Oh, Wait. Maybe It Was Collusion. - The New York Times

Originally Posted by Guest

Oh, Wait. Maybe It Was Collusion. - The New York Times

OK. Here is the link to a listing of all federal crimes under Title 18 of the United States Code.

Help me out by pointing out the law that makes "colluding with a foreign government to affect the outcome of an election" a crime.

18 U.S. Code Part I - CRIMES | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

I didn't think so.

Carl in Tampa

Originally Posted by Guest

OK. Here is the link to a listing of all federal crimes under Title 18 of the United States Code.

Help me out by pointing out the law that makes "colluding with a foreign government to affect the outcome of an election" a crime.

18 U.S. Code Part I - CRIMES | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

I didn't think so.

Carl in Tampa

Well, the Grand Jury that has been empowered will decide what crimes have been committed.....not us

Originally Posted by Guest

OK. Here is the link to a listing of all federal crimes under Title 18 of the United States Code.

Help me out by pointing out the law that makes "colluding with a foreign government to affect the outcome of an election" a crime.

18 U.S. Code Part I - CRIMES | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

I didn't think so.

Carl in Tampa

I doubt what you say, but more than that find it appalling to have such a discussion.

You "suggest" by trying to "clean" this up as legal, that you are fine with a US politician...use any word..colluding, conspiring, whatever...WITH A FOREIGN GOVT is just peachy keen and fine. We should accept that as normal.

To me, that is crap...perhaps I am old fashioned but my experience with many politicians is that if any of them ever did anything with a foreign government to attempt to sway our elections makes them treasonous and despicable. Certainly it qualifies as beyond un patriotic.

I really am tired of you folks making it just fine to demean and mock such an investigation. It actually makes me ill

Originally Posted by Guest

I doubt what you say, but more than that find it appalling to have such a discussion.

You "suggest" by trying to "clean" this up as legal, that you are fine with a US politician...use any word..colluding, conspiring, whatever...WITH A FOREIGN GOVT is just peachy keen and fine. We should accept that as normal.

To me, that is crap...perhaps I am old fashioned but my experience with many politicians is that if any of them ever did anything with a foreign government to attempt to sway our elections makes them treasonous and despicable. Certainly it qualifies as beyond un patriotic.

I really am tired of you folks making it just fine to demean and mock such an investigation. It actually makes me ill

Actually, other than Trump and his supporters, I have yet to hear any honorable people, including our new FBI director say that if they were given the opportunity to even discuss "collusion" or any word you use,......they would run to report it to the FBI.

I suppose the definition of patriotism has been altered and by quite a bit.

Originally Posted by Guest

I doubt what you say, but more than that find it appalling to have such a discussion.

You "suggest" by trying to "clean" this up as legal, that you are fine with a US politician...use any word..colluding, conspiring, whatever...WITH A FOREIGN GOVT is just peachy keen and fine. We should accept that as normal.

To me, that is crap...perhaps I am old fashioned but my experience with many politicians is that if any of them ever did anything with a foreign government to attempt to sway our elections makes them treasonous and despicable. Certainly it qualifies as beyond un patriotic.

I really am tired of you folks making it just fine to demean and mock such an investigation. It actually makes me ill

You doubt what I say? I spent twenty years locking people up for violation of federal laws under Title 18.

Now pay attention. All I did was refute the New York Times article that implied that "collusion" was a criminal act.

That's all I did.

I absolutely did not give any indication that I was "fine with a US politician...use any word..colluding, conspiring, whatever...WITH A FOREIGN GOVT is just peachy keen and fine." (Your words.)

You are still free to peruse Title 18 to look for the crime of "colluding."

Just, please, don't attribute positions to me that I have not taken.

Now, one last thing. Since you condemn any action by a foreign government attempting to affect our elections, how do you feel about Obama funneling American tax dollars to an attempt to oust Israel's Prime Minister Netanyahu in their elections? Outrage would be a good response.

NGO connected to Obama’s 2008 campaign used U.S. tax dollars trying to oust Netanyahu - The Washington Post

Carl in Tampa

Originally Posted by Guest

You doubt what I say? I spent twenty years locking people up for violation of federal laws under Title 18.

Now pay attention. All I did was refute the New York Times article that implied that "collusion" was a criminal act.

That's all I did.

I absolutely did not give any indication that I was "fine with a US politician...use any word..colluding, conspiring, whatever...WITH A FOREIGN GOVT is just peachy keen and fine." (Your words.)

You are still free to peruse Title 18 to look for the crime of "colluding."

Just, please, don't attribute positions to me that I have not taken.

Now, one last thing. Since you condemn any action by a foreign government attempting to affect our elections, how do you feel about Obama funneling American tax dollars to an attempt to oust Israel's Prime Minister Netanyahu in their elections? Outrage would be a good response.

NGO connected to Obama’s 2008 campaign used U.S. tax dollars trying to oust Netanyahu - The Washington Post

Carl in Tampa

We've "interfered" with a LOT of foreign "elections" we're the pot calling the kettle black.

Originally Posted by Guest

You doubt what I say? I spent twenty years locking people up for violation of federal laws under Title 18.

Now pay attention. All I did was refute the New York Times article that implied that "collusion" was a criminal act.

That's all I did.

I absolutely did not give any indication that I was "fine with a US politician...use any word..colluding, conspiring, whatever...WITH A FOREIGN GOVT is just peachy keen and fine." (Your words.)

You are still free to peruse Title 18 to look for the crime of "colluding."

Just, please, don't attribute positions to me that I have not taken.

Now, one last thing. Since you condemn any action by a foreign government attempting to affect our elections, how do you feel about Obama funneling American tax dollars to an attempt to oust Israel's Prime Minister Netanyahu in their elections? Outrage would be a good response.

NGO connected to Obama’s 2008 campaign used U.S. tax dollars trying to oust Netanyahu - The Washington Post

Carl in Tampa

Have you actually read your own link ?

You do know the election is over and the person you.....well, hesitate or won't criticize...is now the President. He is to govern, the election is past. This is election campaign fodder, and not connected personally to Obama and his family.

Listen, I have been a conservative for many years. I probably support most of what Trump says he supports, and that is another subject. What does he really support ?

Anyway, I also never ever said Trump or his campaign ever colluded or any such thing. I just do not have the power to see that. However, I do know the person involved, and I am sure you and your ilk who loathe anyone not Trump or anyone that is not involved in various conspiracy theories, do not mind having a President who is a compulsive, chronic liar.

Knowing you don't mind, there is no reason to believe you would ever frown on this disputable man's behavior. Response is always, uniformly, and without exception, to speak of Obama or Clinton as if simply mentioning those names absolve Trump of all lies and deception.

We have a President that we cannot ever believe...we have a President who finds an American investigation into DIRECT involvement an intrusion by a foreign country (something you would think a President would welcome); his daily basis for speaking ; and a hoax. We have a President who finds the freedom of the press to be a real problem, and who speaks of leaks as if they were not coming from his staff and his WH.

We will just agree to disagree...most Trump supporters as you, find his actions to be fine; find lies from our Oval Office; accusations of a personal nature; and done on a worldwide basis to be just fine.

I suppose I have that syndrome that all those who depend on truth from the WH have..and my feelings because I absolutely find no reason to trust our President are just passé.

As Trump reminded everyone last night......Clinton did this..Clinton did that..someday he will catch up to the present.

PS...you mention your background and I respect that, but since you never inquire about anyone else's background, just allow...I do not pretend to have your law enforcement background, BUT I have spent my entire adult life involved with Republican politics, statewide (PA), nationally, and in fact a couple years working on the streets of Tampa (living at 345 Bayshore and Skypoint)..addresses only to validate what I say....I do not lack experience. I suppose my criteria for President is different than yours, and save me the lecture on Clinton please. I have stated many times on here that our nomination system left us down, and if you read the ridiculing posts from the trolls on here, you would know i voted, but not for either of the two main candidates.

Originally Posted by Guest

Have you actually read your own link ?

You do know the election is over and the person you.....well, hesitate or won't criticize...is now the President. He is to govern, the election is past. This is election campaign fodder, and not connected personally to Obama and his family.

Listen, I have been a conservative for many years. I probably support most of what Trump says he supports, and that is another subject. What does he really support ?

Anyway, I also never ever said Trump or his campaign ever colluded or any such thing. I just do not have the power to see that. However, I do know the person involved, and I am sure you and your ilk who loathe anyone not Trump or anyone that is not involved in various conspiracy theories, do not mind having a President who is a compulsive, chronic liar.

Knowing you don't mind, there is no reason to believe you would ever frown on this disputable man's behavior. Response is always, uniformly, and without exception, to speak of Obama or Clinton as if simply mentioning those names absolve Trump of all lies and deception.

We have a President that we cannot ever believe...we have a President who finds an American investigation into DIRECT involvement an intrusion by a foreign country (something you would think a President would welcome); his daily basis for speaking ; and a hoax. We have a President who finds the freedom of the press to be a real problem, and who speaks of leaks as if they were not coming from his staff and his WH.

We will just agree to disagree...most Trump supporters as you, find his actions to be fine; find lies from our Oval Office; accusations of a personal nature; and done on a worldwide basis to be just fine.

I suppose I have that syndrome that all those who depend on truth from the WH have..and my feelings because I absolutely find no reason to trust our President are just passé.

As Trump reminded everyone last night......Clinton did this..Clinton did that..someday he will catch up to the present.

PS...you mention your background and I respect that, but since you never inquire about anyone else's background, just allow...I do not pretend to have your law enforcement background, BUT I have spent my entire adult life involved with Republican politics, statewide (PA), nationally, and in fact a couple years working on the streets of Tampa (living at 345 Bayshore and Skypoint)..addresses only to validate what I say....I do not lack experience. I suppose my criteria for President is different than yours, and save me the lecture on Clinton please. I have stated many times on here that our nomination system left us down, and if you read the ridiculing posts from the trolls on here, you would know i voted, but not for either of the two main candidates.

And there you are...................continuing to attribute positions to me that I have not taken and have never defended.

You list too many for me to waste my time debunking. I've probably said it before and will say it again. If you cannot find a statement of mine about a position that you can quote, don't attribute the position or attitude to me. To do so is dishonest and reprehensible.

Originally Posted by Guest

And there you are...................continuing to attribute positions to me that I have not taken and have never defended.

You list too many for me to waste my time debunking. I've probably said it before and will say it again. If you cannot find a statement of mine about a position that you can quote, don't attribute the position or attitude to me. To do so is dishonest and reprehensible.

Not going to play word games.

You either are ok with our President lying, accusing, firing maligning a serious congressional investigation...those as a start and you are a smart guy. You don't need links.

Or you are not.

You also, being a smart guy know how to not say things and to divert the conversation just enough to make you look like the good guy.

I was a "backroom" guy in politics. Back there you need to be straight up, and I straight up detest the political game playing with words. Always have, and had to learn when I was being word manipulated, and know it is not a contest I will win.

I am not attributing anything to you, and I think you know that.

I simply value the Oval Office as a place, when speaking to the citizens of the country, the occupant has a motivation of what is best for the country. I am not naive to the facts of politics, and understand "bending" truth, but IN MY OPINION, our presidency is under attack.

Finally, I find all Trump supporters speak only of others, not so much Trump.

I could ask you specifically how you feel about specific lies or specific accusations he makes, but then the word game begins. We hear OBama or Clinton or progressives, never a straight out defense of Trump.

On the positive side, posting to someone who does not find it necessary to call me a nasty name or tell me about Hillary Clinton, etc as first resort or accuse me of a syndrome is refreshing.

I have no syndrome at all, and my thinking is relatively clear. I also know how well he plays the "game"... hell, he used to make up pretend names to try and manipulate the media (who does that). He is just doing it in our house.

My usual motivation for posting is that I see a post that contains incorrect or misleading information, and I am moved to respond.

That was the case here where the OP posted a link to the New York Times containing the sentence, "It is our view not only that the Russian government was running some sort of intelligence operation involving the Trump campaign, but also that it is impossible to rule out the possibility of collusion between the two."

Now that is really (not) profound, since everyone knows that it is impossible to prove a negative.

Just to clarify my position a bit. From the beginning I was a supporter of Ted Cruz. A detailed search of various social media would find my statement that if I could have waved a magic wand and made him President, I would have done so. I voted for him in our primary.

But, incredibly, Trump became the Republican candidate and, faced with the alternative of Hillary Clinton, I voted for Trump.

Beyond that action I have taken no action to endorse or affirm his actions other than to do so for specific policy positions that he has taken, such as:

1. Enforce the Immigration Laws, particularly those that Obama would not enforce.

2. Target illegal immigrants involved in criminal acts for immediate deportation, especially members of the gang MS-13.

3. Demonstrate affirmative support for our Police Agencies, by word and deed.

4. Affirm a new and unshakable relationship with Israel, including providing missile defense facilities.

5. Negate several of Obama's Executive Orders which were hamstringing our move towards energy independence.

You get the idea.

Incidentally, it is not "word games" when I speak or write with precision. I strive to say what I mean and mean what I say. I have little patience with people who express themselves incorrectly and then say, "Oh, you know what I meant."

I also strive to never demean or insult others, and I avoid calling anyone by denigrating names. If I wouldn't say something to your face, I won't say it in writing.

Originally Posted by Guest

My usual motivation for posting is that I see a post that contains incorrect or misleading information, and I am moved to respond.

That was the case here where the OP posted a link to the New York Times containing the sentence, "It is our view not only that the Russian government was running some sort of intelligence operation involving the Trump campaign, but also that it is impossible to rule out the possibility of collusion between the two."

Now that is really (not) profound, since everyone knows that it is impossible to prove a negative.

Just to clarify my position a bit. From the beginning I was a supporter of Ted Cruz. A detailed search of various social media would find my statement that if I could have waved a magic wand and made him President, I would have done so. I voted for him in our primary.

But, incredibly, Trump became the Republican candidate and, faced with the alternative of Hillary Clinton, I voted for Trump.

Beyond that action I have taken no action to endorse or affirm his actions other than to do so for specific policy positions that he has taken, such as:

1. Enforce the Immigration Laws, particularly those that Obama would not enforce.

2. Target illegal immigrants involved in criminal acts for immediate deportation, especially members of the gang MS-13.

3. Demonstrate affirmative support for our Police Agencies, by word and deed.

4. Affirm a new and unshakable relationship with Israel, including providing missile defense facilities.

5. Negate several of Obama's Executive Orders which were hamstringing our move towards energy independence.

You get the idea.

Incidentally, it is not "word games" when I speak or write with precision. I strive to say what I mean and mean what I say. I have little patience with people who express themselves incorrectly and then say, "Oh, you know what I meant."

I also strive to never demean or insult others, and I avoid calling anyone by denigrating names. If I wouldn't say something to your face, I won't say it in writing.

Good post and I can handle that.

On what you like, here is my problem thus far. He has not nor will he have any legislative success that I can see.......he actually refers to his own party as THEY, and as you know EO's can simply be reversed by a new set of EO's by the next guy so that is not impressing me.

I also think you are being extremely positive in your judgement on Israel. The settlement issue, etc are going to haunt him, and quite frankly and this goes as another general critique.

What he says, whether on twitter or in West Virginia is broadcast word wide...not just a local tv station. He is the President and what he says and what he does is news, and frankly his continuing bashing the media and using the RUSSIAN coined phrase FAKE NEWS is tiresome. You and I both know, they are reporting NEWS with extreme accuracy; his problem is with commentary. He is doing this along with his various condemnations of our countries institutions (justice, DNI, FBI) to the world. This will haunt him AND our country, I believe that sincerely.

I do not disagree with everything he says, but his constant maligning of our country has just flat worn me out. My hope, for the country, is that Kelly may keep him under wraps.

Heck, we differed even on the primary. I was a Bush or Rubio supporter but you will be happy to know why. They were both working on comprehensive, across the aisle immigration policy which of course is now a dead issue. I am not so hard right...used to be but the conspiracy theories just wear me out...so boring and nothing but garbage...never any facts, just accusations.

I yearn for the day when we have statesman....folks who care about the country much more than their party or their re election.

With the advent of 24 hour news and the internet, the sheer cost of running for office has skyrocketed and money now literally rules. That and the constant stream of REAL FAKE NEWS, if you understand...I mean people on here have actually linked Russian supported web sites to support Trump.

I hope for the investigation to be over and whatever will be will be. As someone steeped in law enforcement, I am sure you agree that "let the chips fall where they may"....I just wish the President of the United States was not so violently and loudly maligning an investigation into a foreign power interefering or trying to with our elections. It is something he should be applauding.

You called me a liberal which I am not......fact is I started out as a Democrat and while working with that party in PA, discovered that there were things I did not like so changed parties in the early 70's and have been a loyal Republican up until this primary.

I know about Trump....lots...from reading and friends.....I know what he is and thus when my party gave him the nod, I left and am now an independent. Again, my opinion, if he survives the investigation and stays in place for 4 years, not only do I fear for the country but the Republican party will never ever come back. I still believe in character and morals in our WH.

My ex party can never, as they used to, stand on morals or making your own choices as they used to, or any kind of character issue at all.

By the way, I admire precision. It is actually quite funny to read posts condemning millions and millions of americans with absolutely no back up. I am not into labeling anyone and then attacking them. As a Democrat or as a Republican, I know there are great patriots on both sides of the aisle.

As a supporter of Trump...an assumption perhaps, but Trump people have been taught by him to distrust and hate CNN ( I am sure it has nothing to do with his ongoing feud with Zucker from before any election) so you may dismiss this, but as our President calls looking into Russian attempts to sway the election a waste, a diversion, etc.

By the way, nobody has shown CNN or anyone much other than Fox commentators..not news...fabricating fake news AND AS A POLITICAL NERD I DO CHECK...

"Washington (CNN)The FBI monitored social media on Election Day last year in an effort to track a suspected Russian disinformation campaign utilizing "fake news," CNN has learned.

In the months leading up to Election Day, Twitter and Facebook were the feeding grounds for viral "news" stories floating conspiracies and hoaxes, many aimed at spreading negative false claims about Hillary Clinton.

On Election Day, dozens of agents and analysts huddled at a command center arrayed with large monitoring screens at the FBI headquarters in Washington watching for security threats, according to multiple sources.

That included analysts monitoring cyber threats, after months of mounting Russian intrusions targeting every part of the US political system, from political parties to policy think-tanks to state election systems."

FBI tracked 'fake news' believed to be from Russia on Election Day - CNNPolitics

Originally Posted by Guest

You called me a liberal which I am not......fact is I started out as a Democrat and while working with that party in PA, discovered that there were things I did not like so changed parties in the early 70's and have been a loyal Republican up until this primary.

If I called you a Liberal, it was quite inadvertent.

Please indicate the forum, thread and post number of the posting so I can look it up.

Thanks

Carl in Tampa

Originally Posted by Guest

If I called you a Liberal, it was quite inadvertent.

Please indicate the forum, thread and post number of the posting so I can look it up.

Thanks

Carl in Tampa

Can't find where you did...I apologize.

I get so used to that because in this forum, if you don't love Trump, that is one of the names hurled 😊

My apologies