[dsned]

I have a 19 yr old daughter and you bet I want her to be judgmental!!! If she sees a guy binge drinking I want her to judge him as NOT someone to get to know. If she sees a group of "youths" who have their pants down and listening to rap, do I want her to "judge" them and stay away??? YOU BET!!! Judging situations and people are part of what keeps us alive and well. Have you ever heard of using "good judgement??"

[buggyone]

"This is actually the most difficult. If a person is judgmental do they deserve to be judged? If I encounter a bigot do I have an obligation to point out their bigotry?"

Yes, it is your duty to point out bigotry. For example, in my weekly poker group, one older player from Tidewater Virginia played a game (dealer's choice) that he called "N--- in the Woodpile." You better bet that I corrected that right away and told him that was definitely not a term to be ever used again. He apologized and has not done so again.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by dsned

I have a 19 yr old daughter and you bet I want her to be judgmental!!! If she sees a guy binge drinking I want her to judge him as NOT someone to get to know. If she sees a group of "youths" who have their pants down and listening to rap, do I want her to "judge" them and stay away??? YOU BET!!! Judging situations and people are part of what keeps us alive and well. Have you ever heard of using "good judgement??"

IMHO, you are not so much asking (or expecting) your daughter to be "judgmental" but rather to evaluate the BEHAVIOR of the individuals with whom she comes in contact and hopefully to avoid individuals who manifest the behaviors you mention. This, again IMHO, is not the same as sitting in judgment of others.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by blueash

Does the speaker even know that his words are offensive? The seller "gypped" me. The buyer jewed me down. He was an Indian giver. All words that are fortunately becoming less commonly heard as all are highly offensive if you know the history of the words. But if a speaker is unaware of the derivation... Do I correct her, do I judge her, do I walk away? See it is never easy.

A very thoughtful post, blueash (the entire post, that is); thank you very much. I am focusing here on the incredible number of people who use words and expressions like these without having a clue that they are being offensive, because "they have always heard them used like this." How many people know, as another example, that the phrase "rule of thumb," so commonly used in many different ways, pertains to wife beating?... Whether to correct that person or to walk away would, for me, depend on my relationship with that person. If it were a stranger, I probably would not get into it, whereas if it were someone I knew and cared about, I would discuss it. In all likelihood I would not judge that person, even though I wouldn't appreciate the phraseology being used.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725

Some of these questions are a bit simplistic.

That was on purpose to see how people would respond. As you can see, a lot of people answered "yes" to all questions.

There are many extremely successful people who received bad grades at some point in their lives and went on to great achievements. Einstein. Many celebrities in music, acting, etc. have such backgrounds.

Yes, and I include myself in that group.

Suicides can be done for any variety of reasons. It depends a lot on the circumstances/culture/time period, etc. Think Masada. Marilyn Monroe.

I agree. It could be because of drugs, alcoholism, gambling debts etc.. Do they bear any responsibility for starting down those roads in the first place?

There are various speed traps in Florida where you might be going two miles over the limit and get a ticket because that is the way that community's funds are boosted.

I always watch my speed very carefully.

It is hard to know the whole story about many people so I find it had to be judgmental especially considering how fallible our knowledge of the facts can be. All those defendants cleared by DNA testing often because of the game like nature of our legal system and the egos involved.

I guess that's a "no" to all 6 questions? That's fine, I'm not going to be judgemental.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by Russ_Boston

I think deserve is wrong verb for many of these questions. Like it or not we don't live in a true 'wrong or right' society. And I'm thankful for that. If you don't think there are gray areas on any of these questions then maybe there is such a thing as being TOO judgmental. Judges themselves, whose job it is to be judgmental, have guidelines to go by when sentencing or determining guilt. Even to a judge there is no easy answer sometimes and they have to weigh all the factors.

I think I meant "with all things being equal" and no obvious excuses. In other words, the speeder knew he was speeding and didn't need to be speeding. The bank robber knew it was wrong and didn't need to rob a bank. The student was slacking off and knew it could mean failure. The suicide person was tired of living. The overweight person living an unhealthy lifestyle knew the risk and decided to take it.

When an overweight person comes into the ER with a heart attack, don't the people on staff ever wonder, "boy, what was he/she thinking?" Many think the word "deserve" is not the right verb. Give me a verb that you think works better. How about the verb "working"? He/she was working on clogging up their arteries and, sure enough, it worked.
There's always the word "qualified". He/she was knowingly living an unhealthy lifestyle and became qualiied for a heart attack. We can use different words to make it nicer, but the actions and results are the same.

[rubicon]

Originally Posted by blueash

The danger occurs when you slip without even noticing from judging to pre-judging a situation or an individual. Being judicial is a positive, being prejudicial is a negative. The former requires information which hopefully is in itself accurate and free from bias. The latter requires satisfaction with one's own unchallenged world view, or ignorance.

Language is important. How is a sex worker different from a call girl from a slut? The job is the same but the word you choose calls up differing mental pictures. Is a person who speeds an illegal driver? I think the word deserves is a loaded word. It suggests to me that punishment is merited after having considered all the mitigating circumstances. Too many of your examples have intentionally been left vague thus I don't have enough information to decide whether the person "deserves" the consequence.

So in the spirit of the challenge I will answer NO most and give an example of how it could be that the punishment isn't merited by the offense

1. Speeding ticket.. as above, friend is having a heart attack and you are getting him to the hospital. Mitigating circumstance, driver needs help not a ticket
2. Failing student... Student has a treatable learning disability which school is not addressing. He seems to be daydreaming and never gets his work done, slacking. Repeating the grade will not help, diagnosis and therapy are what is needed and this student may shine. Or to make it even simpler, the kid needs glasses.
3. I can even stretch this one. Episode of Bones. Bank robber was forced to do it because he had been kidnapped and had remote control explosive devise strapped to his body. So he robbed the bank but did not deserve to go to jail.
4. Unhealthy lifestyle.. Who is defining unhealthy and how certain is your data? If a person fails to exercise due to arthritis do they deserve more trouble? Do smokers deserve lung cancer and COPD? If a person gets high from running they are considered to have a good addiction. If a person gets high from eating, a bad one.
5. Suicidal moment. If you jump you should expect to die which is very different from deserve to die.

6. This is actually the most difficult. If a person is judgmental do they deserve to be judged? If I encounter a bigot do I have an obligation to point out their bigotry? Does my sense of just walk away and avoid confrontation constitute me being judgmental but civil or judgmental and cowardly? Is the offense I experience at hearing the expression of prejudice my problem or should I be judging the speaker harshly? Does the speaker even know that his words are offensive? The seller "gypped" me. The buyer jewed me down. He was an Indian giver. All words that are fortunately becoming less commonly heard as all are highly offensive if you know the history of the words. But if a speaker is unaware of the derivation... Do I correct her, do I judge her, do I walk away? See it is never easy.

Your post progresses very logically and I agree with what you have said. However, the pivotal point is in the interpretations of the original post.

Some readers addressed each as it was written while others used extrapolations to arrive at their point.

The fact remains that it depends on who you are vis a vis and who they are.

the poster that hoped his child would insantly judge a binge drinker is indeed wise and is illustrative of what normally happens on a daily basis.

I see a driver criss crossing on a highay I don't care if he is drunk or sick........

Essentially people have two choices judge or blink and deflate and face the consequences.

Finally based on the simple wording of the original post I beleive those people derserved what they asked for. Now I am going to be real judgmental. Our society has become adept at denial and hence unaccountable for their actions. The old saw is accurate "if you play with fire you can expect to get burned".

[KeepingItReal]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

I think I meant "with all things being equal" and no obvious excuses. In other words, the speeder knew he was speeding and didn't need to be speeding. The bank robber knew it was wrong and didn't need to rob a bank. The student was slacking off and knew it could mean failure. The suicide person was tired of living. The overweight person living an unhealthy lifestyle knew the risk and decided to take it.

When an overweight person comes into the ER with a heart attack, don't the people on staff ever wonder, "boy, what was he/she thinking?" Many think the word "deserve" is not the right verb. Give me a verb that you think works better. How about the verb "working"? He/she was working on clogging up their arteries and, sure enough, it worked.
There's always the word "qualified". He/she was knowingly living an unhealthy lifestyle and became qualiied for a heart attack. We can use different words to make it nicer, but the actions and results are the same.

1.How about a guy who just keeps poking and poking a bear until the bear has finally had enough and turns on him and does to him what bears are very well known to do?

2.Was the guy poking the bear responsible for his actions and did he get what he deserved, qualified for, and/or was working for?

3.Did it work for him? He/she knowingly irritated the bear with his poking so did he become qualified for the bear attack?

4.Was the bear justified in doing what he did to the one poking him?

5.Do you think the guy will go poking any more bears or did he not learn anything from what the bear did to him?

6.What about those attacked by irritated bears that were irritated by others but never did anything themselves to irritate the bears?

7.Did those innocent attacked by the bear anyway deserve, qualify, or work for what happened to them?

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by KeepingItReal

1.How about a guy who just keeps poking and poking a bear until the bear has finally had enough and turns on him and does to him what bears are very well known to do?

2.Was the guy poking the bear responsible for his actions and did he get what he deserved, qualified for, and/or was working for?

3.Did it work for him? He/she knowingly irritated the bear with his poking so did he become qualified for the bear attack?

4.Was the bear justified in doing what he did to the one poking him?

5.Do you think the guy will go poking any more bears or did he not learn anything from what the bear did to him?

6.What about those attacked by irritated bears that were irritated by others but never did anything themselves to irritate the bears?

7.Did those innocent attacked by the bear anyway deserve, qualify, or work for what happened to them?

Note: The above analogy is fiction.

[KeepingItReal]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

Note: The above analogy is fiction.

Really, think about it some more....outside the box....


(Put another way, an analogy is a comparison between two different things in order to highlight some point of similarity. As Freud suggested, an analogy won't settle an argument, but a good one may help to clarify the issues.)

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by AutoBike

Responses in Bold How does one know?

I can give you a few examples if you don't mind a long story:

My neighbor, a smoker, got a heart attack and was taken to the hospital. He was in intensive care for a long time, I think about 10 days. During that time he was unable to smoke but he said he didn't mind. He said he didn't crave it. When he came home from the hospital I had a chance to talk to him out in the yard. And guess what, he was smoking a cigarette! I asked, "if you didn't crave it while you were in the hospital, why are you smoking again?" He said, "oh, I just enjoy smoking."

I didn't say a word about it....just moved on to another subject. But I was thinking to myself it wouldn't be long before he would have a second heart attack. And, sure enough, within about 2 months he had a second heart attack and no one was around to help him. His wife found him dead on the floor when she came home.

Another neighbor, an obese man, had a stroke at age 50. His wife told me that he wanted the same food everyday for dinner. He wanted fried hamburgers, peppers, onions, and potatoes. All fried. This was every day. So he had his stroke and went to the hospital. From there he went to a nursing home to recover. He was in the nursing home for several months. Finally, he was well enough to come home and I had a chance to talk to him out in his yard. Being interested in health, I asked if his doctor advised him to be on a special diet. He said, "yes, but there's no way I'm going to eat that diet, I have to have my hamburgers". Actually, his exact words were, "heck no", he wouldn't eat a special diet.

Again, I thought it wouldn't be long before he would have another stroke. And within a few months he had another stroke. This one was worse and his wife told me she doubted that he would ever come home again.

Need more? I have lots of these stories. These people who don't care are so predictable!

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by KeepingItReal

Really, think about it some more....outside the box....


(Put another way, an analogy is a comparison between two different things in order to highlight some point of similarity. As Freud suggested, an analogy won't settle an argument, but a good one may help to clarify the issues.)

I'm way ahead of you. That's why I said, "it's a fiction."

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by AutoBike

We can all come up with anecdotal stories like yours above, but they don't PROVE causality. Here's a case study from the New England Journal of Medicine about an 88 year old man that ate between 20-30 eggs/day and had normal cholesterol levels.

Your original question was: "How does one know, I've seen people smoking in their 90s, for example. I wasn't sure what you were looking for, so I gave anecdotes. What a waste of time that turned out to be! I agree that anecdotal stories don't prove causality.

Of course, when it comes to health, almost anything is possible. The science of health is not like math-science where 2 + 2 always equals 4.

Your case study from the New England Journal of Medicine, about an 88 year old man, was interesting. But this is no surprise to me that he could have normal cholesterol levels. Yes, individual responses can vary widely. Most people have a number of cholesterol receptors, the purpose of which is to remove excess cholesterol. Some people have more receptors than others so they can consume more cholesterol and maintain normal levels.

Then you had a quote about the 100 year old woman who smokes and drinks. Well, that's an anecdote too. Tell me what that proves.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by SemiMike

Here's a perspective on these issues from an Eastern viewpoint, as the so-called Fifth Remembrance of the Buddha: "My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand."

A question to those who said they like the above quote: Do you think it also applies to diet and exercise? Or will you choose to apply it selectively?

I cannot escape the consequences of my actions: I believe this absolutely applies to diet and exercise. And lifestyle in general.

[KeepingItReal]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

I'm way ahead of you. That's why I said, "it's a fiction."

I would have to disagree, but I'm done, Gerbil on a wheel, NOT.