Originally Posted by chelsea24

.... Well, here's another one, how about over 4000 flag draped coffins?

As someone who has been in harm's way and almost came home in such a manner, I think better reflection is necessary before insinuating that any sitting President is callous regarding military deaths.

WWII, Korea and Vietnam resulted in over 380,000 military deaths. The administrations in power at the time for 90% of those were Democratic. This is not an indictment of the Democratic Party - just a realism that things happen on an administration's watch and since we have given these folk this authority ("power" if you will..) to act on our behalf - hopefully because they have common sense, ethics, knowledge and experience, and reasonably decent judgment - we need to reflect why we gave them that authority "back then" as opposed to someone else. These folk have access to a LOT of information - much of which can't be made 'open' lest it be used against those we want to protect the most. So, the question is whether we still trust their judgement or not based on what information they had available to them then, and if not, why not?

While wars rage, there are always those who advocate to cut-and-run, as all wars last longer than the patience of the public. In many ways, that's good, because it shows we as a people are sensitive to the loss of life and view those who serve as valuable members of society who should not be 'consumed'. That doesn't change the fact that "things happen" during an administration that no one could foresee, and the decision to deploy the military into harm's way happens. That decision is never taken lightly, as it is never really popular for long. We Americans are an impatient people who expect immediate gratification (and success), and that expectation is often exploitable by those who would do us harm.

Thanks to the foresight of many, no one person can remain as President anymore longer than two terms of office. That also means a complete change shall occur in all appointed leadership posts within the Executive Branch as well when administrations change.

However anyone feels about the administration today, the real question is, based on the state of the world and country as it is today, what do we want to occur next and who do we trust to take over as "CEO" of the Executive Branch next to make it happen?

There is no way to accurately forecast whether the next administration is going to find itself facing the potential for another war after Iraq and Afghanistan dissipate. My gut fear is that another one will happen, and the pointing at coffins and anguish of death will occur again to include the tagging of the then-sitting administration as the perpetrators of the situation. It's just the way of things.

Steve Z, I'm sure Bush does feel guily in his quiet hours. He's human. (I think?) But HE did start this unwarranted war. I'm talking as someone who has a very very dear loved one that has been over there fighting (third rotation). I pray everyday that he comes home safe and if he doesn't -- you're damned right I'll blame Bush.

4000 Dead What about the 30000 that are coming home with mental problems no arms and no legs And how do you win a war against the idiots who don't care if they live or die

Originally Posted by chelsea24

Steve Z, I'm sure Bush does feel guily in his quiet hours. He's human. (I think?) But HE did start this unwarranted war. I'm talking as someone who had a very very dear loved one that has been over there fighting (third rotation). I pray everyday that he comes home safe and if he doesn't -- you're damned right I'll blame Bush.

Chelsea24 - Don't get me wrong. War sucks, and in the end the best you get is a draw - but that's better than coming in second. I've got folk close to me there, too. It's very easy to blame one person for the horror of it all, but there's a lot of people who were involved in the decision to go there and stay there - Iraq & Afghanistan.

BSLINY - You are so right about the 30,000+ WIA. I commute between my TV home and my DC home due to work. A couple of visits to Walter Reed and Bethesda Naval can sober anyone, and there is no doubt that if the American public thought we VietVets were squirrely, wait until the PTSD issues for this latest generation of vets starts to lava to the surface in a few years. There is no doubt that a job with the V.A. has the greatest amount of job security ever, as their work load will really go off the charts.l

Let's not forget about the Iraqui people that have been killed and/or wounded.....

Originally Posted by Lil Dancer

Let's not forget about the Iraqui people that have been killed and/or wounded.....

Let's also not forget that almost all of the Iraqi killed and/or wounded has been at the hands of fellow Iraqis...

Again, WE SHOULDN'T BE THERE!

Originally Posted by chelsea24

Again, WE SHOULDN'T BE THERE! I AGREE

You know, I have been monitoring TOTV, and just really discovered the political forum - you guys are a hoot! I must compliment you on discussing without resorting to personal attacks - I am very impressed by that. Just a few things -

1. Just so you know, I am 44, thinking about buying a property in TV for the tax break and so my parents can "snowbird" there.

2. It is most interesting for me, as someone who works at a major corporation (as a supply chain manager) to listen to all of you retirees who get your news from the liberal media. Let me tune you in to a little secret - the economy is not bad at all. Yes, there are some foreclosures and credit is tight. The market is down from its highs, but it is still higher than it was about 18 months ago. The thing I am disappointed in is that all of you who lived through 1970s would even buy the "recession" hype. There is no doubt the economy has slowed down, but the reality is that unemployment is still at historic lows, there is a severe worker shortage, and salaries are increasing. I get head hunter calls 3-4 times a week as do all my friends. Our company is running at a very steady pace. Our biggest problem is that world demand for resources is strong, and prices remain high because we are exporting.

3. The real problem with our government is not the Dems or Reps, it is that there is NO difference. Could we please have somebody that would balance the budget and stop all the earmarks? I mean come on already. We kicking out the Reps because the dems were going to fix this, but as I suspected, they are worse. Poo on all of them. I agree about splitting the government between parties - a good idea in my book, unless you could get Republicans to act conservative instead of just running that way, then turning into democrats when they hit the hill.

4. Iraq - get a backbone. Almost all of those killed OR wounded volunteered AFTER we invaded and believe in what they are fighting for (which by the way, despite all of you spineless types, IS a good thing). I was an Armor officer, and there is nothing a soldier hates more than bleeding hearts back home who don't really care about them. People don't go back for 3 tours when they think what we are doing is not right. Use some common sense. And BTW - Saddam killed MILLIONS, believe me, these people are much better off than they were when he was running things. And why don't you all worry about the 40,000 people killed in car accidents in this country as much as the 4000 killed over there in 5 years? Amazing.

5. Loved Redwitch post on liberals - use the dictionary, right. To me, the argument is very simple - and has NOTHING to do with how much anybody cares. Conservatives care just as much as liberals, and are just as broadminded. That is not the issue. Here is the difference -

Liberals look at the answer to any problem as obvious and the government as the answer - for instance, if people are hungry, the government should give them food. The other thing liberals tend to think is that it is always someone elses fault - they are in jail because they are black, not because they commited a crime, etc... it is societies fault.

Conservatives look past the obvious answer, because they are aware of the basic law of unintended consequences and they look at the Market as the answer. For instance, they look at hunger and realize you can't just have the government feed people, because it will destroy poor families, create dependency, etc. So conservatives believe you need to help people by teaching them a skill and letting the market work its magic. Conservatives are big on personal responsibility - which can seem heartless to some, but really is not.

Neither philisophy is perfect, I think there is a balance. We need government - but we need to use it correctly. The worst thing about government is even if a new program does not work, it never goes away!!! We need to cost reduce the government. Not really a hard thing to do, we just have no spine for it. It will have to become a crisis before we do.

I think many times - liberals and conservatives agree on more than they admit and we just argue about the minutae. it is pretty funny really. Nobody thinks we should go back to 70% marginal tax brackets so we argue abou 35 versus 38 as the top bracket - give me a break.

And by the way - who picked these 3 as the best we could do for president?? Man, I know we could do better -

1. A women who says she has experience because her husband had the job - it would be like me going in tommorrow and doing Stress tests (my wifes job).... insane

2. A guy from the Chicago political machine, backed by a bunch of unions, who is more liberal than Dennis Kucinich, but is running as a moderate. He is running for Change, but has no track record of any change at all.

3. A guy who has been in the senate for about 200 years - ok, he is an awesome war hero and has shown some propensity for reaching across the aisle, but campaign finance reform? Couldn't he find something else to do that with? Well, I will vote for him because the alternative make me choke - but that does not mean I am doing backflips either. Not that many of the other Dems or Reps were much better. I wanted to like Romney, but just could not warm up to him.
oh well. we get what we deserve. Ronald Reagan, where are you when we need you??????????????????????????????????

BTW- for those of you "retreaters" when will be getting out of Germany, Bosnia, and Korea - all started by Democrats, and we are still there.

Originally Posted by Packer Fan

You know, I have been monitoring TOTV, and just really discovered the political forum - you guys are a hoot! I must compliment you on discussing without resorting to personal attacks - I am very impressed by that. Just a few things -

1. Just so you know, I am 44, thinking about buying a property in TV for the tax break and so my parents can "snowbird" there.

2. It is most interesting for me, as someone who works at a major corporation (as a supply chain manager) to listen to all of you retirees who get your news from the liberal media.

No comment about your content/opinions here or in the other threads. However, I think there is a possibility that you might be misjudging the audience. First, a lot of the members here are similar to you, working "up north" while looking into TV. They have similar work experiences and similar sources of information. Second, do not underestimate we "retirees" who have settled here. The stereotype of the pink haired ladies whose lives revolve around playing bridge and going to the earlybird special doesn't apply. Here the stereotype might be the pretty physically fit individual going to the wellness center, doing volunteer work at the hospital, getting in a quick 9 holes of golf, going to a class on the history of Jerusalem or maybe genealogy at the Lifetime Learning Center, and attending a meeting of their local Republican or Democrat party. And then finishing the day with a late dinner at one of the squares. And then the next day is really busy.

Folks here are well informed. Some may be delusional (and we'll leave it open as to which side that is), but it's not for lack of information. We even have the FOX News Channel. Now if we only had Fox Business News. I'm very happy to see your posts and look forward to your comments in the future.

OK, let me get this straight, you think us "retirees" all live in a comatose state, you think the economy is not bad, you think there's only been a few forclosures, you think we should be in Iraq, you're voting for McCain, AND you're a Packer Fan! I find myself speechless and as Uncle Muncle will tell you, that's a rare occurrence.

Take it from a Chicago girl -- NEVER CALL A COOT A HOOT!

Chels, you forgot to mention he thinks Reagan walked on water.

Some people down there at TV knows that here in the North and mostly North East of the country is Liberal Country, after 45 years listening to this garbage of Right Wing Politics I am desperate to get out of here and go to a place where the news are not so distorted.
Our young people are being brainwashed in the Universities by the Left wing professors, that dont see anything wrong on making a fortune on salaries and benefits as long as the rich people pay, and their repayment to society is to infect the students minds with their left wing philosophies. Some one once said that America will be taken without shouting a bullet and I am tending to believe it. On the same subject, there is a CD called: "ISLAM VS ISLAMISTS" that everyone should see to understand what is really going on.

Originally Posted by redwitch

Chels, you forgot to mention he thinks Reagan walked on water. OH NY GOSH HE DIDN'T

1. Muncle - like your comments, nothing I did not know. However, I think if your only sources of information are the major networks and the news networks(including FOX btw), you are not getting half the picture. Now, if you throw in the BBC, and BBC world, you add a lot. If you add in a few Asian news channels, you might have more. If you throw in Autonews, the Wall street Journal, Platts, AMM, and the 10 or 12 other business news release services I get all the time, you start to get the real picture of what is going on in the economy. Ok, you can throw in the internet - but there is a lot of junk to sort through first.

2. I never said anything about pink haired old ladies. I have a good friend who owns a home down there, and I have been through, that is why I am on this board. I am planning on buying a place in TV - probably sooner than later. I am waiting for the market to bottom out. From everything I have read, my political views will fit in just fine down there.

3. Just for Hillary's daughter ;D and Redwitch info, where I live is a heck of a lot more liberal than Florida - I mean I come from the land of Russ Fiengold for heaven's sakes! And our taxes make you blush they are so high.... I can argue with liberals with the best of them - I am surrounded up here.

BTW - Chelsea - have you walked in on Daddy lately, or maybe you were evading sniper fire with your mom (I am just KIDDING here).

4. I never said Reagan walked on Water - I just think he was a great president because he stuck to his principles - he was not perfect by any means. There are 2 great failures he had in my opinion - first, he never stood up to congress on spending and made them cut things like he wanted to, he gave in a little too much there. Also, he handled Iran Contra badly - he should have told the Dems to Shove it and shut up.

5. Not only am I a Packer Fan - I noticed the Brewers took the series against the cubs to open the season - 2-1....... :#1:

6. Efrahin- I am not sure I get the point of the first half of your post, I think I am missing something- however, I agree when you on what I THINK you are trying to say, but mispelled-
"America will be taken down without SHOOTING a bullet". I believe you are saying we will self destruct. I don't disagree -

We are fat and whine how bad things are
We make excuses for everyone who commts a crime and wonder why society is out of control.
We give the Lazy people anything they want, and wonder why our kids don't want to work.
We don't want to go through the hard work of going to college, and then wonder why we can't get a job.

And it is always somebody else's fault........

We will pay for this, sooner than later. I just hope I am gone when it happens.