[RichieLion]

Originally Posted by Russ_Boston

OK all - let's get back to the topic as presented.

Richie - I'm sure the person who wrote the article has all good intentions towards his cause. I'm not defending any of the pat-down procedures because I feel that we can use common sense on children under a certain age.

BUT

We have to be careful about the cause and effect of the pat-down vis/vie risk for predators. I work as an RN and a couple days per week I work in Pedi. Part of my job is getting the kids to trust us (the nurses and docs) to perform (sometimes) some very private and/or personal acts and touching in 'those places'. Most kids under a certain age don't quite understand that what we are doing is for their own good. They just listen to mom, dad and me telling them that "sometimes we need to do these things". And sometimes we need to keep it fun and give them stickers etc. I would hate to think that I'm leading them down the path towards predators. It is the parents job to work with their children to recognize the difference.

Does what I said make any sense? Isn't it our job as parents to educate and protect?

The groping of a child's genitals is not, I repeat, not a game. When you are working with children in the capacity of your job, do you say "Now let's play a game".

I think what you are doing is explaining to the child why you have to touch him in a place where no one, I repeat, no one should touch him. You may have to in the performance of your duty as a health provider, when absolutely necessary, and with his parent/parents present to help explain to the child why. Is this correct?

I do not think that the TSA in order to do their job quickly should be telling a child that he's going to hold the child's genitals in his hand and "it's OK, it's just a game we're playing".

Doesn't the findings of Mr. Wooden in this matter have any validity in your opinion, when you consider the way pedophiles have been known to groom a child for molestation?

This is a extraordinary abuse of federal power in my opinion, and an abdication of our 4th Amendment rights, and a dangerous precedent that will filter down into our everyday lives once we become accustomed to accepting that the government has this power over us "for our own safety".

[actor]

Originally Posted by RichieLion

The groping of a child's genitals is not, I repeat, not a game. When you are working with children in the capacity of your job, do you say "Now let's play a game".

I think what you are doing is explaining to the child why you have to touch him in a place where no one, I repeat, no one should touch him. You may have to in the performance of your duty as a health provider, when absolutely necessary, and with his parent/parents present to help explain to the child why. Is this correct?

I do not think that the TSA in order to do their job quickly should be telling a child that he's going to hold the child's genitals in his hand and "it's OK, it's just a game we're playing".

Doesn't the findings of Mr. Wooden in this matter have any validity in your opinion, when you consider the way pedophiles have been known to groom a child for molestation?

This is a extraordinary abuse of federal power in my opinion, and an abdication of our 4th Amendment rights, and a dangerous precedent that will filter down into our everyday lives once we become accustomed to accepting that the government has this power over us "for our own safety".

Gracie.

[golfnut]

russ, can u comment please...gn

[RichieLion]

Originally Posted by golfnut

russ, can u comment please...gn

You don't seem to have a coherent thought or comment on this tread but you keep posting.

If you have an opinion, other than just trashing me, let's hear it. Do you dispute the findings in the articles I've posted?

Do you just believe that the government has the right to do anything they want, to anybody they want in the name of "security", regardless of it's effectiveness?

If you do, how about posting a discussion point instead of your condescending remarks.

[chuckster]

Whew!! Are you done with the soap box yet? Your point has been made, take it to a higher level beyond TOTV and let's move on.............

Here it comes

[golfnut]

thanks chuckster...gn

[Russ_Boston]

I choose to not be contentious.

I think Richie is passionate about this possible abuse of power and he may be correct and he is certainly erring on the side of safety of our children and I would applaud him for that (as would we all).

I would answer by saying that NO we do not call it a game. I think my point is that some things that happen to children are somewhat, repeat somewhat, similar to what TSA expects. If for some reason children must be patted down then there should be a way to do it that does not endanger them in the future.

Children are, and have been forever, encouraged to do things they don't want to do with rewards. That could be candy, playing a game, going for a trip etc. I don't claim to be an expert on pedophiles but they prey on this to lure children. I do think TSA could find another way. And maybe as parents, and assuming the child doesn't fly often, we could let the child go through the scanner to avoid the pat-down? I would think TSA's 'game' would have to be repeated often to end up patterning the child for such future behavior.

Just my 2 cents as a parent, a day care center provider (17 years), and a nurse.

I could be wrong.

[redwitch]

When my daughter was little, she had to endure some pretty invasive handling by medical professionals. It was NEVER made into a game. I would explain to her that while she had been taught it was not okay for anyone to touch her there, sometimes there were times it had to be done and that I would be right there with her to make sure they were only doing what they had to do.

Personally, I don't like what TSA is getting away with. It goes against my concept of civil liberties. I also agree that it should not be turned into a game. Making an unpleasant experience as palatable as possible is one thing, to make it "fun" is another.

I honestly think that if my daughter were still little or if I were flying with my grandson and someone said they needed to check their gentalia for weapons, I would be leaving the airport and finding another way to travel. There is just no way I could justify having my child or grandchild manhandled.

If you feel that today's searches are necessary, then by all means accept them and fly away. If you feel they are overly invasive, illegal or immoral, then do your best to reject them, either by refusing to fly, protesting or by doing as Richie does and trying to educate others as to his beliefs and why he finds them objectionable. You don't have to read his posts about body searches. You know his views -- they're self-evident from the titles. But that doesn't mean you have to denigrate him or his beliefs. He is making valid points, although some may be somewhat stretched.

[Pturner]

Originally Posted by redwitch

When my daughter was little, she had to endure some pretty invasive handling by medical professionals. It was NEVER made into a game. I would explain to her that while she had been taught it was not okay for anyone to touch her there, sometimes there were times it had to be done and that I would be right there with her to make sure they were only doing what they had to do.

Personally, I don't like what TSA is getting away with. It goes against my concept of civil liberties. I also agree that it should not be turned into a game. Making an unpleasant experience as palatable as possible is one thing, to make it "fun" is another.

I honestly think that if my daughter were still little or if I were flying with my grandson and someone said they needed to check their gentalia for weapons, I would be leaving the airport and finding another way to travel. There is just no way I could justify having my child or grandchild manhandled.

If you feel that today's searches are necessary, then by all means accept them and fly away. If you feel they are overly invasive, illegal or immoral, then do your best to reject them, either by refusing to fly, protesting or by doing as Richie does and trying to educate others as to his beliefs and why he finds them objectionable. You don't have to read his posts about body searches. You know his views -- they're self-evident from the titles. But that doesn't mean you have to denigrate him or his beliefs. He is making valid points, although some may be somewhat stretched.

Well said.

[RichieLion]

Originally Posted by redwitch

When my daughter was little, she had to endure some pretty invasive handling by medical professionals. It was NEVER made into a game. I would explain to her that while she had been taught it was not okay for anyone to touch her there, sometimes there were times it had to be done and that I would be right there with her to make sure they were only doing what they had to do.

Personally, I don't like what TSA is getting away with. It goes against my concept of civil liberties. I also agree that it should not be turned into a game. Making an unpleasant experience as palatable as possible is one thing, to make it "fun" is another.

I honestly think that if my daughter were still little or if I were flying with my grandson and someone said they needed to check their gentalia for weapons, I would be leaving the airport and finding another way to travel. There is just no way I could justify having my child or grandchild manhandled.

If you feel that today's searches are necessary, then by all means accept them and fly away. If you feel they are overly invasive, illegal or immoral, then do your best to reject them, either by refusing to fly, protesting or by doing as Richie does and trying to educate others as to his beliefs and why he finds them objectionable. You don't have to read his posts about body searches. You know his views -- they're self-evident from the titles. But that doesn't mean you have to denigrate him or his beliefs. He is making valid points, although some may be somewhat stretched.

Thank you Russ, and thank you Redwitch for addressing my points of view seriously and answering my questions and concerns forthrightly. Russ, I didn't think you would turn a physical examination of a child into "playtime".

Redwitch, I agree with your post, even if you think some points are stretched. I don't agree with that assessment, but I won't belabor it. My concern is for our freedoms as Americans and the sanctity of our bodies.

[l2ridehd]

You are all very passionate about this issue. Lets think about why we are being subjected to this form of privacy invasion. Because there are people out there who want to kill you by blowing up planes with you on them. It has been done successfully, tried many more times, and stopped many more before the person even got on board. Those are facts we can't ignore. And yes these people who want to kill you will continue and they have also used their children as a bomb to kill people. Lets place the blame where it belongs. And if you are not able to accept the process, don't fly. None of us did 60 years ago and we survived fine.

There is another real simple solution, everyone has to fly naked.

[paulandjean]

What a bunch of nonsense. The parents would be standing right there. Move on.

[GeorgeT]

Originally Posted by l2ridehd

You are all very passionate about this issue. Lets think about why we are being subjected to this form of privacy invasion. Because there are people out there who want to kill you by blowing up planes with you on them. It has been done successfully, tried many more times, and stopped many more before the person even got on board. Those are facts we can't ignore. And yes these people who want to kill you will continue and they have also used their children as a bomb to kill people. Lets place the blame where it belongs. And if you are not able to accept the process, don't fly. None of us did 60 years ago and we survived fine.

There is another real simple solution, everyone has to fly naked.

It amazes me that many of you miss the point that Richie is making. Don't you read all of the posts or just the ones that are ganging up on him? It reminds me of a wolf pack or a shark feeding frenzy! Please make an effort to understand what someone is saying before you attack.



GT