[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by eweissenbach

While I Mostly agree with the view that folks like Sharpton are part of the problem and not part of the solution, I would add that folks like Limbaugh and Beck are part of the problem on the other side. You also make a sweeping generalization in "our bringing up" which sounds elitist and racist.

Why do you think it sounds elitist and racist? Why are those words politically correct when they are hurting to people who only mean to explain their feelings. Many of us were taught responsibility in matters of this kind. We may feel what we think is justifiable anger about a lot of things but most of us Villagers were taught to have self control and not loot and burn when we are disappointed in government decisions that seem very unfair..

[eweissenbach]

Originally Posted by pivo

Infact did we protest or loot after the O.J. Simpson trial ,, no ,,,why? because in our bringing up by responsible people taught us better,

Originally Posted by graciegirl

Why do you think it sounds elitist and racist? Why are those words politically correct when they are hurting to people who only mean to explain their feelings. Many of us were taught responsibility in matters of this kind. We may feel what we think is justifiable anger about a lot of things but most of us Villagers were taught to have self control and not loot and burn when we are disappointed in government decisions that seem very unfair..

In fact did WE (we implies all white people in this sentence) protest or loot after the O.J. Simpson trial, no..... Why? Because in our bringing up by RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE taught us better. (Implies WE were brought up by responsible people [again, every white person] as opposed to those OTHER PEOPLE, who were apparently all brought up by irresponsible people. Sounds rather elitist and racist to me, but we can agree to disagree.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by eweissenbach

In fact did WE (we implies all white people in this sentence) protest or loot after the O.J. Simpson trial, no..... Why? Because in our bringing up by RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE taught us better. (Implies WE were brought up by responsible people [again, every white person] as opposed to those OTHER PEOPLE, who were apparently all brought up by irresponsible people. Sounds rather elitist and racist to me, but we can agree to disagree.

We only know how to be us. We are proud of matters like this where we as a group; seniors, Wasps, AAP's,(African American Protestants) Americans, Midwesterners, mountain people, coastal people, people who pay taxes, people who work, WE were taught these principles. That is what is different in many cases. We now have a new group of urban poor; new immigrants and many if not most have strong family values. I bet those new urban poor will work themselves up to rich in a generation or two because they are not too proud to work and to keep their temper... and then they can be maligned for doing so. That is how this conversation feels to me. ANYONE CAN LEARN SELF CONTROL. It has nothing to do with race. I am so proud of the protesters in New York. What do you think is the difference?

[eweissenbach]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

We only know how to be us. We are proud of matters like this where we as a group; seniors, Wasps, AAP's,(Afican American Protestants) Americans, Midwesterners, mountain people, coastal people, people who pay taxes, people who work, WE were taught these principles. That is what is different in many cases. We now have a new group of urban poor; new immigrants and many if not most have strong family values. I bet those new urban poor will work themselves up to rich in a generation or two because they are not too proud to work and to keep their temper... and then they can be maligned for doing so. That is how this conversation feels to me. ANYONE CAN LEARN SELF CONTROL. It has nothing to do with race.

I agree absolutely to your last few sentences. I apparently am not making myself clear. My objection is to the broad generalization that all white people, even of our age, were raised the right way. Many if not most may well have been, but many were not. Some who were not rose above it, while some unfortunately did not. I remember in the sixties how blacks, as well as whites who joined their cause, were treated and murdered in the Deep South by many in the white majority.

[pivo]

Weissenbach:
Maybe you can answer my question to you, No my parents did not tell me to obey the law nor respect the police, be honest it some way was instilled in me and all my friendsI grew up with, ,You are also a product of all your neighbors, We would never disobey a cop or any of our seniors, Now compare my bringing up to the blacks today there is no comparison they are unruly, don't respect their elders and so on not all but the majority, you think a black parent today would turn their children away from the teaching of the leaders , It's all about how you are raised , example look at Browns stepfather two charges of selling dope, spent five years in prison the mother is up on charges of beating up some one selling t-shirts and hospitalized .

[tomwed]

Many have suggested that we need leadership. Many respect Rev. King. After reading this speech I'm left with the feeling that not much has changed in 50 years. He offers a solution that still feels valid.

"The Other America"

Speech by
Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Grosse Pointe High School - March 14, 1968


Rev. Dr. Harry Meserve, Bishop Emrich, my dear friend Congressman Conyers, ladies and gentlemen.

I need not pause to say how very delighted I am to be here tonight and to have the great privilege of discussing with you some of the vital issues confronting our nation and confronting the world. It is always a very rich and rewarding experience when I can take a brief break from the day-to-day demands of our struggle for freedom and human dignity and discuss the issues involved in that struggle with concerned people of good will all over our nation and all over the world, and I certainly want to express my deep personal appreciation to you for inviting me to occupy this significant platform.

I want to discuss the race problem tonight and I want to discuss it very honestly. I still believe that freedom is the bonus you receive for telling the truth. Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. And I do not see how we will ever solve the turbulent problem of race confronting our nation until there is an honest confrontation with it and a willing search for the truth and a willingness to admit the truth when we discover it. And so I want to use as a title for my lecture tonight, "The Other America." And I use this title because there are literally two Americas. Every city in our country has this kind of dualism, this schizophrenia, split at so many parts, and so every city ends up being two cities rather than one. There are two Americas. One America is beautiful for situation. In this America, millions of people have the milk of prosperity and the honey of equality flowing before them. This America is the habitat of millions of people who have food and material necessities for their bodies, culture and education for their minds, freedom and human dignity for their spirits. In this America children grow up in the sunlight of opportunity. But there is another America. This other America has a daily ugliness about it that transforms the buoyancy of hope into the fatigue of despair. In this other America, thousands and thousands of people, men in particular walk the streets in search for jobs that do not exist. In this other America, millions of people are forced to live in vermin-filled, distressing housing conditions where they do not have the privilege of having wall-to-wall carpeting, but all too often, they end up with wall-to-wall rats and roaches. Almost forty percent of the Negro families of America live in sub-standard housing conditions. In this other America, thousands of young people are deprived of an opportunity to get an adequate education. Every year thousands finish high school reading at a seventh, eighth and sometimes ninth grade level. Not because they're dumb, not because they don't have the native intelligence, but because the schools are so inadequate, so over-crowded, so devoid of quality, so segregated if you will, that the best in these minds can never come out. Probably the most critical problem in the other America is the economic problem. There are so many other people in the other America who can never make ends meet because their incomes are far too low if they have incomes, and their jobs are so devoid of quality. And so in this other America, unemployment is a reality and under-employment is a reality. (I'll just wait until our friend can have her say) (applause). I'll just wait until things are restored and. . .everybody talks about law and order. (applause)

Now before I was so rudely interrupted… (applause), and I might say that it was my understanding that we're going to have a question and answer period, and if anybody disagrees with me, you will have the privilege, the opportunity to raise a question if you think I'm a traitor, then you'll have an opportunity to ask me about my traitorness and we will give you that opportunity.

Now let me get back to the point that I was trying to bring out about the economic problem. And that is one of the most critical problems that we face in America today. We find in the other America unemployment constantly rising to astronomical proportions and black people generally find themselves living in a literal depression. All too often when there is mass unemployment in the black community, it's referred to as a social problem and when there is mass unemployment in the white community, it's referred to as a depression. But there is no basic difference. The fact is, that the negro faces a literal depression all over the U.S. The unemployment rate on the basis of statistics from the labor department is about 8.8 per cent in the black community. But these statistics only take under consideration individuals who were once in the labor market, or individuals who go to employment offices to seek employment. But they do not take under consideration the thousands of people who have given up, who have lost motivation, the thousands of people who have had so many doors closed in their faces that they feel defeated and they no longer go out and look for jobs, the thousands who've come to feel that life is a long and desolate corridor with no exit signs. These people are considered the discouraged and when you add the discouraged to the individuals who can't be calculated through statistics in the unemployment category, the unemployment rate in the negro community probably goes to 16 or 17 percent. And among black youth, it is in some communities as high as 40 and 45 percent. But the problem of unemployment is not the only problem. There is the problem of under-employment, and there are thousands and thousand, I would say millions of people in the negro community who are poverty stricken - not because they are not working but because they receive wages so low that they cannot begin to function in the main stream of the economic life of our nation. Most of the poverty stricken people of America are persons who are working every day and they end up getting part-time wages for full-time work. So the vast majority of negroes in America find themselves perishing on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. This has caused a great deal of bitterness. It has caused a great deal of agony. It has caused ache and anguish. It has caused great despair, and we have seen the angered expressions of this despair and this bitterness in the violent rebellions that have taken place in cities all over our country. Now I think my views on non-violence are pretty generally known. I still believe that non-violence is the most potent weapon available to the negro in his struggle for justice and freedom in the U.S.

Now let me relieve you a bit. I've been in the struggle a long time now, (applause) and I've conditioned myself to some things that are much more painful than discourteous people not allowing you to speak, so if they feel that they can discourage me, they'll be up here all night.

Now I wanted to say something about the fact that we have lived over these last two or three summers with agony and we have seen our cities going up in flames. And I would be the first to say that I am still committed to militant, powerful, massive, non*-violence as the most potent weapon in grappling with the problem from a direct action point of view. I'm absolutely convinced that a riot merely intensifies the fears of the white community while relieving the guilt. And I feel that we must always work with an effective, powerful weapon and method that brings about tangible results. But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the negro poor has worsened over the last twelve or fifteen years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity.

Now every year about this time, our newspapers and our televisions and people generally start talking about the long hot summer ahead. What always bothers me is that the long hot summer has always been preceded by a long cold winter. And the great problem is that the nation has not used its winters creatively enough to develop the program, to develop the kind of massive acts of concern that will bring about a solution to the problem. And so we must still face the fact that our nation's summers of riots are caused by our nations winters of delay. As long as justice is postponed we always stand on the verge of these darker nights of social disruption. The question now, is whether America is prepared to do something massively, affirmatively and forthrightly about the great problem we face in the area of race and the problem which can bring the curtain of doom down on American civilization if it is not solved. And I would like to talk for the next few minutes about some of the things that must be done if we are to solve this problem.

The first thing I would like to mention is that there must be a recognition on the part of everybody in this nation that America is still a racist country. Now however unpleasant that sounds, it is the truth. And we will never solve the problem of racism until there is a recognition of the fact that racism still stands at the center of so much of our nation and we must see racism for what it is. It is the nymph of an inferior people. It is the notion that one group has all of the knowledge, all of the insights, all of the purity, all of the work, all of the dignity. And another group is worthless, on a lower level of humanity, inferior. To put it in philosophical language, racism is not based on some empirical generalization which, after some studies, would come to conclusion that these people are behind because of environmental conditions. Racism is based on an ontological affirmation. It is the notion that the very being of a people is inferior. And their ultimate logic of racism is genocide. Hitler was a very sick man. He was one of the great tragedies of history. But he was very honest. He took his racism to its logical conclusion. The minute his racism caused him to sickly feel and go about saying that there was something innately inferior about the Jew he ended up killing six million Jews. The ultimate logic of racism is genocide, and if one says that one is not good enough to have a job that is a solid quality job, if one is not good enough to have access to public accommodations, if one is not good enough to have the right to vote, if one is not good enough to live next door to him, if one is not good enough to marry his daughter because of his race. Then at that moment that person is saying that that person who is not good to do all of this is not fit to exist or to live. And that is the ultimate logic of racism. And we've got to see that this still exists in American society. And until it is removed, there will be people walking the streets of live and living in their humble dwellings feeling that they are nobody, feeling that they have no dignity and feeling that they are not respected. The first thing that must be on the agenda of our nation is to get rid of racism.

to read the rest click here

[eweissenbach]

Originally Posted by pivo

Weissenbach:
Maybe you can answer my question to you, No my parents did not tell me to obey the law nor respect the police, be honest it some way was instilled in me and all my friendsI grew up with, ,You are also a product of all your neighbors, We would never disobey a cop or any of our seniors, Now compare my bringing up to the blacks today there is no comparison they are unruly, don't respect their elders and so on not all but the majority, you think a black parent today would turn their children away from the teaching of the leaders , It's all about how you are raised , example look at Browns stepfather two charges of selling dope, spent five years in prison the mother is up on charges of beating up some one selling t-shirts and hospitalized .

We are obviously not communicating effectively. I will take responsibility - I am sorry.

[xNYer]

There is a deal of sterotyping of the black community on this subject. To excuse sterotyping, comments wil be made which state something like not all of them (obvious who that is) but so many, don't raise their children properly.

What is like to feel like you re treated differently because of your race. Do policemen profile, is that ok, and how would you feel if you were the one being profiled. I don't see any indication here that people see an alternate viewpoint or accept there may be some complexity in viewing this issue.

[eweissenbach]

Originally Posted by tomwed

Many have suggested that we need leadership. Many respect Rev. King. After reading this speech I'm left with the feeling that not much has changed in 50 years. He offers a solution that still feels valid.

"The Other America"

Speech by
Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Grosse Pointe High School - March 14, 1968


I want to discuss the race problem tonight and I
to read the rest click here

The man was extraordinarily wise and eloquent.

[Pointer]

Originally Posted by Rags123

The presentation of this situation is driving us all apart.

And why can we not discuss racial profiling. If an important discussion is to take place, everything should be on the table. This is a one sided conversation, and that is what makes it a divider. Do we ever hear the truth. We hear about cops killing black youth..that is it. Is that ll that is happening...I think not, but some will not engage in REAL conversation because it is not comfortable and good conversation ending up with solutions is normally not all that comfy.

I think the issue is bigger then what we are privy to on the media. And we need to have dialog. I'm rather impressed at how the New Yorkers are handling this. They handled 911 so I guess they can handle just about anything. Nationwide there are far to many people being lost to gun fire. Our children aren't safe and we need to re evaluate. Instead of take sides and nothing getting accomplished we need to think of how we can do things differently.
My hope is that future generations will look back at this period in history as being pretty primitive and not the beginning of the end. Other civilizations have come and gone and ours can too.

[Rags123]

Originally Posted by Pointer

I think the issue is bigger then what we are privy to on the media. And we need to have dialog. I'm rather impressed at how the New Yorkers are handling this. They handled 911 so I guess they can handle just about anything. Nationwide there are far to many people being lost to gun fire. Our children aren't safe and we need to re evaluate. Instead of take sides and nothing getting accomplished we need to think of how we can do things differently.
My hope is that future generations will look back at this period in history as being pretty primitive and not the beginning of the end. Other civilizations have come and gone and ours can too.

I agree and have always agreed that dialogue is needed quickly.

But dialogue assumes that it is a two way conversation. Read some of the posts on here on this thread at this minor level. If you say how "we were brought up" you are called on it and that guilt trip begins which tells you not to say that...it is bad.

If you hear racial profiling...hey, why can we not talk about that and how the police use it to PROTECT EVERYONE ?

You see,there will be NO dialogue, simply speeches, when any incident between black and white is seen through the color of the skin.

The two incidents in question, in NYC and in Ferguson, had predictable endings and whether the skin color was black or white would not have altered
the endings. We have leaders who see it all through the prism of skin color and thus there will be no dialogue.....just protestation and consistent and ongoing laying of guilt on others.

That guilt that is transmitted is power to many.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by xNYer

There is a deal of sterotyping of the black community on this subject. To excuse sterotyping, comments wil be made which state something like not all of them (obvious who that is) but so many, don't raise their children properly.

What is like to feel like you re treated differently because of your race. Do policemen profile, is that ok, and how would you feel if you were the one being profiled. I don't see any indication here that people see an alternate viewpoint or accept there may be some complexity in viewing this issue.

Yes they profile. When they profile me, they see a law abiding old lady. It is just common sense to look at ...........um...trends? That goes against every bit of common sense in the world to not summarize. If it looks like a duck it isn't a moose.


I pretty much guess what people are like by where they wear their pants. Or where they don't wear their pants.

Like on bandstands. Of course we all profile. It is stupid not to protect yourself from trouble.

[xNYer]

So let me see if i understand your position.

If you are an older white woman you will be profiled and treated a certain way.

If you are black it is appropriate to be profiled and treated in a different manner, regardless of your own personal behavior?

Since it is common sense to profile, it is also ok for the police to treat black individuals differently then whites. We should view each of us not as individuals, but as a member of a group and treated accordingly?

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by xNYer

So let me see if i understand your position.

If you are an older white woman you will be profiled and treated a certain way.

If you are black it is appropriate to be profiled and treated in a different manner, regardless of your own personal behavior?

Since it is common sense to profile, it is also ok for the police to treat black individuals differently then whites. We should view each of us not as individuals, but as a member of a group and treated accordingly?

If you were to take a lie detector test, you would have to say that young urban poor men in downtown areas scare you. BLACK, WHITE OR PURPLE.

When large groups of people of a group, such as KKK dress alike, it is wise to consider they are up to no good. I would try so hard to make a go of it if people were jumping to judgment about my group. Watch our recent immigrants. YES they will be profiled.We will see what they do about adverse opinion. My money is on them. Everyone does and if you say you don't you are not being honest. Some people think all Catholic priests are pedophiles. I personally don't think so, but I think a lot of them are gay, and there is nothing wrong with that. People THINK things based on what they see and the behavior of people. I have a general opinion about people as a group who ONLY watch MSNBC.

People think nothing of ridiculing and calling people Rednecks, especially those from the part of the country that doesn't farm.

[billethkid]

I will participate in the straying from my own threads intent because I have had enough about the negative aspects continually presented about profiling.

An example......high crime in an area with high population of people of color....the jails and prisons in the area are overpopulated with a similar content of folks of color. Now just what do you think the watch commander is advising his people to look for? His people include many folks of color?

Will you all be happier when the only thing one is allowed to report is that a person robbed and killed another person today....go look for them......not white! not black! not male! not female! not young! not old!......get it? How stupid is this.....however that is what it seems will make the special interest, racism promoting few in this country......MOST OF WHOM HAVE NOTHING INVESTED IN THE ISSUE!!!!

Yes it is an opinion and y'all are entitled but let it be know the minority report (NOT RACE!!!!) is hearby acknowledged.