[kp11364]

In regard to a recently closed thread about rising water levels, try this:

1. Fill a drinking glass half-full with water
2. Add 2-3 ice cubes. Look at the water level.
3. Put the glass aside; let all the ice melt. You will see that the water level remains the same. Why? Because the amount of water remains the same, regardless of the state of the water.

[Stu from NYC]

Very interesting. Should be an interesting thread. Thanks for sharing.

[tuccillo]

The only issue is the melting ice is generally not in the ocean. Carry on.

Originally Posted by kp11364

In regard to a recently closed thread about rising water levels, try this:

1. Fill a drinking glass half-full with water
2. Add 2-3 ice cubes. Look at the water level.
3. Put the glass aside; let all the ice melt. You will see that the water level remains the same. Why? Because the amount of water remains the same, regardless of the state of the water.

[Whitley]

Originally Posted by kp11364

In regard to a recently closed thread about rising water levels, try this:

1. Fill a drinking glass half-full with water
2. Add 2-3 ice cubes. Look at the water level.
3. Put the glass aside; let all the ice melt. You will see that the water level remains the same. Why? Because the amount of water remains the same, regardless of the state of the water.

Be patient with me, my masters is in corporate finance. The first law of thermodynamics, matter can neither be created nor destroyed. When I was much younger I would consider that all of the water that has been or will be is already here. Ocean has evaporation, clouds form, when a certain saturation is reached it rains (or snows) and the water falls to the earth. It may land on land as snow or ice or rain. Rain that falls anywhere, or frozen precipitation that falls in water will flow back to the seas. (Kind of makes me wonder about the water we drink, but that too makes its way back I guess). I would propose the sea level can increase based on melting of ice on land. Icebergs or glaciers floating in the sea should have no effect on the sea level when it melts. Only ice now on land, as it melts, would add to the sea level. Overly simplified but I need it to be. Sorry if I am boring or wrong. I understand the above. What I do not understand is how the sea level could increase over 100 years, 1.5 feet off Main, 1 foot in NYC, 1.5 feet in Chesapeake bay and the outer banks of NC, and only 1 foot in Miami. These are all part of the same continent on the Atlantic. Can someone explain it to me, simply? Maybe after that we can discuss how water we drink gets back to the ocean (I fear the answer)

[Pugchief]

Originally Posted by kp11364

In regard to a recently closed thread about rising water levels, try this:

1. Fill a drinking glass half-full with water
2. Add 2-3 ice cubes. Look at the water level.
3. Put the glass aside; let all the ice melt. You will see that the water level remains the same. Why? Because the amount of water remains the same, regardless of the state of the water.

Incorrect:

"Water is actually a very unusual substance because solid water (called ice) is less dense than liquid water. The density of ice is 0.92 g/mL, which means that if you take one gram of water and put in the freezer, when you take it out it will have expanded in volume and take up more space than when it was liquid."
source

[retiredguy123]

Originally Posted by kp11364

In regard to a recently closed thread about rising water levels, try this:

1. Fill a drinking glass half-full with water
2. Add 2-3 ice cubes. Look at the water level.
3. Put the glass aside; let all the ice melt. You will see that the water level remains the same. Why? Because the amount of water remains the same, regardless of the state of the water.

You are correct with respect to floating ice that melts. Actually, ice floats in water with 89 percent of the ice being below the water surface, and 11 percent being above the water level. This is true with floating icebergs in the ocean. But, not all ice in nature is floating. A lot of glaciers are actually located on the ground and are not floating in water. So, when they melt, the water level will rise significantly.

[tuccillo]

The ice that is melting is not in the ocean. As the oceans get warmer, the volume expands.

Originally Posted by Whitley

Be patient with me, my masters is in corporate finance. The first law of thermodynamics, matter can neither be created nor destroyed. When I was much younger I would consider that all of the water that has been or will be is already here. Ocean has evaporation, clouds for, when a certain saturation is reached it rains (or snows) and the water falls to the earth. It may land on land as snow or ice or rain. Rain will flow back to the seas. (Kind of makes me wonder about the water we drink, but that too makes its way back I guess). I would propose the sea level can increase based on water in frozen form being on land as ice. Icebergs or glaciers floating in the sea should have no effect on the sea level when it melts. Only ice now on land, as it melts, would add to the sea level. Overly simplified but I need it to be. Sorry if I am boring or wrong. I understand the above. What I do not understand is how the sea level could increase over 100 years 1.5 feet on main, 1 foot in NYC, 1.5 feet in Chesapeake bay and the outer banks of NC, and only 1 foot in Miami. These are all part of the same continent on the Atlantic. Can someone explain it to me, simply? Maybe after that we can discuss how water we drink gets back to the ocean (I fear the answer)

[Whitley]

Originally Posted by Pugchief

Incorrect:

"Water is actually a very unusual substance because solid water (called ice) is less dense than liquid water. The density of ice is 0.92 g/mL, which means that if you take one gram of water and put in the freezer, when you take it out it will have expanded in volume and take up more space than when it was liquid."
source

I believe I disagree with you. The density is different but weight the same. Fill a cup 3/4 of the way, add enough ice to raise the level to the rim. When the ice melts the water level should be exactly the same (except for very little negligeable evaporation). Archimedes Principle.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by kp11364

In regard to a recently closed thread about rising water levels, try this:

1. Fill a drinking glass half-full with water
2. Add 2-3 ice cubes. Look at the water level.
3. Put the glass aside; let all the ice melt. You will see that the water level remains the same. Why? Because the amount of water remains the same, regardless of the state of the water.

A few more experiments:

1. Fill your glass half full and mark the level. Now slowly slide an ice cube into the water. You will see that the water level goes up. This is what happens when a glacier calves or an ice shelf breaks off and falls into the ocean.

2. Fill your glass half full and mark the level. Now hold an ice cube above the glass until it has all melted. You will see that the water level goes up. This is what happens when a glacier on land melts and its water flows to the ocean.

3. Fill a kettle 2/3 full and mark the level. Now put it on a burner and heat it to just below boiling. You will see that the water level goes up. This is what happens when any water gets warmer and expands.

[retiredguy123]

Originally Posted by Pugchief

Incorrect:

"Water is actually a very unusual substance because solid water (called ice) is less dense than liquid water. The density of ice is 0.92 g/mL, which means that if you take one gram of water and put in the freezer, when you take it out it will have expanded in volume and take up more space than when it was liquid."
source

I believe that the OP is correct with respect to the water level after the ice melts. Before it melts, part of the ice cubes are above the water level. But, when the ice melts, it become more dense and has less volume, but it is no longer floating and the total volume evens out. So, the water level stays the same. If that makes sense.

[Keefelane66]

Originally Posted by Whitley

Be patient with me, my masters is in corporate finance. The first law of thermodynamics, matter can neither be created nor destroyed. When I was much younger I would consider that all of the water that has been or will be is already here. Ocean has evaporation, clouds form, when a certain saturation is reached it rains (or snows) and the water falls to the earth. It may land on land as snow or ice or rain. Rain that falls anywhere, or frozen precipitation that falls in water will flow back to the seas. (Kind of makes me wonder about the water we drink, but that too makes its way back I guess). I would propose the sea level can increase based on melting of ice on land. Icebergs or glaciers floating in the sea should have no effect on the sea level when it melts. Only ice now on land, as it melts, would add to the sea level. Overly simplified but I need it to be. Sorry if I am boring or wrong. I understand the above. What I do not understand is how the sea level could increase over 100 years, 1.5 feet off Main, 1 foot in NYC, 1.5 feet in Chesapeake bay and the outer banks of NC, and only 1 foot in Miami. These are all part of the same continent on the Atlantic. Can someone explain it to me, simply? Maybe after that we can discuss how water we drink gets back to the ocean (I fear the answer)

Has to do with tides. The equator has the least rise in tides between high and low.
“ Coastal tidal ranges vary globally and can differ anywhere from near zero to over 11 m (36 ft).”
“ The highest tides in the world can be found in Canada at the Bay of Fundy, which separates New Brunswick from Nova Scotia. The highest tides in the United States can be found near Anchorage, Alaska, with tidal ranges that average around 30 feet ”

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by Whitley

I believe I disagree with you. The density is different but weight the same. Fill a cup 3/4 of the way, add enough ice to raise the level to the rim. When the ice melts the water level should be exactly the same (except for very little evaporation)

Correct.

A floating body displaces its weight. The ice cube floats because it is less dense than liquid water. Some of the ice cube is above the water because, being less dense, it takes up more space than it would if it was in the liquid state. It displaces a volume of water equal to its weight and the remainder of its volume is above the water line.

When it melts back into the liquid state it becomes just as dense as the water around it. Now it takes up exactly as much space as the part that was not above the water line before.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by kp11364

In regard to a recently closed thread about rising water levels, try this:

1. Fill a drinking glass half-full with water
2. Add 2-3 ice cubes. Look at the water level.
3. Put the glass aside; let all the ice melt. You will see that the water level remains the same. Why? Because the amount of water remains the same, regardless of the state of the water.

Actually, if you could measure accurately enough, you would find the water level actually went down just a bit.

Why???? Because as you cool water in it's liquid form, it contacts a bit and loses some volume all the way down to 32F, when it freezes and expands a bit due to crystallization. We see that everywhere where ice forms---cracking concrete, splitting rocks, etc. This is why ice floats---it is less dense than H2O in liquid form. When you melt it, the opposite occurs and you get a bit of volume contraction.

However, that is not the effect when glaciers and ice caps melt (Antarctic, not Arctic)-----that ice is over land and not part of the ocean---it adds to the ocean and causes the level to rise. And it WILL happen---it has happened over a dozen times in the last 4.5 million years of our current ICE AGE and will happen again. Coastal cities will be underwater, just as cities built on the coast 15,000-20,000 years ago are under water off the coasts of India, Japan and Mexico. And all that happened WITHOUT FOSSIL FUELS. It happened because forces much greater than your SUV are driving these cycles. What are these forces----No one knows for sure---the sun, variations in Earth's orbit, changes in the tilt of earth's axis, gravitational forces from undiscovered singularities, spacefaring aliens or God's plan----pick one or more, but your SUV is DEFINITELY NOT ON THAT LIST.

The debate now is whether human activity is changing those cycles, accelerating the global warming that has already been occurring for the last 20,000 years without any human contribution. There is data to show that warming is accelerating, but that data is 10,50, 150 years old at best and is totally inadequate to serve as a predictive model. Add to that there are those that would profit enormously by pushing this climate change agenda and the whole issue becomes less and less scientific.

The other question, even if the alarmists are right, is whether or not we can do anything about it. Frankly, we don't have the technology. The forces listed above are far more powerful than we are. Yes, we can buy EV's that only derive 80% of their energy from fossil fuels instead of 100% like an internal combustion engine, but is that going to change anything???? We might get some change if and when we develop fusion power and can have basically unlimited clean energy and can convert to hydrogen cells for vehicles, but that is at least 20+ years away, if ever. Then there are also wild cards, such as an asteroid/comet hit by one that is say 1/4 mile across--that will be the end of global warming for centuries, get your snowshoes out. Or a super volcano---just hope it isn't the one in Yellowstone.

[retiredguy123]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

I believe that the OP is correct with respect to the water level after the ice melts. Before it melts, part of the ice cubes are above the water level. But, when the ice melts, it become more dense and has less volume, but it is no longer floating and the total volume evens out. So, the water level stays the same. If that makes sense.

Correct, but the weight has nothing to do with it. It is about the volume. The volume of the ice is reduced when it melts, but, because the ice was floating, part of it was above the water level. After it melts, the part that was above the water line is now increasing the total volume of water, and the water level is the same.

[tuccillo]

There are three factors at work. Number 1: Ice on land melting because of rising temperatures increases the sea level by adding water to the oceans. Number 2: The warming of the oceans causes an increase in the volume and therefore an increase in the sea levels. Number 3: In many areas, the land is subsiding (sinking) and this makes it appear that the sea level is rising. This phenomenon varies greatly. For example, it is a big factor along the Gulf of Mexico.

Originally Posted by Whitley

Be patient with me, my masters is in corporate finance. The first law of thermodynamics, matter can neither be created nor destroyed. When I was much younger I would consider that all of the water that has been or will be is already here. Ocean has evaporation, clouds form, when a certain saturation is reached it rains (or snows) and the water falls to the earth. It may land on land as snow or ice or rain. Rain that falls anywhere, or frozen precipitation that falls in water will flow back to the seas. (Kind of makes me wonder about the water we drink, but that too makes its way back I guess). I would propose the sea level can increase based on melting of ice on land. Icebergs or glaciers floating in the sea should have no effect on the sea level when it melts. Only ice now on land, as it melts, would add to the sea level. Overly simplified but I need it to be. Sorry if I am boring or wrong. I understand the above. What I do not understand is how the sea level could increase over 100 years, 1.5 feet off Main, 1 foot in NYC, 1.5 feet in Chesapeake bay and the outer banks of NC, and only 1 foot in Miami. These are all part of the same continent on the Atlantic. Can someone explain it to me, simply? Maybe after that we can discuss how water we drink gets back to the ocean (I fear the answer)