[JeffAVEWS]

For what it's worth I found this, although I'm not sure of what Jefferson was saying.

Main article: Establishment Clause

Thomas Jefferson wrote with respect to the First Amendment and its restriction on the legislative branch of the federal government in an 1802 letter[9] to the Danbury Baptists (a religious minority concerned about the dominant position of the Congregationalist church in Connecticut):

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their "legislature" should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

[JeffAVEWS]

Originally Posted by onslowe

Just read, aside from numerous conclusory broad statements, that "Jupiter, Thor, Baal and Zeus" did a lot more good than harm. TOTV is a hoot. Not only do I learn that what I thought were mythical deities are in fact, or at least were in fact real, but that they did a lot more good than harm. Like what specifically?

It's been said that if God had not created man, man would have created God.

I which man has done.

[Easyrider]

Originally Posted by mrdarcy

Not to worry. The One whose birthday we just celebrated 2 weeks ago said He intends to reign forever. No one is going to get away with anything. He appears quite serious about that.

Matthew 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

[donb9006]

Originally Posted by mrdarcy

Not to worry. The One whose birthday we just celebrated 2 weeks ago said He intends to reign forever. No one is going to get away with anything. He appears quite serious about that.

Originally Posted by KayakerNC

Really? He told you that?

The FACT is...he didn't "tell" anyone anything that can be confirmed. He didn't write anything down. It appears for whatever reason, he didn't feel it important to document any of his teachings. I find that VERY strange...

[Golfingnut]

Changing with or adapting to the circumstances of the world we live in today is a good thing and should not be thought of as negative. Most of us adapt to changes in technology and medical advances yet hold on to misguided and misinterpreted biblical writings from people and a time when the understanding of medical treatment for the sick was to drain some blood out of the patient. The good ole days are in the future not the past. The OP is correct that using Satan to make a point was not nice, but sometimes it takes a strong statement to get the attention of the complacent establishment. In America, any action to portray Christianity as THE FAITH for this great nation (in my opinion) is the height of DISRESPECT to every non-Christian.

[redwitch]

Originally Posted by donb9006

The FACT is...he didn't "tell" anyone anything that can be confirmed. He didn't write anything down. It appears for whatever reason, he didn't feel it important to document any of his teachings. I find that VERY strange...

Odds are Jesus was illiterate. Would make it difficult for him to write anything down, don't you think?

We can debate Christianity until the cows come home and pigs fly and still be no closer to the truth than we are today or 2000 years in the past.

Going back to Gracie's original argument, I don't see petitioning for this statue as being mean or bad. I see it as making a very loud, bold statement. If Oklahoma feels it can put the Ten Commandments in its state offices, then Satanists, Hindi, Buddhists, et al. should have the right to put another religious item in that same area. Do remember that it is not only Satanists asking for this right -- there are a few religions asking to put their statues there. It just happens that the statue of Satan is the one the news media will mention -- it's the most offensive to the most people.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by redwitch

Odds are Jesus was illiterate. Would make it difficult for him to write anything down, don't you think?

We can debate Christianity until the cows come home and pigs fly and still be no closer to the truth than we are today or 2000 years in the past.

Going back to Gracie's original argument, I don't see petitioning for this statue as being mean or bad. I see it as making a very loud, bold statement. If Oklahoma feels it can put the Ten Commandments in its state offices, then Satanists, Hindi, Buddhists, et al. should have the right to put another religious item in that same area. Do remember that it is not only Satanists asking for this right -- there are a few religions asking to put their statues there. It just happens that the statue of Satan is the one the news media will mention -- it's the most offensive to the most people.

That was an excellent summary and you have the ability to see to the bottom line.


There are other issues that nag at me. WHY do people do these things? What motivates them? Do they feel left out? Are they jealous? Why do they think that THEIR philosophy of the world is better than the majority's? I think of them as intellectual elitists who have no caring for those who find comfort in religion. As I have said before, I agree with the separation of Church and State, but wonder why people behind this particular act, acted.


As you say, Redwitch, they know that the press would pick it up and run with it.


I will ask that this thread be closed. I have said what I wanted to say and tried to listen with my mind and my heart to what others had to say.


I believe as I get older that there are far more questions than answers.

[Golfingnut]

This action was taken in defense of the minorities faiths that SHOULD be able to enjoy the same rights, privileges and freedoms of the majority. No hate, only an honest quest for fair and equal justice. There are thousands of reasons that the majority should and do have the final word, but the right to believe and practice in the faith of our choice was written into the constitution in the good ole days. Change the constitution to allow only Christianity in public places or allow them all to express their beliefs without all this persecution. We are a country of democratic laws and not a society where only a certain group decides what is or is not Ok. If you put the shoe on the other foot, this is a simple issue. We have overcome that mentality for women and are working hard to accomplish fairness for Gay Americans and more. Our faith must be treated fairly as well.

[donb9006]

Originally Posted by redwitch

Odds are Jesus was illiterate. Would make it difficult for him to write anything down, don't you think?

We can debate Christianity until the cows come home and pigs fly and still be no closer to the truth than we are today or 2000 years in the past.

Going back to Gracie's original argument, I don't see petitioning for this statue as being mean or bad. I see it as making a very loud, bold statement. If Oklahoma feels it can put the Ten Commandments in its state offices, then Satanists, Hindi, Buddhists, et al. should have the right to put another religious item in that same area. Do remember that it is not only Satanists asking for this right -- there are a few religions asking to put their statues there. It just happens that the statue of Satan is the one the news media will mention -- it's the most offensive to the most people.

"God" can't read??? Really???

He could perforn miracles...but he couldn't read...and people don't find that troubling? He's trying the "spread his message to all mankind"...yet he doesn't learn to write...and people don't find that troubling? I do...

[onslowe]

Perhaps you sincerely are troubled. You've mentioned it twice, and seem to be fixated on this. Some well intentioned suggestions to hopefully lessen your upset. First, we Christians believe in a Trinitarian God - God the father, God the Son and the Holy Ghost. Now, we also believe that God the Son was incarnated as man, fully and completely. He was a carpenter's son who lived in a largely illiterate society. Jesus, like most Jews of that era, learned the Scriptures and teachings through oral tradition. He was Man, and yes he was and is God - without the quotation marks which seem to have no place.

Ignorance, it is said, is most often the result of condescending prejudice without prior examination. Maybe put the Gospels and Epistles to an 'acid test' to your intellectual satisfaction, and also perhaps read the historian Josephus.

Jesus' purpose was not to write, it was much larger, and blessedly benefited you and me eternally. I hope your sincere upset is lessened a bit. I know I will pray for you.

[donb9006]

Originally Posted by onslowe

Perhaps you sincerely are troubled. You've mentioned it twice, and seem to be fixated on this. Some well intentioned suggestions to hopefully lessen your upset. First, we Christians believe in a Trinitarian God - God the father, God the Son and the Holy Ghost. Now, we also believe that God the Son was incarnated as man, fully and completely. He was a carpenter's son who lived in a largely illiterate society. Jesus, like most Jews of that era, learned the Scriptures and teachings through oral tradition. He was Man, and yes he was and is God - without the quotation marks which seem to have no place.

Ignorance, it is said, is most often the result of condescending prejudice without prior examination. Maybe put the Gospels and Epistles to an 'acid test' to your intellectual satisfaction, and also perhaps read the historian Josephus.

Jesus' purpose was not to write, it was much larger, and blessedly benefited you and me eternally. I hope your sincere upset is lessened a bit. I know I will pray for you.

That's the thing...I have. And it's how I've come to my conclusion. Nobody wrote anything down...at the time. I'll ask again...why? It's ALL written after the fact...30+ years after the fact. Tell me, how well do you remember what a preacher you saw once said to you 30 years ago? Why didn't Jesus hook up with anyone who was literate?

And Josephus, the Jewish historian, he wrote all his "history" many years after the fact through memory. Look it up if you don't believe me. He sat down in his elder years and "wrote the history" as he remembered it.

People really should study the things they base their lives upon...just saying.

Your "religion" is dependent on where you are born. If we were in the middle east, you'd be arguing why Muhammad is the way to salvation. If we were in India, it'd be Hinduism you'd be arguing for. We happen to be in he US where it's Christianity that everyone believes "is the way".

I'm not here to drive anyone away from their religion...only to open their eyes to the fact that it's all written and interpreted many years after the fact. What you "know" is someones opinion many years after the event happened. Things written a hundred or more years later are taken as "gospel"...as the truth. But we don't know what really happened.

I'm simply saying...for "God" to spread his word to all of mankind...he could have done it MUCH differently and more effectively. If "I" were Gods messenger...I'd have learned to write...and I'd have written down what I wanted people to follow. As it is now...we have 5000 different interpretations of what Jesus meant. Why? Because Jesus didn't write anything down. Poor foresight? From God?

[graciegirl]

Please close this thread. Please.

[donb9006]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

Please close this thread. Please.

Why? It's just getting interesting. You should know more than what "they" tell you about your religion. It's like living your life ONLY knowing what your parents chose to tell you. Is this a "Christian" only forum? No other sides get a say?

[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by donb9006

That's the thing...I have. And it's how I've come to my conclusion. Nobody wrote anything down...at the time. I'll ask again...why? It's ALL written after the fact...30+ years after the fact. Tell me, how well do you remember what a preacher you saw once said to you 30 years ago? Why didn't Jesus hook up with anyone who was literate?

And Josephus, the Jewish historian, he wrote all his "history" many years after the fact through memory. Look it up if you don't believe me. He sat down in his elder years and "wrote the history" as he remembered it.

People really should study the things they base their lives upon...just saying.

Your "religion" is dependent on where you are born. If we were in the middle east, you'd be arguing why Muhammad is the way to salvation. If we were in India, it'd be Hinduism you'd be arguing for. We happen to be in he US where it's Christianity that everyone believes "is the way".

I'm not here to drive anyone away from their religion...only to open their eyes to the fact that it's all written and interpreted many years after the fact. What you "know" is someones opinion many years after the event happened. Things written a hundred or more years later are taken as "gospel"...as the truth. But we don't know what really happened.

I'm simply saying...for "God" to spread his word to all of mankind...he could have done it MUCH differently and more effectively. If "I" were Gods messenger...I'd have learned to write...and I'd have written down what I wanted people to follow. As it is now...we have 5000 different interpretations of what Jesus meant. Why? Because Jesus didn't write anything down. Poor foresight? From God?

Well said and I see it just as you do. Great post. This is a very civil and insightful thread that is followed and commented on by many of us members with wonderful thoughts and information from all. Please admin, allow this one to run out of gas of its own accord.

[ilovetv]

Originally Posted by donb9006

The FACT is...he didn't "tell" anyone anything that can be confirmed. He didn't write anything down. It appears for whatever reason, he didn't feel it important to document any of his teachings. I find that VERY strange...

Actually, Jesus DID author and "write down" EVERYTHING about Himself, in the Hebrew Scriptures He-GOD inspired men to write in the Scrolls, in which He was schooled in the Temple and taught as a Rabbi (and hence was not "illiterate"!!!!!!!!!).

John 3
Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;
2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God....
5 ...Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Luke 24
25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?”
27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

Luke 24 NASB - The Resurrection - But on the first day - Bible Gateway