[2BNTV]

Originally Posted by Waynecarla

Very well put,I agree !!!!!!

Thanks. I had to look up dsytopia.

dystopia - definition of dystopia by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

[rubicon]

Originally Posted by eweissenbach

Some might say this is not, or perhaps more correctly, should not be a political discussion. Some might say that discussing solutions to deeply troubling problems is a way to heal wounds, and begin a dialogue that may ultimately be solved politically. Some might say that if discussions of this type can be kept civil, they provide an excellent way for people to think through how they might ultimately make a difference, and many of those solutions may well come outside of legislative action. Some might say that if one in not interested in such discussion, one might choose not to click on the thread. And some may not agree with any of these things.

eweissenbach: spot on.

My concern hearing of the news was that the media would milk the tragedy for all it was worth in order to fill the 24/7 need news media , talk shows etc need. By doing so they actually marginalize an otherwise serious issue. My second concern is that opportunitist would jump in loaded with an emotional narrative when instead reasoned and honest discussion needed to take place.

The obvious finger pointing would be to gun control or a lack thereof, mental health system and lack thereof, violence on TV, movies, in video games....and should

However the underlying issue is being ignored and that is the lack of restraint and self control that has deteriorated over the last 40 years or so. A lack of self restrain that has been sanctioned by the news media, intellectuals in universities, judges. Civil disobedience has been sanctioned since the days of the war protest. People like Jane Fonda and other hollywood types made it a kool thing. I believe you know where I am going here.

Look at what's kool for young people today. The more misbehaved the better. A clean cut kid can't make it in Hollywood or Nashville. No drugs, tearing up hotels ,risky behaviors make headlines and stars. How else do you explain a Charlie Sheen or Lindsay Lohan.

If there is going to be a dialogue in this country about violence it might be well to begin with a look back at what we have become to accept as normal behavior. In my day a recalcitrant student was one who got caught chewing gum in class.

[buggyone]

Originally Posted by rubicon

eweissenbach: spot on.

My concern hearing of the news was that the media would milk the tragedy for all it was worth in order to fill the 24/7 need news media , talk shows etc need. By doing so they actually marginalize an otherwise serious issue. My second concern is that opportunitist would jump in loaded with an emotional narrative when instead reasoned and honest discussion needed to take place.

The obvious finger pointing would be to gun control or a lack thereof, mental health system and lack thereof, violence on TV, movies, in video games....and should

However the underlying issue is being ignored and that is the lack of restraint and self control that has deteriorated over the last 40 years or so. A lack of self restrain that has been sanctioned by the news media, intellectuals in universities, judges. Civil disobedience has been sanctioned since the days of the war protest. People like Jane Fonda and other hollywood types made it a kool thing. I believe you know where I am going here.

Look at what's kool for young people today. The more misbehaved the better. A clean cut kid can't make it in Hollywood or Nashville. No drugs, tearing up hotels ,risky behaviors make headlines and stars. How else do you explain a Charlie Sheen or Lindsay Lohan.

If there is going to be a dialogue in this country about violence it might be well to begin with a look back at what we have become to accept as normal behavior. In my day a recalcitrant student was one who got caught chewing gum in class.

Well, I believe civil disobedience has been around in the US for a long time. Look at the writings of John Stuart Mill or Ralph Waldo Emerson.

As for clean cut kids not making it in Nashville - I think Carrie Underwood and Taylor Swift are pretty clean cut. Yes, there are plenty of others who are not good role models but still some mighty good one.

[Cedwards38]

The rebellious are not limited to the Charlie Sheen and Lindsay Lohan generation. There was James Dean, Marlon Brando, W. C. Fields, Jack Kerouac, Abbie Hoffman, and the list goes on and on. People are people. Always have been, always will be. We have to have rules to govern the welfare of us all.

[kittygilchrist]

gentle reminder: people who cannot discern reality from games are not made that way by the games. Being insane comes from wooky brain chemistry, not electronic images.

[eweissenbach]

Originally Posted by kittygilchrist

gentle reminder: people who cannot discern reality from games are not made that way by the games. Being insane comes from wooky brain chemistry, not electronic images.

I tend to agree to an extent. However people with "wooky brain chemistry" (is that a new clinical diagnosis?) may be influenced by the graphic and violent images and believe that is normal, logical, and acceptable behavior. They may also become desensitized to the violence. There is much about the human brain we simply don't understand.

[Roaddog53]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

What I hear when I hear all of you saying how you feel this might be fixed, what I hear is your suffering and anger that this unspeakable tragedy has occurred and like the grown ups we all are we want to prevent it from happening again.

We are united in that. There is no use arguing right now. Wait and vote what your concience tells you is right. This is a democracy.

That is all we can do. And we can pray.

Making each other angry accomplishes absolutely nothing. And voicing your opinion does not change others opinions about guns, mental health, ways to raise children, video games etc. All of these things are contributing factors but us arguing about solutions will not bring solutions.

once again Gracie..very well put. When something unspeakable happens everyone has answers and knee jerk reactions. Those reactions sometimes cause more reactions. Some will say doing nothing is wrong. what is needed is sensible, thought out, democratic solutions that are not caused by emotional individual events.

[Challenger]

Originally Posted by Roaddog53

once again Gracie..very well put. When something unspeakable happens everyone has answers and knee jerk reactions. Those reactions sometimes cause more reactions. Some will say doing nothing is wrong. what is needed is sensible, thought out, democratic solutions that are not caused by emotional individual events.

Wish I had said that

[senior citizen]

Originally Posted by buggyone

This is all good stuff and makes sense. However, most here are talking of a family unit where there is a mother and father. Father works and mother stays home preparing meals and cleaning house.

Would you want your daughter to be one of those housewifes who stay home or be a vibrant part of the workforce equal to that of any man? Choices are made according to each person.

How many of us in the Boomer generation (born around 1945-1955) had a mother who worked as an attorney, CEO, or a profession that required her to be equal to any man? If mothers worked, it was a store clerk, secretary, nurse, or teacher.

It is complicated nowadays. We have educated our daughters and our sons to the max.

However, even the highly educated women who had careers before "baby" arrived on scene..........often choose to be stay at home moms and raise the children to school age, at least. Raising a family is a JOB.

I was a "latch key kid" of the 1950's and always envied my friends who had stay at home moms. Luckily, our circumstances after marriage permitted me to be that stay at home mom........forever. I later ran an at home business, plus helped hubby with any secretarial duties in his business.........all from home.

Our home was always open to all of our childrens' friends from the early years and right through college.......

Our daughter taught in Boston after her marriage and then taught at a community college in Vermont prior to having her first child......but then, until most recently, she chose to be a "stay at home mom" for at least a decade.........now has returned to the workforce, teaching.

Our daughter in law ran a successful business, but also has chosen to be a "stay at home mom".....and her babies are amazing.

All of these are super bright kids , having parental love and guidance from BOTH parents.

Sometimes the women just put their "careers" on hold, all the time knowing that nurturing children is the highest calling.

My mom, especially after she retired, and would travel up to be with us (before moving up here in their retirement) would say how happy she was that I didn't have to "go out to work"..........I felt the same way.

A household can become chaotic with both parents out working and the kids left unsupervised...........however, I realize that many do have to work nowadays and it's a fact of life and the "new normal".

Our kids both wrote us letters when they were in college "thanking us for the way we raised them" after they saw all the broken homes of other friends..........and even at his wedding, our son wrote us yet another thank you note, echoing the same thing.......that everything he had achieved in life (which is a lot) was due to us in his formative years.

Anyway, now that my daughter has returned to "work" it is difficult as the kids have so many many activities...........it's hard to be a Mom and juggle everything.

I know a lot of young parents who are "juggling" and yet I know others who chose to manage with less money and be there 24/7 for the little ones. Either way is just a "choice" nowadays.

When we were "latch key kids" in the 1950's we had to "stay indoors" until our parents came home from work........there was no DAY CARE.
Grandma couldn't always walk over to watch us. Not everyone had cars.

It was NOT FUN to be home alone when everyone else was out playing during days off from school.........so we'd sneak out. Luckily, we did not get into trouble...........but I can see both sides of the issue ...............as always. Can't help it. Life isn't just one way or the other. There are various nuances.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by senior citizen

It is complicated nowadays. We have educated our daughters and our sons to the max.

However, even the highly educated women who had careers before "baby" arrived on scene..........often choose to be stay at home moms and raise the children to school age, at least. Raising a family is a JOB.

I was a "latch key kid" of the 1950's and always envied my friends who had stay at home moms. Luckily, our circumstances after marriage permitted me to be that stay at home mom........forever. I later ran an at home business, plus helped hubby with any secretarial duties in his business.........all from home.

Our home was always open to all of our childrens' friends from the early years and right through college.......

Our daughter taught in Boston after her marriage and then taught at a community college in Vermont prior to having her first child......but then, until most recently, she chose to be a "stay at home mom" for at least a decade.........now has returned to the workforce, teaching.

Our daughter in law ran a successful business, but also has chosen to be a "stay at home mom".....and her babies are amazing.

All of these are super bright kids , having parental love and guidance from BOTH parents.

Sometimes the women just put their "careers" on hold, all the time knowing that nurturing children is the highest calling.

My mom, especially after she retired, and would travel up to be with us (before moving up here in their retirement) would say how happy she was that I didn't have to "go out to work"..........I felt the same way.

A household can become chaotic with both parents out working and the kids left unsupervised...........however, I realize that many do have to work nowadays and it's a fact of life and the "new normal".

Our kids both wrote us letters when they were in college "thanking us for the way we raised them" after they saw all the broken homes of other friends..........and even at his wedding, our son wrote us yet another thank you note, echoing the same thing.......that everything he had achieved in life (which is a lot) was due to us in his formative years.

Anyway, now that my daughter has returned to "work" it is difficult as the kids have so many many activities...........it's hard to be a Mom and juggle everything.

I know a lot of young parents who are "juggling" and yet I know others who chose to manage with less money and be there 24/7 for the little ones. Either way is just a "choice" nowadays.

When we were "latch key kids" in the 1950's we had to "stay indoors" until our parents came home from work........there was no DAY CARE.
Grandma couldn't always walk over to watch us. Not everyone had cars.

It was NOT FUN to be home alone when everyone else was out playing during days off from school.........so we'd sneak out. Luckily, we did not get into trouble...........but I can see both sides of the issue ...............as always. Can't help it. Life isn't just one way or the other. There are various nuances.

I relate to every single word of your post.

[senior citizen]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

I relate to every single word of your post.

Thank you Gracie. I forgot to add that a lot of Dads are "Mr. Mom's" today.

We have a dear friend, young mom, younger than our kids, whose own mother was a working teacher, her dad a lawyer........after graduating college and medical school (via the U.S. Navy) she began having her babies, one each year for three years......then went back to med school for her "specialty" which involved a lot of study and surgery, etc......all the time her husband gladly took on the roll of full time MOM. She always tells me that she couldn't have done it without him. Someone has to supervise the children. She hardly had any time at all to be with her family, as she always states.

They are now out in the South Pacific but we still keep in touch....held her in my arms when she was a newborn baby. Had deep conversations with her while she was still at Brown University , saying that she had that dilemma of knowing she was going on to medical school, yet knowing her biological clock would be ticking if she waited too long to begin her family...........then wondering how she would BALANCE everything.

It's not easy for the working mom or those who go back to college for advanced degrees. I was fortunate to be able to stay at home and the kids always bragged that not only did they have their mom at home but Dad as well, as he had a studio at home and worked from home the entire time they were in school, from K through college.......then he opened a retail establishment..........they were long gone by then. So, it worked for us.

p.s. Vermont allows cottage industry or "at home businesses" ; we lived in a totally residential neighborhood the entire time.
Other artists and craftsmen also worked at home. I'd say we had the best of both worlds..............

p.s. My parents were both factory workers......my mom had to work a lot of "overtime" so dad would do the cooking. They were ahead of their time.

[Russ_Boston]

Originally Posted by DaleMN

And then the NRA weighed in on the topic.

As I said it will devolve into political talk sooner or later. You might not (obviously not) agree with the NRA position but why not give us your thoughts on gun control instead of just the frowny face? I'd be interested in your opinon on how to handle guns in our society.

This tragedy has many talking points: gun control; violence in our society from video games, movies etc.; mental health issues; police in schools...

[ugotme]

Originally Posted by Russ_Boston

This tragedy has many talking points: gun control; violence in our society from video games, movies etc.; mental health issues; police in schools...

Isn't that what it really boils down to?

There is really no one single answer - period !

[eweissenbach]

Originally Posted by Russ_Boston

This tragedy has many talking points: gun control; violence in our society from video games, movies etc.; mental health issues; police in schools...

Bingo Russ.

[Russ_Boston]

As far as police in each school I'd say that if it ever comes to that then maybe we need to look at the other issues first.

I'm not even sure that one armed guard in each school would really do the trick. I'm pretty sure that a 'smart' gunman intent on inflicting damage would know how to take out the 'guard' first. To me that is no answer. And what kind of message is that anyway.

Personally I feel that there is no, zero, natta, need for any sort of attack, military style rifle in the hands of any civilian. Rifles? yes, there are many legitimate reasons for hunters, ranchers, sport target etc. But military style semi automatic attack guns? With 20 or more bullet cartridges? IMHO - no! Doesn't solve the whole issue but let's try starting there.