Originally Posted by The Villager II

Thank you and I stand corrected. They did see the stupidity in their action.

No they didn't. Their Gov wants to be VP nominee and knew if they passed this bill he could kiss that goodbye. Repubs never do anything in the peoples interests...just their own.

I am glad to see that one of the uber-conservative Tea Partiers sees the light when she said about women who decide on an abortion: "it is still their choice".

Obviously an enlightened conservative does exist.

buggyone, i DID NOT say that i want it to be their choice, only that this requirement does not interfere with their choice....so i am not really as "enlightened" as you give me credit for...djplong, two things. first, the contraceptives in question in the virginia law are the morning after pill and other abortion-causing pills, not regular hormonal contraceptives which prevent pregnancy... i don't know about the IUD, but that also prevents a fertilized egg from implanting, thus killing it....secondly, i know of all these women from working at a mental health center for four years and one from personal friendship....of course that does not happen to every woman, but it does happen a lot.

"buggyone, i DID NOT say that i want it to be their choice, only that this requirement does not interfere with their choice....so i am not really as "enlightened" as you give me credit for..."

So, Tea Party ChaCha wants women's own bodies to be controlled by mainly male politicians in Washington DC? Wow, that is archaic for a modern woman, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by buggyone

"buggyone, i DID NOT say that i want it to be their choice, only that this requirement does not interfere with their choice....so i am not really as "enlightened" as you give me credit for..."

So, Tea Party ChaCha wants women's own bodies to be controlled by mainly male politicians in Washington DC? Wow, that is archaic for a modern woman, in my opinion.

You, and all pro-abortionists, always forget the innocent life in your equation. Some people find that callous and slightly monstrous. I am one. I'm sorry.

Richie: I'm going to go out on a limb and be quite honest in a way that will probably get me attacked. But I'm also going to admit to something in the hopes that, although you'll disagree with me, you'll understand me better.

Remember, before I say this, that I have two daughters so don't jump to conclusions.

At conception, it's "life". Human life? Well, it has the *potential*, if everything goes right, to grow up like any other human. But, no, I do not equate a fertilized egg the same as a fully-born person.

That's not to say I don't give a damn - remember, I have two daughters.

But I've cleaned up a miscarriage - and that was the most graphic demonstration to me.

Do I know where that line is? No - and I'll be the first to admit it.

Does it mean that I think someone should be able to walk into a clinic at 8 1/2 months and get an abortion? Hell no. IMO, you had plenty of time to think about it before then.

But when I see a fertilized egg or blastocyte or anything that early on in development, it looks more like hope, potential, blueprints - that sort of thing. What I do NOT see is a thinking, *sentient* human being. Make no mistake - I see the *potential*, but in the same way that an acorn is not a tree, a seed isn't a flower, a piece of sheet metal isn't a car or an undeveloped negative isn't a photograph. I mean, we can freeze fertilized eggs and thaw them out years later. You can't do that with a person (at least not yet).

Go ahead and take your shots.

You can call me "pro-abortion" but that won't make it true. As I said to my wife when she wondered my my ex's rantings didn't get to me as much as she thought they might, I said "She can call me a rhododendron - doesn't mean I'm going to pollenate".

Originally Posted by djplong

Richie: I'm going to go out on a limb and be quite honest in a way that will probably get me attacked. But I'm also going to admit to something in the hopes that, although you'll disagree with me, you'll understand me better.

Remember, before I say this, that I have two daughters so don't jump to conclusions.

At conception, it's "life". Human life? Well, it has the *potential*, if everything goes right, to grow up like any other human. But, no, I do not equate a fertilized egg the same as a fully-born person.

That's not to say I don't give a damn - remember, I have two daughters.

But I've cleaned up a miscarriage - and that was the most graphic demonstration to me.

Do I know where that line is? No - and I'll be the first to admit it.

Does it mean that I think someone should be able to walk into a clinic at 8 1/2 months and get an abortion? Hell no. IMO, you had plenty of time to think about it before then.

But when I see a fertilized egg or blastocyte or anything that early on in development, it looks more like hope, potential, blueprints - that sort of thing. What I do NOT see is a thinking, *sentient* human being. Make no mistake - I see the *potential*, but in the same way that an acorn is not a tree, a seed isn't a flower, a piece of sheet metal isn't a car or an undeveloped negative isn't a photograph. I mean, we can freeze fertilized eggs and thaw them out years later. You can't do that with a person (at least not yet).

Go ahead and take your shots.

You can call me "pro-abortion" but that won't make it true. As I said to my wife when she wondered my my ex's rantings didn't get to me as much as she thought they might, I said "She can call me a rhododendron - doesn't mean I'm going to pollenate".

You should have your own TV talk show. No one on this site talks truth like you do. I think, but don't want to commit that the lack of the ability to use a complex thought process, is the reason for so many to stand on being PERFECTLY 100% RIGHT when in so many cases they are either following superstitious beliefs or guessing. Thanks for this article as I am Pro-Life in my heart and mind, but I support the right to choose for anyone so inclined to do so. Even though God's word says to leave the business of GOD to GOD, the so called Christians on this site become judge/jury/condemner for anyone not following their interpretation of the beginning of life. As a Christian, I find it shameful to have such arrogance.

TVII - to be honest some of the "God" arguments fall a little flat on me. Specifically saying how birth control that prevents implantation of a fertilized egg is in some way similar to abortion or should be banned.

1/3 of all pregnancies, from what I read, never implant. This means that, using that logic, "God" kills 1/3 of all 'babies' created - a far worse tally than anything people come up with.

That being said, I *personally* don't think "God" works that way.

I *do* know that, "back in the day", abortion was considered a private matter until the time of 'the quickening' - which was believed to be when the soul entered the fetus - and that tended to 'coincide' with being able to feel movement, kicking, etc.

Originally Posted by RichieLion

You, and all pro-abortionists, always forget the innocent life in your equation. Some people find that callous and slightly monstrous. I am one. I'm sorry.

I do not want to get into this again. I know your viewpoints and I know you will never change them - as you know mine on the subject.

Pro-Choice people (like me) feel it is a personal choice a woman makes without having politicians make the decision for her.

Buggy - this'll be a shocker for you.. I used to be *ardently* pro-life.

Originally Posted by buggyone

I do not want to get into this again. I know your viewpoints and I know you will never change them - as you know mine on the subject.

Pro-Choice people (like me) feel it is a personal choice a woman makes without having politicians make the decision for her.

The women, the womens family, the womens doctor, but never the voting public. This is not a situation where we all get together to determine what hour the bars will close. It is a private matter.

i am a woman, i know very well that the choices i make about when to be sexual have consequences...no woman nor man has the right to deny the unborn the right to life....too many women are using abortion as if it were simple birth control, and that is a disgusting mark on our national character. of course some men think this is great because it takes the onus off them to support or care for an unwanted child, so is that REALLY choice for a woman?
the answer to these questions is personal responsibility and education about the facts of life, preferably from well-informed parents, and supported by a moral society.

Originally Posted by buggyone

I do not want to get into this again. I know your viewpoints and I know you will never change them - as you know mine on the subject.

Pro-Choice people (like me) feel it is a personal choice a woman makes without having politicians make the decision for her.

I know what you're saying. I know what DJ is saying. I even know what V is saying.

But to me, you left the baby out of the equation again in your sentence above. There's no excuse for it. I'm not going to say "IMHO"; there's just no excuse for it.

Now, the growing human life is classified as "a potential for life"??

I will pray for you all.

1-My belief that life begins at conception comes from the scientific evidence-not religious belief.
Scientifically speaking, life begins at conception.
"c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction" (Life - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Biological characteristics of living things:
Complex organization
Metabolism
Responsiveness
Growth
potential for reproduction
Biology: Characteristics of Living Things

I can supply hundreds of links to support the exact same truth. Science has been my life for as long as I can remember. Plants are living things, animals are living things, unborn children are living things.

2-I have never JUDGED anyone for having an abortion. As a Christian, especially as a Christian, I have learned that we all make mistakes, but there is always forgiveness. We ALL have sinned and I for one, continue to sin on a daily basis. Being a Christian doesn't make me perfect! It just makes me a person whose sins (past, present and future) have been washed away FOREVER! It is not a license to sin or act better than others. How could I possibly think that I am better than anyone else? Forgiveness is available to however asks for it. We all sin, and not always intentionally. Jesus said from the cross-"Father forgive them, FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO".
I am very sad to think that others on this forum would consider me arrogant regarding the issue of when life begins. My passion is for the life of the unborn who cannot speak for themselves. Someone needs to do it. Others speak out against using animals in research, because the animals cannot speak for themselves. I don't know what goes on in the minds of these animals, but I don't think that their defenders are arrogant.

Originally Posted by KatzPajamas

1-My belief that life begins at conception comes from the scientific evidence-not religious belief.
Scientifically speaking, life begins at conception.
"c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction" (Life - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Biological characteristics of living things:
Complex organization
Metabolism
Responsiveness
Growth
potential for reproduction
Biology: Characteristics of Living Things

I can supply hundreds of links to support the exact same truth. Science has been my life for as long as I can remember. Plants are living things, animals are living things, unborn children are living things.

2-I have never JUDGED anyone for having an abortion. As a Christian, especially as a Christian, I have learned that we all make mistakes, but there is always forgiveness. We ALL have sinned and I for one, continue to sin on a daily basis. Being a Christian doesn't make me perfect! It just makes me a person whose sins (past, present and future) have been washed away FOREVER! It is not a license to sin or act better than others. How could I possibly think that I am better than anyone else? Forgiveness is available to however asks for it. We all sin, and not always intentionally. Jesus said from the cross-"Father forgive them, FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO".
I am very sad to think that others on this forum would consider me arrogant regarding the issue of when life begins. My passion is for the life of the unborn who cannot speak for themselves. Someone needs to do it. Others speak out against using animals in research, because the animals cannot speak for themselves. I don't know what goes on in the minds of these animals, but I don't think that their defenders are arrogant.

I still think you are the catsmeow. You have probably seen this, but just in case:

What the Bible says about Abortion!