[BS Beef]

This is off of Twitter so not sure how well this will copy. But funny for those of us that remember another Bob and Doug.

https://twitter.com/FrankCaliendo/status/1266833770579062784/video/1

[BS Beef]

I can save new readers some time.....

This thread is about the post office and whether you think it’s good or bad. I know what you’re thinking. But don’t feel bad I fell for it too and thought it was about SpaceX.

[Stu from NYC]

Originally Posted by Windguy

Well, I worked for NASA in Houston from 1972-1977 and I wore a tie only a few times—primarily for important presentations. Managers wore ties most of the time, but not the regular engineers. NASA had the same excited young engineers that SpaceX does. I was there during Shuttle development, but got to see the last Moon mission, Apollo/Soyuz, Skylab, and the Enterprise drop test for the Shuttle program. We got just as excited as SpaceX does.

What follows is my personal opinion of what have been the problems with NASA.

I think the problem with blown schedules and cost overruns was due to working with the military industrial complex, which has been screwing the government for many decades. They knew NASA and the military couldn’t exist without them and got away with as much as they could. The people at NASA hated them.

I left NASA to go into business with my best friend, but it didn’t work out. I hated Houston, so I got a job with Martin Marietta in Denver. While working there on a NASA project, several pilots came to fly the simulator I was working on. One I had worked closely with at NASA recognized me. He pulled me aside and asked why I was “working for the bad guys.” I told him my loyalties were still with NASA. This was a common attitude. Everyone hated Rockwell International and were bitter that they were picked as the prime contractor for the Shuttle. Apparently, it was a political decision, because they had the worst design AND worst track record (remember Apollo 1 and Apollo 13?).

The problem isn’t that SpaceX is more efficient than NASA. The problem is that NASA is saddled with Congress and their desire to bring jobs—even unnecessary ones—to their districts. And of course those jobs go to the old-guard aerospace companies who have been bribing them for decades. And those companies know they can get away with anything. The whims of Congress also means funds are not dependable.

So, an upstart company with a Silicon Valley attitude comes along and decides they want to go to Mars. They don’t own Congress and have to prove themselves to get anywhere. They win over the hearts and minds of the American public and so Congress is forced to play ball with them. They grudgingly allow SpaceX to get one of the contracts for Commercial Crew. The old-guard influence still results in Boeing getting a lot more money to do the job than SpaceX ($4.2B vs $2.6B). And guess what. SpaceX got to the ISS first. They had something to prove and they risked their company to make it happen. You can bet Boeing didn’t risk their company. They knew NASA and the military can’t live without them and so they didn’t have to try harder.

So, don’t blame NASA for our past space woes. Blame congress and the military industrial complex that owns them and offers members cushy jobs when they leave congress.

Also, don’t blame the USPS for their problems. Congress won’t let them run their operation in a realistic way. They can’t set their own rates and they were saddled with unnecessary rules regarding setting aside unnecessary funds. Blame the congress that has been trying to kill them for a long time. If you turn the USPS duties over to a private company, you won’t be getting mail six days a week and people in rural areas will have to drive long distances to get mail. Tell me, is it more efficient for every farmer to drive to town every day for mail than to have one letter carrier drive from farm to farm?

Thank you so much for your post. Learned a lot.

[Stu from NYC]

Originally Posted by Topspinmo

Like all government ran programs. The have 5 people managing 1 guy doing the job. And the guy actually doing the work is the less paid.

Sad but very very true

[Dennys37Packard]

Private industry usually works. As far as USPS being cheaper than UPS and FEDEX, of course, it’s a govt business that ALWAYS runs at a loss kept afloat by taxpayers money.
From fiscal year (FY) 2007 through FY 2018, the USPS’s net losses totaled $69 billion. The USPS announced in its fourth quarter financial statement that in FY 2019, it ran an $8.8 billion deficit, a 125 percent increase compared to FY 2018. This marks 13 years of consecutive losses for the USPS, totaling $77.8 billion.
As far as the other big two delivering first class mail, not allowed by law. And both run at huge annual profits in the billions.
Bottom line ... if USPS had to run as a legitimate business, how much do you think their rates would go up? Would you invest your money in in a company with that kind of loss? USPS does a great job at what it does but nowhere could they compete IF they had to make a profit without govt funds. Just my opinion.

[EviesGP]

To be more accurate(IMO), this post is more about private sector vs govt managed program(s). And Windguy pretty much nailed it. But to add to that, he was certainly correct about the military industrial complex. But, I also fault Congress(et al) on that one. The military, like many other govt entities, merely spends whatever they're given, without alot of regard to savings. Except, when they realize they need to work within theirs means, which is why the military has been trying to save money by closing/consolidating bases(i.e. BRAC). Many of those bases were built during the early/mid 1900s, and are totally un-needed. But, Congress won't let them, as it will hurt their home districts and jobs! Because, that's what it's all about. And, as a retired Fed Civ Service(and military), I can tell you first hand, how inefficient it gets when govt steps in. The salaries and benefits are quite generous(as were mine). I did everything I could to earn my way, but I witnessed people constantly leaving for better fed jobs("downtown"), which paid even more, with very little responsibility. There were and are GREAT people working for the govt. But, in comparison to private sector, which has to constantly look at the bottom dollar, the efficiencies just don't compare. Regardless, there is/always will be a role that must be ran by the govt. And, well, nothing will get resolved here on ToTV, either. Cheers!

[IvorT]

I noticed how much time has moved on, since Apollo and Shuttle days. A few minutes before launch, the flight controller came on the voice net, and reminded everyone, that if there was a fire alarm during launch, designated people were to stay at their posts, all others evacuate the building. We now live in a health & safety culture. Sometimes good, sometimes bad.

In defence of NASA. Don’t know if this applies to contractors. Anything that is invented by NASA is not patented. The argument goes, that the US tax payer, already paid to fund NASA, they shouldn’t have to pay again to use what NASA invents.

[BarryD]

Originally Posted by Pedrocarrasco01@yahoo.com

Private sector can do it less expensive and faster than the Government, example is the post office versus UPS or Fedex both of these are more efficient and timely versus the bloated and inefficient post office.

Most of us really like the US Post Office. Note they deliver mail not just packages, they are cheaper and faster for some packages, more expensive and slower for others but competitive, they don't cheat their workers (compensation or healthcare), they are forced by D.C. to fund retirement more than anyone else in the country. They are having a problem now (like others due to COVID-19) but we still want to get our mail. Don't use USPS if you don't want to but please get your facts straight and don't act against the rest of us who like getting our mail.

Originally Posted by Windguy

Well, I worked for NASA in Houston from 1972-1977 and I wore a tie only a few times—primarily for important presentations. Managers wore ties most of the time, but not the regular engineers. NASA had the same excited young engineers that SpaceX does. I was there during Shuttle development, but got to see the last Moon mission, Apollo/Soyuz, Skylab, and the Enterprise drop test for the Shuttle program. We got just as excited as SpaceX does.

What follows is my personal opinion of what have been the problems with NASA.

I think the problem with blown schedules and cost overruns was due to working with the military industrial complex, which has been screwing the government for many decades. They knew NASA and the military couldn’t exist without them and got away with as much as they could. The people at NASA hated them.

I left NASA to go into business with my best friend, but it didn’t work out. I hated Houston, so I got a job with Martin Marietta in Denver. While working there on a NASA project, several pilots came to fly the simulator I was working on. One I had worked closely with at NASA recognized me. He pulled me aside and asked why I was “working for the bad guys.” I told him my loyalties were still with NASA. This was a common attitude. Everyone hated Rockwell International and were bitter that they were picked as the prime contractor for the Shuttle. Apparently, it was a political decision, because they had the worst design AND worst track record (remember Apollo 1 and Apollo 13?).

The problem isn’t that SpaceX is more efficient than NASA. The problem is that NASA is saddled with Congress and their desire to bring jobs—even unnecessary ones—to their districts. And of course those jobs go to the old-guard aerospace companies who have been bribing them for decades. And those companies know they can get away with anything. The whims of Congress also means funds are not dependable.

So, an upstart company with a Silicon Valley attitude comes along and decides they want to go to Mars. They don’t own Congress and have to prove themselves to get anywhere. They win over the hearts and minds of the American public and so Congress is forced to play ball with them. They grudgingly allow SpaceX to get one of the contracts for Commercial Crew. The old-guard influence still results in Boeing getting a lot more money to do the job than SpaceX ($4.2B vs $2.6B). And guess what. SpaceX got to the ISS first. They had something to prove and they risked their company to make it happen. You can bet Boeing didn’t risk their company. They knew NASA and the military can’t live without them and so they didn’t have to try harder.

So, don’t blame NASA for our past space woes. Blame congress and the military industrial complex that owns them and offers members cushy jobs when they leave congress.

Also, don’t blame the USPS for their problems. Congress won’t let them run their operation in a realistic way. They can’t set their own rates and they were saddled with unnecessary rules regarding setting aside unnecessary funds. Blame the congress that has been trying to kill them for a long time. If you turn the USPS duties over to a private company, you won’t be getting mail six days a week and people in rural areas will have to drive long distances to get mail. Tell me, is it more efficient for every farmer to drive to town every day for mail than to have one letter carrier drive from farm to farm?

Excellent analysis

[manaboutown]

Originally Posted by IvorT

I noticed how much time has moved on, since Apollo and Shuttle days. A few minutes before launch, the flight controller came on the voice net, and reminded everyone, that if there was a fire alarm during launch, designated people were to stay at their posts, all others evacuate the building. We now live in a health & safety culture. Sometimes good, sometimes bad.

In defence of NASA. Don’t know if this applies to contractors. Anything that is invented by NASA is not patented. The argument goes, that the US tax payer, already paid to fund NASA, they shouldn’t have to pay again to use what NASA invents.

NASA does patent its inventions but it also freely licenses them. Patent Portfolio

[Topspinmo]

Originally Posted by Number 10 GI

In Nashville, TN there are 3 major interstates the run through town, I24, I65 and I40, the traffic is horrible. Almost 20 years ago the state started making plans to build a loop around the city to get the interstate travel out of the bottleneck in the city. TDOT did a great job of planning a route that was the most economical to develop the loop. Well the state legislators and county mayors wanted the loop to pass through their district so as to open up economic development for these smaller counties. By the time they got done deciding where the loop needed to go to satisfy the legislators it wasn't a loop any longer, it looked like a bunch of dog legs joined together which naturally increased the cost of building it and significantly delayed and increased the time to build it. The loop still isn't completed and likely won't be for another couple decades.

When I go north I take 155 loop around Nashville. Seems like the are always working and blocking lanes through maze through down town Nashville.

[JoMar]

Originally Posted by EviesGP

To be more accurate(IMO), this post is more about private sector vs govt managed program(s). And Windguy pretty much nailed it. But to add to that, he was certainly correct about the military industrial complex. But, I also fault Congress(et al) on that one. The military, like many other govt entities, merely spends whatever they're given, without alot of regard to savings. Except, when they realize they need to work within theirs means, which is why the military has been trying to save money by closing/consolidating bases(i.e. BRAC). Many of those bases were built during the early/mid 1900s, and are totally un-needed. But, Congress won't let them, as it will hurt their home districts and jobs! Because, that's what it's all about. And, as a retired Fed Civ Service(and military), I can tell you first hand, how inefficient it gets when govt steps in. The salaries and benefits are quite generous(as were mine). I did everything I could to earn my way, but I witnessed people constantly leaving for better fed jobs("downtown"), which paid even more, with very little responsibility. There were and are GREAT people working for the govt. But, in comparison to private sector, which has to constantly look at the bottom dollar, the efficiencies just don't compare. Regardless, there is/always will be a role that must be ran by the govt. And, well, nothing will get resolved here on ToTV, either. Cheers!

Actually as the OP, this was about SpaceX vs NASA....not about the post office, military bases or other government agencies. Hijacking is the usual here so it wasn't unexpected.

[Stu from NYC]

Originally Posted by JoMar

Actually as the OP, this was about SpaceX vs NASA....not about the post office, military bases or other government agencies. Hijacking is the usual here so it wasn't unexpected.

Thanks for the reminder. I need to do a better job of staying on topic.