[blueash]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

I think most people are far more complex in their beliefs than that.

Some of our prejudices are positive and somewhat accurate.

Some of our prejudices are mean spirited and narrow minded.

Sometimes we have to generalize in order to make some kinds of decisions.


We all have prejudices. But all people are worthy to be listened to and respected until they do something that hurts others on purpose or fail to take care of themselves and their family if they are able to.

Not all people are born with the same level of intelligence and you can call them stupid if you wish, but few people realize that most people are doing the best they can with the intelligence that they were born with and the experiences they have had. You can educate people and give the tools to help them, but you cannot make them innately smarter.

.

Gracie I don't think this has anything to do with smart and I called no one stupid. A couple things. Prejudice is different than discrimination although they are often intertwined. Prejudice means you judge a situation before having facts on which to base that decision. You pre judge. If it is the way you intend to treat a fellow human it denies that other person their ability to present themselves to you and be judged on their actual merits. To say that a black person should not be allowed to marry a white person is to deny them their humanity, their equality, their most basic right to be treated fairly and decently. It is not just a harmless world view rather it is the world view that led to slavery and the KKK and the Jim Crow laws. All views are not due equal hearing and equal respect. The public forum is not equally open to those that claim the earth is round vs the earth is flat. It is the duty of citizens to shout down those who continue to deny that the earth is round and tell them their "belief" is wrong and not worthy of equal time and in fact worthy of derision. If I were to state that all disabled children should be killed I would hope you wouldn't comment that all views need to be respected until they are acted upon. I would hope you would scream about what an inherently evil thought that is and that a person who holds that view ought to keep it silent or be severely criticized by everyone in the room if such an evil thought is even spoken.
On the other hand, your desire not to hire those who dress in a way to which you object may be based on some evidence or knowledge in which case you have discriminated, or made a choice based on knowledge. Or it may be prejudice depending on the thoughtfulness and completeness of your evidence gathering. We use the phrase "you have discriminating taste" as a compliment not an insult. So there is nothing wrong with discrimination, it only becomes wrong if you discriminate on the basis of ones prejudice.
So if a person says to me " I don't believe blacks should be allowed to marry real humans " which is the substance of the denial of interracial marriage, that is an opinion that needs to be vigorously opposed and openly derided if our culture is to continue to make progress against bigotry.

[Bucco]

Despite a number of posts yesterday that attempted to diss the posters on here, and the fact they have differing opinions, the last number of posts in this thread prove otherwise.

Where are those folks who judge others by their opinions.....

The last few posts on here were not just "nice", but real as I think it represents the norm. That is why if you take the politics out of race, the possibilities are amazing.

[Lark7]

Racists come in all colours.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by blueash

Gracie I don't think this has anything to do with smart and I called no one stupid. A couple things. Prejudice is different than discrimination although they are often intertwined. Prejudice means you judge a situation before having facts on which to base that decision. You pre judge. If it is the way you intend to treat a fellow human it denies that other person their ability to present themselves to you and be judged on their actual merits. To say that a black person should not be allowed to marry a white person is to deny them their humanity, their equality, their most basic right to be treated fairly and decently. It is not just a harmless world view rather it is the world view that led to slavery and the KKK and the Jim Crow laws. All views are not due equal hearing and equal respect. The public forum is not equally open to those that claim the earth is round vs the earth is flat. It is the duty of citizens to shout down those who continue to deny that the earth is round and tell them their "belief" is wrong and not worthy of equal time and in fact worthy of derision. If I were to state that all disabled children should be killed I would hope you wouldn't comment that all views need to be respected until they are acted upon. I would hope you would scream about what an inherently evil thought that is and that a person who holds that view ought to keep it silent or be severely criticized by everyone in the room if such an evil thought is even spoken.
On the other hand, your desire not to hire those who dress in a way to which you object may be based on some evidence or knowledge in which case you have discriminated, or made a choice based on knowledge. Or it may be prejudice depending on the thoughtfulness and completeness of your evidence gathering. We use the phrase "you have discriminating taste" as a compliment not an insult. So there is nothing wrong with discrimination, it only becomes wrong if you discriminate on the basis of ones prejudice.
So if a person says to me " I don't believe blacks should be allowed to marry real humans " which is the substance of the denial of interracial marriage, that is an opinion that needs to be vigorously opposed and openly derided if our culture is to continue to make progress against bigotry.

Very well said and very enlightening. Much food for thought and greater perception. Thank you Blueash.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by blueash

Gracie I don't think this has anything to do with smart and I called no one stupid. A couple things. Prejudice is different than discrimination although they are often intertwined. Prejudice means you judge a situation before having facts on which to base that decision. You pre judge. If it is the way you intend to treat a fellow human it denies that other person their ability to present themselves to you and be judged on their actual merits. To say that a black person should not be allowed to marry a white person is to deny them their humanity, their equality, their most basic right to be treated fairly and decently. It is not just a harmless world view rather it is the world view that led to slavery and the KKK and the Jim Crow laws. All views are not due equal hearing and equal respect. The public forum is not equally open to those that claim the earth is round vs the earth is flat. It is the duty of citizens to shout down those who continue to deny that the earth is round and tell them their "belief" is wrong and not worthy of equal time and in fact worthy of derision. If I were to state that all disabled children should be killed I would hope you wouldn't comment that all views need to be respected until they are acted upon. I would hope you would scream about what an inherently evil thought that is and that a person who holds that view ought to keep it silent or be severely criticized by everyone in the room if such an evil thought is even spoken.
On the other hand, your desire not to hire those who dress in a way to which you object may be based on some evidence or knowledge in which case you have discriminated, or made a choice based on knowledge. Or it may be prejudice depending on the thoughtfulness and completeness of your evidence gathering. We use the phrase "you have discriminating taste" as a compliment not an insult. So there is nothing wrong with discrimination, it only becomes wrong if you discriminate on the basis of ones prejudice.
So if a person says to me " I don't believe blacks should be allowed to marry real humans " which is the substance of the denial of interracial marriage, that is an opinion that needs to be vigorously opposed and openly derided if our culture is to continue to make progress against bigotry.

Your patience and understanding of my lack of knowledge in this area was respectful and helpful. You have helped me see things differently.

[njbchbum]

blueash -

you posted:

'All views are not due equal hearing and equal respect. The public forum is not equally open to those that claim the earth is round vs the earth is flat.'
- i ask you, who made those decisions?

'It is the duty of citizens to shout down those who continue to deny that the earth is round and tell them their "belief" is wrong and not worthy of equal time and in fact worthy of derision.'
- please clarify who it is that made shouting down anyone's opinion a duty of anyone else, telling anyone they are wrong and especially are not worthy of anything but derision?

'If I were to state that all disabled children should be killed I would hope you wouldn't comment that all views need to be respected until they are acted upon. I would hope you would scream about what an inherently evil thought that is and that a person who holds that view ought to keep it silent or be severely criticized by everyone in the room if such an evil thought is even spoken.'
- seems to me that is the verbal equivalent of biblical stoning!

[ilovetv]

Originally Posted by mgjim

So you believe that every point of view is equally valid?

Of course not!!! Everybody has an equally valid RIGHT to THINK what they think!! And everybody has an equal right according to the 1st Amendment to SPEAK their thoughts, too!

As I said before, it's nobody's business if somebody thinks something others consider "racist", as long as that person does not act on that thought to do harm to, for example, an inter-racial couple.

Go to this book linked, by Caroline Kennedy who's certainly no "racist", written in the early 1990's, on the Bill of Rights illustrated by actual Supreme Court cases and their rulings.

Read the first chapter shown, on a most instructive Supreme Court Case case: "Freedom of Speech: Missouri Knights of the Ku Klux Klan vs. Kansas City"

In Our Defense - C Kennedy - Google Books

[njbchbum]

mgjm -
you posted, 'So you believe that every point of view is equally valid?'

please define valid. if a point of view is valid to the person who holds it - does someone or many people saying that it is not valid make it invalid or any less real to its owner?

perhaps every point of view is not valid to everyone - but that would not make it invalid - would it?

[angiefox10]

Originally Posted by OldManTime

Simple definition of racist is;

S h a r p t o n

J a c k s o n

I know people don't know much about these two men. Here are a couple of things I DO know. Mr. Sharpton and Mr. Jackson don't do anything without being asked. If they are not asked to help a situation... they don't go in.

Another thing I know is that they both help ALL people. I have worked with them (co partnering) and have seen what they've done for all races first hand... it got up close and personal when I almost lost my job in 2008.

My very large corporation decided to hack the people who were close to retirement. I didn't ask Mr. Jackson to step in, but a friend of my husband's did. Thanks to him nine of us... All races kept our jobs until we were ready to retire! Trust me..... when he stepped in... it was a VERY big deal! He did it quietly and discreetly... but I was told he was involved and getting it done... by his group and my company!

No one knows about that... it wasn't news worthy to put in the paper.

A lot of what they do for us white people... isn't news worthy to put in the paper. It just doesn't make good news.

But... haters gonna hate....

[quirky3]

Originally Posted by angiefox10

I know people don't know much about these two men. Here are a couple of things I DO know. Mr. Sharpton and Mr. Jackson don't do anything without being asked. If they are not asked to help a situation... they don't go in.

Another thing I know is that they both help ALL people. I have worked with them (co partnering) and have seen what they've done for all races first hand... it got up close and personal when I almost lost my job in 2008.

My very large corporation decided to hack the people who were close to retirement. I didn't ask Mr. Jackson to step in, but a friend of my husband's did. Thanks to him nine of us... All races kept our jobs until we were ready to retire! Trust me..... when he stepped in... it was a VERY big deal! He did it quietly and discreetly... but I was told he was involved and getting it done... by his group and my company!

No one knows about that... it wasn't news worthy to put in the paper.

A lot of what they do for us white people... isn't news worthy to put in the paper. It just doesn't make good news.

But... haters gonna hate....

Wow! Thanks for sharing that first hand experience!

[ilovetv]

Originally Posted by angiefox10

I know people don't know much about these two men. Here are a couple of things I DO know. Mr. Sharpton and Mr. Jackson don't do anything without being asked. If they are not asked to help a situation... they don't go in.

Another thing I know is that they both help ALL people. I have worked with them (co partnering) and have seen what they've done for all races first hand... it got up close and personal when I almost lost my job in 2008.

My very large corporation decided to hack the people who were close to retirement. I didn't ask Mr. Jackson to step in, but a friend of my husband's did. Thanks to him nine of us... All races kept our jobs until we were ready to retire! Trust me..... when he stepped in... it was a VERY big deal! He did it quietly and discreetly... but I was told he was involved and getting it done... by his group and my company!

No one knows about that... it wasn't news worthy to put in the paper.

A lot of what they do for us white people... isn't news worthy to put in the paper. It just doesn't make good news.

But... haters gonna hate....

Stereotyping and labeling as "haters" everyone who doesn't have your same opinion negates your claims of being so loftily "open-minded, tolerant and liberal".

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by angiefox10

I know people don't know much about these two men. Here are a couple of things I DO know. Mr. Sharpton and Mr. Jackson don't do anything without being asked. If they are not asked to help a situation... they don't go in.

Another thing I know is that they both help ALL people. I have worked with them (co partnering) and have seen what they've done for all races first hand... it got up close and personal when I almost lost my job in 2008.

My very large corporation decided to hack the people who were close to retirement. I didn't ask Mr. Jackson to step in, but a friend of my husband's did. Thanks to him nine of us... All races kept our jobs until we were ready to retire! Trust me..... when he stepped in... it was a VERY big deal! He did it quietly and discreetly... but I was told he was involved and getting it done... by his group and my company!

No one knows about that... it wasn't news worthy to put in the paper.

A lot of what they do for us white people... isn't news worthy to put in the paper. It just doesn't make good news.

But... haters gonna hate....

There is much truth in what you say, I am glad he was able to help you (Jackson) in your company.

First 1/2 correct thing you say is they are invited. Yes, I believe that to be true TODAY. My problem is that was not always the case for either of them. They both made their career INTERFERING.....you can check facts on Jackson and his disputed and proven lies about his early years with MLK..you can check lots of stuff on Sharpton and his escapades. THIS does not make them bad in itself......to support injustice is a good thing, but to USE injustice for personal gains with no regard to truth or ironically justice to accomplish your goals is not admirable.

Since you know "first hand" what Sharpton, for example has down for white people I will have to accept your word, but there has been zero evidence shown publicly and in fact his comments on Jews, Mormons and whites are legion and disgusting.

Where I think you are absolutely correct is that they are USED as tools at this stage of their lives, which does not make it right. If we are to judge people by their actions and WORDS (which you cannot erase) then I will still say they both fit the true definition of racist.

[Golfingnut]

Both Al and Jesse want equality for black Americans so if leaning in the direction of giving them the longer straw is in my opinion, a day late, and a dollar short. For that reason, I feel they deserve a lot of leeway when referring to being racist against whites. We have been evil to them for hundreds of years, so again, they should have a free pass on rasisum.

[graciegirl]

What Indy dealmaker said in another thread, or was it this one?

We aren't going to change anyone's mind.

I am pretty content with my philosophy of life.

I think most of us are doing the right thing by trying to be respectful of others.

[njbchbum]

Originally Posted by angiefox10

I know people don't know much about these two men. Here are a couple of things I DO know. Mr. Sharpton and Mr. Jackson don't do anything without being asked. If they are not asked to help a situation... they don't go in.

Another thing I know is that they both help ALL people. I have worked with them (co partnering) and have seen what they've done for all races first hand... it got up close and personal when I almost lost my job in 2008.

My very large corporation decided to hack the people who were close to retirement. I didn't ask Mr. Jackson to step in, but a friend of my husband's did. Thanks to him nine of us... All races kept our jobs until we were ready to retire! Trust me..... when he stepped in... it was a VERY big deal! He did it quietly and discreetly... but I was told he was involved and getting it done... by his group and my company!

No one knows about that... it wasn't news worthy to put in the paper.

A lot of what they do for us white people... isn't news worthy to put in the paper. It just doesn't make good news.

But... haters gonna hate....

that's a wonderful thing, angiefox10! perhaps it should have made it to the papers - i believe they could use some good press when it is deserved. wish i could think of something either has done for me and mine.

maybe the city of chicago should ask one or both of them to go in and help their city if they have not already. but i would think that if the rainbow coalition or any other group had a plan in that city - we would know about it.