would to a third grader, I would say "Johnny, do you see lots of articles in the news about covid reinfections, or do you see tons of reports about breakthrough infections of the fully vaccinated"

The reinfection rate found in most scientific studies is 1% or less. The CDC measured breakthrough cases in Los Angeles and found them to be 25% of total cases.

"Which number is bigger Johnny? 1% or 25%??"

The cohort of 75,149 previously infected resulted in 315 suspected reinfections were identified, with a cumulative incidence at 270 days of 0.8%

Rate and severity of suspected SARS-Cov-2 reinfection in a cohort of PCR-positive COVID-19 patients

Cases of reinfection with COVID-19 have been reported, but remain rare​.​

Reinfection with COVID-19 | CDC

Cleveland Clinic study

The cumulative incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection remained almost zero among previously infected unvaccinated subjects.

Conclusions Individuals who have had SARS-CoV-2 infection are unlikely to benefit from COVID-19 vaccination, and vaccines can be safely prioritized to those who have not been infected before.

Necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals | medRxiv

"Now Johnny, if you want to believe some Omaha quack over the heavyweights listed above, it is your right to remain completely misinformed."

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by SkBlogW

I don't know who the quack is at that Nebraska HMO where that article was posted, but he is obviously ignorant of actual studies conducted by the CDC, Cleveland Clinic, and NIH.

Explaining this as I would to a third grader, I would say "Johnny, do you see lots of articles in the news about covid reinfections, or do you see tons of reports about breakthrough infections of the fully vaccinated"

The reinfection rate found in most scientific studies is 1% or less. The CDC measured breakthrough cases in Los Angeles and found them to be 25% of total cases.

"Which number is bigger Johnny? 1% or 25%??"

The cohort of 75,149 previously infected resulted in 315 suspected reinfections were identified, with a cumulative incidence at 270 days of 0.8%

Rate and severity of suspected SARS-Cov-2 reinfection in a cohort of PCR-positive COVID-19 patients

Cases of reinfection with COVID-19 have been reported, but remain rare​.​

Reinfection with COVID-19 | CDC

Cleveland Clinic study

The cumulative incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection remained almost zero among previously infected unvaccinated subjects.

Conclusions Individuals who have had SARS-CoV-2 infection are unlikely to benefit from COVID-19 vaccination, and vaccines can be safely prioritized to those who have not been infected before.

Necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals | medRxiv

"Now Johnny, if you want to believe some Omaha quack over the heavyweights listed above, it is your right to remain completely misinformed."

Third grade teachers should be held to a higher standard.

Hopefully, Johnny would be bright enough to point out the first "study" does not include a control to compare to, the second statement is unqualified and unsupported, and the third quote is actually just a segment of the actual sentence:

The cumulative incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection remained almost zero among previously infected unvaccinated subjects, previously infected subjects who were vaccinated, and previously uninfected subjects who were vaccinated, compared with a steady increase in cumulative incidence among previously uninfected subjects who remained unvaccinated.

[SkBlogW]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

Third grade teachers should be held to a higher standard.

Hopefully, Johnny would be bright enough to point out the first "study" does not include a control to compare to, the second statement is unqualified and unsupported, and the third quote is actually just a segment of the actual sentence:

The cumulative incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection remained almost zero among previously infected unvaccinated subjects, previously infected subjects who were vaccinated, and previously uninfected subjects who were vaccinated, compared with a steady increase in cumulative incidence among previously uninfected subjects who remained unvaccinated.

You don't need a control group to count the number of reinfections in a large cohort. Even Johnny knows that retrospective case studies do not have control groups.

2nd statement was made by CDC, I think they know more about it than you do.

3rd statement: SARS-CoV-2 infection remained almost zero among previously infected unvaccinated subjects. Stands by itself, is there something you don't understand about almost zero?

Since you appear to think you know more about this than the scientists and doctors that made the statements I linked to, show us your studies and data.

Do you actually think that reinfections are common and occur at higher rates than breakthrough cases? Don't believe natural immunity is stronger and longer lasting than vaccines? That's absurd, all the data says the opposite.

[Elaine Dickinson]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

Mandates don't require that you work for Southwest Airlines.

What about if you currently work at SWA and are MANDATED to be vaccinated. What if you are a healthy 35 year old pilot with 30 years of flying left and your employment is predicated on passing a FAA Medical Exam every 6 months for the next 30 years. If the Covid vaccine creates any side effects that risk that employment in the next 30 years would you err on the side of your own natural immune system. Or have something injected into your body that comes with NO LIABILITY WHATSOEVER. That's a BIG question for a healthy 35 year old pilot with multimillion in career earning to gamble on. Once again, a 35 year old pilot will retire at 65 with over $4,000,000 in their 401k. And you expect them to bet it all on black at the roulette table.