[l2ridehd]

I agree with Gracie and Rubicon. Because to me many of the ten commandments are the laws that we all live by or else we go to prison.

Thou shall not kill (murder)
Thou shall not steal (felony)
Thou shall not bear false witness (perjury)
Thou shall not covet your neighbors house (goes along the line of stealing)
Thou shall not covet your neighbors wife (adultery)
Honor your father and mother (shouldn't we all?)
Thou shall not commit adultery (Honor your spouse)

Somehow we would all do a little better to live by those rules. So for me those are different than placing a stature of satan or Jesus. They belong in our courts, the others do not.

[Shirleevee]

Great post!

[ilovetv]

Originally Posted by redwitch

Not sure what to say. I don't think a statue of the 10 Commandments belongs in a government enclave. I don't think a statue of Satan belongs, either. But, if you're going to allow one, I think you should allow the other. At least people can sit on Satan's lap. In reading the article, several other religious groups have also petitioned to allow statues showing their beliefs. Maybe a circle of statues honoring all religions could be a good thing?

Moses and the Ten Commandments are in the sculptures on the Supreme Court building in Washington, along with other philosphers and "lawgivers".

"Here the sculpture group is by Hermon A. MacNeil, and the marble figures represent great lawgivers, Moses, Confucius, and Solon, flanked by symbolic groups representing Means of Enforcing the Law, Tempering Justice with Mercy, Settlement of Disputes Between States, and Maritime and other functions of the Supreme Court. The architrave bears the legend: "Justice the Guardian of Liberty."
The Court Building - Supreme Court of the United States

"Lawgivers". Not the prince of Lawlessness--Satan.

[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

I am NOT fighting any form of religion or supporting it in this argument. In fact I support the separation of church and state. I HATE when people try to accomplish their goals with this kind of hatred.


When you win, you lose. What have you accomplished? You have not done it in the right way.

Good, then you must agree, that the christian symbol was the cause of the ruckus therefore created the hateful protest.

All or none.

[rubicon]

Originally Posted by blueash

Thank you for so excellently making my point. Some Christians see this country as theirs and their faith under attack. They don't see the 10 commandments as religious just some nice set of 10 rules to live by. Like "have no other god" clearly not religious. Like remember the Sabbath and keep it holy, not a religious thought there. Like don't worship idols or I'll smite you and your offspring for four generations.. Nothing religious there. And of course the "not take the name of the lord in vain" nothing religious there either. That's 4 of the 10 already. You see the 10 commandments are not a non-religious set of rules for everyone. So for anyone to state as a given that the 10 are "excellent guidelines for a people to follow and emulate." suggests you haven't read them all or considered how a non-Christian might see my government supporting posting of a threat to smite me and my children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren for not believing in your god as antithetical to the idea of no government promotion of any religion.
There is no attack on Christianity. There is an attack on the idea that Christians can have freedom to push their gods and their stories as the ones to get special government protection from that unenlightened Hell bound satan worshipping group of Americans who apparently were not sufficiently kicked in the pants as children to become good Christians.

And your understanding that the Founders were establishing rules for freedom of religion not freedom from religion is a cute phrase but the Constitution is very clear that there is not to be any religious test for governing thus the Founders clearly understood that a nation ruled by atheists or other non-Christians was entirely permissible. The oath of office does not include so help me god, that has been a voluntary addition by some Presidents. When some fundamental Christians objected to postmasters having to work on the sabbath (see commandment #3 or #4 depending on your particular religion) in the 1810's they asked the Congress to change the law to give postmasters the sabbath free from work. Instead the Congress, with its historical proximity much closer to mine to what the Founders meant when they wrote the Constitution responded by writing a law requiring postmasters to work on Sunday. This was reinforced several times in the 1800's despite petitions from Christians to enforce their sabbath. Not until President Taft was the mail week changed to eliminate Sunday deliveries in part due to religious concerns but in greater measure the new labor laws limiting the number of hours an employee could work and the power of the Postal Workers Union asking for the day off.

Many Americans believe that public Christianity has always been the way it worked until now when mean people like me arrived. No, it was the other way around until the mid 20th century when Christianity went into stores, public squares, the beginning of super-churches and as the signs say, taking Christ out of Christianity to make it not holy but secular, Santa in the square. Religion used to be a private matter, kept private. When was the first official Xmas tree in the white house? When was god added to the pledge of allegiance?

I am not fighting Christianity and I agree it has done more good than harm, but plenty of harm. I think Islam has done more good than harm, I think Hinduism, Buddhism, Thor, Jupiter, Baal, and Zeus have done more good than harm too. I think faith (small f) is a positive influence for many many people. It provides a framework for dealing with the stresses in life and solace when bad things happen. Pastafarians look forward to a beer volcano in the afterlife. But my faith or yours belong in the privacy of my home, or my church, with my loved ones and my private community. I do not have any reason to expect the government to push my religion. I have every reason to expect the government to NOT take sides. And when the government says it is not taking a side, just opening the public space for free expression I then expect it to truly be open to all. If someone produces a statue of the tenets of a faith which positively asserts that no god exists or that Jesus was a gay black schizophrenic if it offends you, keep in mind that the Christian statue saying that Jesus is the one and only and that those who don't share that belief are incomplete and need to be saved and prayed over or they go to hell just might be offensive to me. All or nothing.

blueash: Once again this country was founded on Judeo-Christian beleifs. to suggest that they can be or should be practice only in private make my point clear that there is a continuing assault on Christians, Just ask the Coptic Christians. Still further if this thought of yours is that religion should only be private then why is it the Muslims in Minneapolis demand and are permitted to refuse airline passengers in their taxi's if this passenger is carrying liquor, or store clerks who refuse to checkout customers who purchased pork products, or are allowed more breaks to accommodate their demand for prayer time through out the work day. Yet, its capital St paul won't allow Easter bunnies or Christmas decorations because they view them as symbols of Christinaity. Still further pharmacist whose religious belief contradict the selling of contraceptives morning after pill are told to do their due diligence or get fired. Obamacare is in a lawsuit over this very issue. Clearly assaults on Christian religion only

You first mention the 10 commandments. Again let me remind you that I prefaced my remarks by stating irrespective of the progenitor. Perhaps you should view the 10 commandments in this manner. What is the opposite response to each of the 10 commandments? Haven't you noticed the mind set of people today. foul mouth disrespectful arrogant, ignorant, egocentric etc etc etc . Perhaps if they adhered to the 10 commandments this society might return to its civility.

You criticize a president that decides unilaterally to take an oath under God. I fear a man who refuses to take an oath under God for obvious and factual reasons. Or that we Pledge alliances under God. Isn't such a pledge reassuring that these are people of principal and lastly, you essentially are saying that Christians should not have the right to practice their religion in the way they so chose.

In summary blueash the Judeo-Chrisian belief is deeply imbedded in our society and its haters are making every attempt to remove it. and the irony is Christians will embrace these haters love them pray for them and support the good in them. finally my description of Jesus is love and those who want to argue Jesus's ethnicity, orientation, etc are deliberately attempting to place people to in a situation to address a negative and we know what games are played there


Personal Best Regards

[Bavarian]

The problem is that the statue is one of Satan, the enemy of all other Faiths and Religions.

[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by Bavarian

The problem is that the statue is one of Satan, the enemy of all other Faiths and Religions.

No, that is the only one mentioned here, but several main stream faiths wish to add there statue to the Capitol.

The problem is that it MUST be open to all or none. No brainier to me. Remove the 10 commandments and all is settled. Or put into law that America is a Christian only country and be ready to enforce it.

[Bavarian]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

No, that is the only one mentioned here, but several main stream faiths wish to add there statue to the Capitol.

The problem is that it MUST be open to all or none. No brainier to me. Remove the 10 commandments and all is settled. Or put into law that America is a Christian only country and be ready to enforce it.

The Ten Commandments is from the Old Testament so they are not strictly Christian they are Jewish.

As Bill O'Reilly said, Christianity is not a religion, it is a philosophy that many Faiths adhere to in their own way.

[JourneyOfLife]

I don't know whether to be appalled or laugh that the idea would even be put forward... It seems outrageously absurd to me!

I suspect, the point of the "grand standing" exercise, from those that put it forward, was to make two key points in reference to the existing law suit in Oklahoma about the First Amendment to the Constitution.


1) You really do want "Separation of Church and State"

2) If not, then how about equal time based on the right to Freedom of Religeon?

I think the world has proven many times in the past and in our present time... "Separation of Church and State" is in the best interest of all of us.

No need to list examples of oppression, bigotry, violence and civil war that have resulted from mixing government and religion. But you don't have to look into the distant past to find examples. Religious oppression in other parts of the world is happening right now, as we discuss our Freedom of Religion!

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by JourneyOfLife

I don't know whether to be appalled or laugh that the idea would even be put forward... It seems outrageously absurd to me!

I suspect, the point of the "grand standing" exercise, from those that put it forward, was to make two key points in reference to the existing law suit in Oklahoma about the First Amendment to the Constitution.


1) You really do want "Separation of Church and State"

2) If not, then how about equal time based on the right to Freedom of Religeon?

I think the world has proven many times in the past and in our present time... "Separation of Church and State" is in the best interest of all of us.

No need to list examples of oppression, bigotry, violence and civil war that have resulted from mixing government and religion. But you don't have to look into the distant past to find examples. Religious oppression in other parts of the world is happening right now, as we discuss our Freedom of Religion!

The point of my original post was not to discuss the issue of separation of Church and State. The point was that someone who does not live in that area,( the group behind this is from New York,} someone who does not understand the daily lives of the majority of those who live there wants to come in with something that represents evil in most cultures, in order to stir up the issue. I think that change could be made in so many ways that are not so inflammatory and hurtful and just plain spiteful.


It goes against every thing I feel is right.

[TexaninVA]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

The fair thing to do would be: Remove the ten commandment monument and block all religious statues. Even minorities have rights in America. The thought that Christianity should be the chosen faith over all others is uncaring and possibly one of the reasons that Christianity is declining faster than any other faith in the USA. Islam is the fastest growing of the major faiths in this country.

Wake up Christians before you drive away so many followers that you become a minority American faith.

I think the historical reality is that America was founded as a Christian nation ... by and large, and even if imperfectly. Thus, I would have to disagree with the notion that all things Christian should be removed.

[perrjojo]

Why does a New York based group want to erect a statue in Oklahoma? Why not erect it in New York? I am Agnostic but this is blatant antagonism. Jesh! Oh, and by the way what part of the 10 commandments is offensive or morally wrong? The mention of God could be applied to any belief.

[onslowe]

Just read, aside from numerous conclusory broad statements, that "Jupiter, Thor, Baal and Zeus" did a lot more good than harm. TOTV is a hoot. Not only do I learn that what I thought were mythical deities are in fact, or at least were in fact real, but that they did a lot more good than harm. Like what specifically?

[mrdarcy]

Not to worry. The One whose birthday we just celebrated 2 weeks ago said He intends to reign forever. No one is going to get away with anything. He appears quite serious about that.

[KayakerNC]

Originally Posted by mrdarcy

Not to worry. The One whose birthday we just celebrated 2 weeks ago said He intends to reign forever. No one is going to get away with anything. He appears quite serious about that.

Really? He told you that?