Well, George W. Bush had the hat and the cattle. This country has been left knee deep in manure to prove it.

I'm pretty sure that lightning bolt that burned down the house the other day was George Bush's fault. Benj

If you took a poll, I think the American public would agree!

[I can't agree more with Kahuna. Nicely said. :bigthumbsup:

Originally Posted by Villages Kahuna

...simply opt out of the voting process. In a democracy, that seldom works.

Am I happy with the lack of progress in Congress since the Democrats took over in the mid-term elections? No.

Is there an explanation for the lack of progress of any kind since the Democrats took over the majority? I suppose the answer could be maybe--threat of filibuster by the opponents, presidential veto, etc. But if there actually were any statesmen or stateswomen in leadership positions in the Congress, the answer to that question would also be NO.

On a question of whether things might get better with the Democrats gaining a greater majority--particularly a veto-proof majority in the Senate--maybe there's hope. We'll find out soon enough. It might be the first time in decades that the President and both houses of Congress were all controlled by the same party. If nothing gets done then, I don't know what the answer might be...a coups?...a benevolent dictatorship?

As far as the presidential candidates are concerned, we should all listen and understand what their plans are, what their campaign platforms are. Then all we can hope for is that they are truthful. That would be unlike our current President who campaigned on one platform and then reversed direction and narrowed his focus to only a few of his personal ideologies, totally ignoring and failing to provide leadership to resolve any of the other glaring problems facing our country. If that happens again with either of the current presidential candidates, I will be deeply saddened and frustrated beyond any ability to express by feelings.

The ship of state changes direction very, very slowly...almost imperceptably. I hope and pray that a change of direction in the governance of our country is actually underway and I just haven't been able to see it.

quote author=Villages Kahuna link=topic=8685.msg76389#msg76389 date=1217396745]
...simply opt out of the voting process. In a democracy, that seldom works.

Am I happy with the lack of progress in Congress since the Democrats took over in the mid-term elections? No.

Is there an explanation for the lack of progress of any kind since the Democrats took over the majority? I suppose the answer could be maybe--threat of filibuster by the opponents, presidential veto, etc. But if there actually were any statesmen or stateswomen in leadership positions in the Congress, the answer to that question would also be NO.

On a question of whether things might get better with the Democrats gaining a greater majority--particularly a veto-proof majority in the Senate--maybe there's hope. We'll find out soon enough. It might be the first time in decades that the President and both houses of Congress were all controlled by the same party. If nothing gets done then, I don't know what the answer might be...a coups?...a benevolent dictatorship?

As far as the presidential candidates are concerned, we should all listen and understand what their plans are, what their campaign platforms are. Then all we can hope for is that they are truthful. That would be unlike our current President who campaigned on one platform and then reversed direction and narrowed his focus to only a few of his personal ideologies, totally ignoring and failing to provide leadership to resolve any of the other glaring problems facing our country. If that happens again with either of the current presidential candidates, I will be deeply saddened and frustrated beyond any ability to express by feelings.

The ship of state changes direction very, very slowly...almost imperceptably. I hope and pray that a change of direction in the governance of our country is actually underway and I just haven't been able to see it.
[/quote]

Originally Posted by Villages Kahuna

...why are we spending so much time continuing the debate on the relative levels of experience of the two candidates for President?

Doesn't it boil down to a question of do you think that lots of changes are needed domestically, economically, internationally, in defense, in social programs, in education, etc.? Or would you be satisfied if the situation and problems confronting our country continued for another four years?

If we consider the alternatives, our November choice seems pretty clear. That choice has little to do with the relative level of experience reflected on the resumés of the candidates.

kahuna, you nailed it right on the head. That's exactly what has already made up my mind.

Perhaps, I'm missing something (which wouldn't be the first time)....

If the potential office-holder does not have the education, training and experience to fulfill all of the duties and tasks required of the office-holder, then the potential office-holder will either be destined to make some serious errors-in-judgment despite having the best of intentions or be darned lucky.

So far, neither potential office-holder has indicated who will be among their key advisors, and apparently much of necessary education, training and experience will have to be from those advisors.

So, the bet then becomes which candidate - through a combination of personal education, training and experience; combined with that of his advisors - can best be President.

Again, since neither candidate has disclosed who will fill these key advisor roles, the only comparative is their personal qualifications.

I guess I am not much of a risk-taker, because I have a darned hard time accepting the "trust me, I can change things" Pied Piper concept. Change as a rallying cry can be hypnotic, especially among the young who rebel against everything associated with the "old folks." And if there is going to be change, then there had better be more than "inspiring rhetoric" behind it or we will all Pay the Piper big time!

There are many things I'd like to see changed, but several of those only require tweaking rather than being gutted. And some of those things I'd like changed run totally counter to the position of both Parties.

Most of all, I don't want change which only results in a bigger tax bite taken out of my hide.

The last few weeks of the campaign will hopefully bring more substance than style. As a woefully analytical type, I like reviewing detailed documents which describe the what, when, how and how much for any continuation of action, as well as for any change or new start.

Depending on the item/action/program, change can hurt a whole lot more than status quo. The skill most necessary of the President is to recognize which remains, which is tweaked, and which is gutted. Broad-brushing it all into one package is too simplistic, but definitely hypnotic.

A lot depends on the vice presidential candidate.

As far as experience is concerned, remember Harry "The Buck Stops Here" Truman. Although he had been in the Senate he had held no important committee positions. FDR didn't have much use for him. After all FDR was a shoo-in and could have had a trained chimp for a running mate and still would have won.

I was too young to vote in that election but I didn't have much use for Harry either. ( I was from a Republican background).

Turns out, Harry was a pretty good president. He was blind sided when FDR died. He was never in FDR's inner circle. However, he applied good old common sense, didn't lie, didn't cheat and "Gave 'em Hell". Oh, and didn't get rich either.

I am an unaffiliated voter. Neither major party has earned my support.


DC

If you don't like either candidate whose fault is it? Yours and mine. How involved did we all get in our preferred political party to see that someone we felt comfortable with was nominated? If we are not actively involved in the process we are not fulfilling our responsibility as a citizen! If you have so far, and continue to have, an active involvement in the process and can discuss the differences in issues between the candidates than I will respect your opinion. Otherwise you're just talking nonsense.

Experience......I recently saw George Will on CSPAN discussing a book he has written and in that discussion he was talking about how the Obama campaign always refers to JFK's age when speaking of whether he is ready or not. Seems that JFK screwed a lot up early on...including the management of the Bay of Pigs and a few foreign relation issues and Will claims that one of the reasons we got into Vietnam was the JFK was searching for some way to leave his mark.

Experience does count..it is only one of the issues but it surely counts.

My largest fear with Sen Obama is his training, mentors and associates. It it crammed with marxist and socialists.

I am curious, could you please list the Marxists by name? Such a statement sounds very familiar, like a Senator from Wisconsin back in the 50s stating "I have a list of communists in the State Department." but never providing the list.

I am curious, could you please list the Marxists by name? Such a statement sounds very familiar, like a Senator from Wisconsin back in the 50s stating "I have a list of communists in the State Department." but never providing the list.
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Surely....not in any particular order...

SAUL ALINSKY....A fellow who lived and died in Chicago in 1972, the author of "Rules for Radicals"..one of his students was Cesar Chavez, and actually Hillary Clinton wrote her thesis on this guy but it was not allowed to see the light of day during the Clinton presidency. The following quote is from a writer who wrote on the connection between Sen Obama and Alinsky..."Finally, in 1983, he decided to follow in the footsteps of one of his heroes, radical leftist and communist fellow traveler, Saul Alinsky. He concluded, "That's what I'll do… I'll organize black folks at the grass roots… for change.". However this is from his memoirs "among his friends he included "the more politically active black students, foreign students, Chicanos, Marxist professors, feminists, and punk rock performance poets."
This is a quote from Sen Obama discussing some things about Alinsky....""Sometimes the tendency in community organizing of the sort done by Alinsky was to downplay the power of words and of ideas when in fact ideas and words are pretty powerful. 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, all men are created equal.' Those are just words. 'I have a dream.' Just words."

There is a lot more out there but I am trying to keep away from the facts twister.

FRANK MARSHALL DAVIS...A labor activist known for his communist connections. He died in 1987 but during the 70s Sen Obama had a very close relationship with him and this is the guy that when Sen Obama refers to Frank his advisor that folks say he is referring to.

Again, I am trying to stay away from some of the other things out there because to my knowledge no verification on some stuff but lots and lots of smoke.

WILIAM AYERS...one of the famous WEATHERMEN of the 60's who bombed and killed. I cannot comment on any relationship here because the only facts are that Ayers contributed to Obamas campaign which in itself means nothing...they did served together at the same time on a board or two in Chicago however.

Now, I could add that Sen Obama has received an enthusiatic endorsement from the American Communist party or mention Rev Wright, etc, but my point is and always has been on this...

My concern with Sen Obama is that there is NO list of accomplishments for him...if you look at the current legislation he proffered in Congress (Global Poverty Act)..that is pretty socialist, and he himself has said he wants to "reallocate the worlds resources".....Lacking any achievements to make a consideration on, TO ME...it would seem that his training and past associates and those he calls mentors would be most important. Now, I find the above plus more but much of that falls into a catagory of hearsay...but this is what I have to go on...nothing more.

This is my concern...I am NOT a supporter of Sen McCain....I agree with some and disagree with other things he has done or stood for. In the case of Sen Obama, my concern is simply that he seems to stand for a very far left, socialist program and that is something I oppose.

I am open minded if you can allay any of my fears !

By the way OHIOGOLF, I could not agree with you more in being concerned about mimicking that Sen McCarthy on this guy or any others.
Problem is with Sen Obama who has done so very little....actually served in Congress for such a very short number of days, you gotta judge him somehow. Sure you can go with your "gut" and thats fine but I tend to look into things especially this year because CHANGE is such an easy easy thing to say with the mood of the country and that is my concern.

Well, there's no question McCain has more experience - he's 72 years old!

What it comes down to is choosing the candidate who has less experience but has good ideas and good solutions, or the candidate with more experience but bad ideas and no solutions. Many people think the candidate who has good ideas is more likely to lead the country in a new and better direction.

Well, there's no question McCain has more experience - he's 72 years old!

What it comes down to is choosing the candidate who has less experience but has good ideas and good solutions, or the candidate with more experience but bad ideas and no solutions. Many people think the candidate who has good ideas is more likely to lead the country in a new and better direction.
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I did not reference experience DIRECTLY. I simply was making the point that since Sen Obama has none, then you should look more closely at his associates and mentors. That was my point !

If change will bring socialism or marxism to my country then I dont need it. I hate to use those words, I really do, but if you look at Sen Obama's short bio and those he CHOSE to be with and learn from, it just scares me. I will vote for Sen McCain not because of his experience, not because I support all he proposes but simply because as the Democrats seem to do pretty consistently they gave no alternative !

Also check out the new book by George Will where he makes the point how some experience does really count. He uses JFK and the numerous bungles he made early on and how we got into Vietnam PERHAPS as a result. Interesting stuff !

Bucco, why all this dancing around. Listen to Obama and his stand on the issues. It's that simple. IMHO he has better ideas. :#1: