Originally Posted by djplong

Let me be more specific then - prayer without action will do nothing. You can sit there and be as pious as you want - but without DOING something, nothing will happen.

And "the recent years" of our moral decay??? While I agree that you can point to several things that aren't as they should be - would you rather go back to those more 'godly' times of slavery, treating women like chattel, tribal warfare, etc? And I grant you that this is my personal hot button, but to claim that the moral decay of the country is due to having 'God' expelled from public schools while the Catholic Church was out raping children shows a certain blindness.

Read what I wrote - God belongs in the home and the Church. I recall a certain passage regarding the opinion Jesus had of people who had to shout their faith from everywhere and make it known to everyone.

Majority rules? If that were true, blacks would still be in the back of the bus and drinking from "colored" fountains and being arrested at "whites only" places!

Even the founding fathers spoke of the "tyranny of the majority".

That being said, we DO seem to be going a little overboard in what the word "accomodate" means when it comes to the government.

Man, your so all over the place I wouldn't know where to start addressing your inaccuracies. What has taken God from the schools have to do with a few wayward priests?
And that crap about blacks is an insult to all my ancestors who died fighting the civil war.

And if you do not see the moral decay out there then you are blind, sir.

Oh, by the way, you think woman are treated better now? wow.

bk: That is exactly my point. If we treated the Catholic Church the same way many want to treat Islam, we would have had the National Guard closing all Catholic schools because the country would have been outraged that the Church that protected the hundreds of priests who *raped* thousands upon thousands of children were operating SCHOOLS and CHILDREN'S CAMPS (I went to CYO when I was young).

Prosecute the criminals, not the entire 'label'.

Pats2010: My point was directed at the "majority rules" comment. The "majority" thought segregation was just ducky - in the same way that it was ok to own blacks a century before. It was a big rallying cry that Washington should stay out of local affairs.

And as far as the Civil War is concerned, there's been a big push to try and paint it as more a "states rights" issue instead of a slavery issue. That's true to an extent - but just look at the Confederate Constitution and you'll see that slavery was enshrined into law *and* state's rights were ignored. You HAD to be a slave state to join and you COULD NOT vote to outlaw slavery as a member of the CSA.

And, yes, I know that a lot of people fought and died for the Confederacy on the principal of fighting for their State. But would that be the first time that good men died fighting for a self-contradicting government? Would it be the last?

Now, to try and calm the rising temperature here (and I'm as guilty as any), can you tell me where you're coming from when you ask about how women are treated now? What are you comparing? I'm not baiting you, I'm genuinely interested in what you were thinking.

I so wish you watched the Founder's Friday djplong. I know you have been extremely busy. I'm not being critical. The previous Black Founders' episodes were so educational and gave so many references to read and learn more about Black history in America and the Civil War.

[QUOTE=djplong;280925]Let me be more specific then - prayer without action will do nothing. You can sit there and be as pious as you want - but without DOING something, nothing will happen.

My guess is that you don't have much experience with prayer.

Praying, is doing something.

Yoda

[QUOTE=djplong;280976]bk: That is exactly my point. If we treated the Catholic Church the same way many want to treat Islam, we would have had the National Guard closing all Catholic schools because the country would have been outraged that the Church that protected the hundreds of priests who *raped* thousands upon thousands of children were operating SCHOOLS and CHILDREN'S CAMPS (I went to CYO when I was young).



Can I just say that I went to 12 years of Catholic education and Mass every Sunday and knew and interacted with and sought and received counseling from more than a few Priests in those years and never once was I made to feel uncomfortable in their presence.

Also, I've never heard a priest or Catholic say that people who won't convert to our religion should be forced to or killed and that the women of those who won't convert are free to be taken.

Also I've never had a Catholic priest attempt to get me to put on a bomb laden vest and kill myself and anyone who is attempting to live a non-Catholic life and that by doing so I would be rewarded in Heaven.

Also I've never had a Catholic priest tell me if my sister or daughter did not want to remain a Catholic or refused to marry a Catholic of my choosing that I should kill my sister or daughter to protect her honor and the honor of Catholicism.

I could say more, but you get what I'm saying. (I know, I know; you knew Muslims in Boston)
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bk: Yeah, I should be catching mroe of those. "Founding Fridays" was a pleasant surprise when I was deliberately trying to watch Glenn Beck.

Yoda: I think we're coming at this from two different ends. Someone else posted the story of the man who drowned at his house thinking God would save him with the 'punch line' of God saying "I sent you a truck a boat and a helicopter, why didn't you take any of them?".

Richie: To address your points in order.

I went to Catholic School (St. Williams in Boston, St. Theresa in Staten Island) as well. I was an altar boy at St. Theresa's. Not once did I encounter any priest who did any of the horrors that have been reported. In addition, the priest who officiated my first wedding was once of the nicest guys I ever knew. This is what I mean about not painting with a broad brush.

The Catholics have given up "conversion by the sword". For the most part, so have Muslims - the Wahabbists and their ilk being the noisy exceptions. But, then, Catholics have had a several hundred year head start on 'being civilized'. Let's not forget that the Salem Witch Trials were only a few hundred years ago and the "troubles" in Northern Ireland have only just now calmed down.

Today's bomb-laden vest is yesterday's Crusader. Today's massacre at a marketplace is yesterday's "Burning Times". Today's Madras is yesterday's inquisition chamber. And honor killings still go on in that VERY Christian country of Brazil.

Yes, I get what you're saying. But if we forget our past, we're condemned to repeat it. Christianity has a LOT of blood on it's hands. It is to their credit that it's such a minority now (but there are the "Christian Soldier" types out there - just not doing much damage as far as I can see).

Religion is a deeply personal and PRIVATE matter and has no place in government (specific religions, that is).

Originally Posted by djplong

bk: Yeah, I should be catching mroe of those. "Founding Fridays" was a pleasant surprise when I was deliberately trying to watch Glenn Beck.

Yoda: I think we're coming at this from two different ends. Someone else posted the story of the man who drowned at his house thinking God would save him with the 'punch line' of God saying "I sent you a truck a boat and a helicopter, why didn't you take any of them?".

Richie: To address your points in order.

I went to Catholic School (St. Williams in Boston, St. Theresa in Staten Island) as well. I was an altar boy at St. Theresa's. Not once did I encounter any priest who did any of the horrors that have been reported. In addition, the priest who officiated my first wedding was once of the nicest guys I ever knew. This is what I mean about not painting with a broad brush.

The Catholics have given up "conversion by the sword". For the most part, so have Muslims - the Wahabbists and their ilk being the noisy exceptions. But, then, Catholics have had a several hundred year head start on 'being civilized'. Let's not forget that the Salem Witch Trials were only a few hundred years ago and the "troubles" in Northern Ireland have only just now calmed down.

Today's bomb-laden vest is yesterday's Crusader. Today's massacre at a marketplace is yesterday's "Burning Times". Today's Madras is yesterday's inquisition chamber. And honor killings still go on in that VERY Christian country of Brazil.

Yes, I get what you're saying. But if we forget our past, we're condemned to repeat it. Christianity has a LOT of blood on it's hands. It is to their credit that it's such a minority now (but there are the "Christian Soldier" types out there - just not doing much damage as far as I can see).

Religion is a deeply personal and PRIVATE matter and has no place in government (specific religions, that is).

Gee, I wonder if Christianity has ever done any good anywhere? After reading your posts I will have to do some research to see if they are as bad as you say.

Well, obviously you did NOT read my post. I'll quote:

I went to Catholic School (St. Williams in Boston, St. Theresa in Staten Island) as well. I was an altar boy at St. Theresa's. Not once did I encounter any priest who did any of the horrors that have been reported. In addition, the priest who officiated my first wedding was once of the nicest guys I ever knew. This is what I mean about not painting with a broad brush.

Once again, and I'll keep repeating it as long as I have to, my issue is the double standard and painting with a broad brush.

"GODly" times and then qualify the time by referencing the negatives like slavery, etc....aren't you tainting the time in question to suit your purpose.

Yes I would as the majority my age would love to see a return to the good old days when there was a much higher code of ethics and our core values as Americans were stronger and not diluted by special interests.

And I totally disagree with your notion that religion only belongs in the home or in church. It has never been that way and as long as we the people still count, it will not be cloistered that way now or in the future.

I do respect that may be your opinion and for now am happy it is a minority (not race) report.

btk

Bill: Maybe we can narrow things down a bit.

I'm NOT being sarcastic here.. Can you tell me, at least generally, what kinds of ethics you're talking about?

I mean, politicians have ALWAYS been crooked - we just hear more about it now.

Religion has ALWAYS had it's dark side - but we didn't used to have a series of 24/7 news outlets to tell us.

Today's "unwed mother" was yesterday's "daughter gone off to visit her aunt for a few months".

And as far as religion being outside the home goes - do you think that EVERYTHING should be closed on Sundays? Or if the tables were reversed, do you think it would be ok for the government to tell you that you couldn't drive a car after sundown on Friday (if Orthodox Judaism were the law of the land and you were a Christian)?

So when you talk about "the good old days", can you be a bit more specific?

Originally Posted by djplong

Bill: Maybe we can narrow things down a bit.

I'm NOT being sarcastic here.. Can you tell me, at least generally, what kinds of ethics you're talking about?

I mean, politicians have ALWAYS been crooked - we just hear more about it now.

Religion has ALWAYS had it's dark side - but we didn't used to have a series of 24/7 news outlets to tell us.

Today's "unwed mother" was yesterday's "daughter gone off to visit her aunt for a few months".

And as far as religion being outside the home goes - do you think that EVERYTHING should be closed on Sundays? Or if the tables were reversed, do you think it would be ok for the government to tell you that you couldn't drive a car after sundown on Friday (if Orthodox Judaism were the law of the land and you were a Christian)?

So when you talk about "the good old days", can you be a bit more specific?

Time restraints permit to only address one of your comparisons. Years ago a female may have been sent away to have a baby. One reason would be to save embarrassment ( such old fashioned values) and another would be to give the baby up for adoption since a single woman in those days could not support herself never mind a baby, too.

Now a days the stigma of unwed mothers has basically gone by the wayside. Women today feel no shame and are actually encouraged to have a baby without visible means of support. Why? They know that the taxpayers will pick up the tab.
Isn't progress great?

Ok, given what you said - tell me.. Who is encouraging women to have a baby without visible means of support?

Who's out there saying "do this!"?

I would counter that it is actually MEN who are abdicating THEIR responsibilities and there's a vaccuum in the place of whomever or whatever should be encoraging or forcing men to live up to their responsibilities.

Now, what's caused that? I don't know if there's any SINGLE cause. Who knows? Maybe men got caught up in the "women's lib" movement and figured they could be 'more' independant too. But we all know that minorities are disproportionately represented when it comes to single parenthood.

At least welfare reform helped curb some of the generational abuses (like the Ventura case in Boston with over 100 family members in 4 generations all on the dole).