Originally Posted by junglejim

The choice is pretty clear. Do you feel America should become an empire and preemptive strike any nation that has resources we need? Do you look forward to government that doesn't function and will eliminate social security? Do you feel secret containment camps which allow people to just vanish and be tortured are good for the country? Do you believe the middle class should be eliminated? Do you think the media and internet should be controlled by the government? Do you believe we should always be in a state of war because that is what fuels an empire that believes that might makes right?
About 80% of the country now feels stay the course is not an option. They see the dark path we are on. If the votes get counted this time and the results don't reflect this we will know that democracy and freedom will be in grave jeopardy.

I am sorry Muncle but I could not let the second sentence in JJ's post go. I am tired of hearing how this is all's GWB's fault. I don't agree with the rest of it either, but that is just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Muncle

Bush lied and people died.

You got that right Muncle. :bigthumbsup:

Originally Posted by junglejim

The choice is pretty clear. Do you feel America should become an empire and preemptive strike any nation that has resources we need? Do you look forward to government that doesn't function and will eliminate social security? Do you feel secret containment camps which allow people to just vanish and be tortured are good for the country? Do you believe the middle class should be eliminated? Do you think the media and internet should be controlled by the government? Do you believe we should always be in a state of war because that is what fuels an empire that believes that might makes right?
About 80% of the country now feels stay the course is not an option. They see the dark path we are on. If the votes get counted this time and the results don't reflect this we will know that democracy and freedom will be in grave jeopardy.

So, what's wrong with preemptive strikes? Why is it we have to get our noses bloodied before we take any action. If The USS Maine, Pearl Harbor, and 9/11 haven't taught us anything, it's that if you wait long enough, you WILL get tagged but good.

If social security takes a cut, it will be because of all the "extras" that have been added to it since its creation. However, since there are so many voters tied to it, and the fix always remains the same (raise the salary ceiling level), it will outlive all of us and then some.

Regarding "secret containment camps," I must say that I really don't care if they exist or not. If the end-goal is that Americans can sleep at night without sirens warning of impending attack, and that we can travel this country devoid of guerrilla warfare targeting us as we go, and that the "campers" found themselves there because they want to do my kids, my spouse, the rest of my family and friends, and even me some kind of harm for whatever reason, then to me that's at least some of my tax money spent for my safety - and it's okay with me.

The "empire" is the most philanthropic entity on the planet. The list of charities supported either solely or mainly by Americans is immense to the point that in some lands people can eat or have medicine only because of American compassion - individually and governmentally. We have empire-built all right, a humanitarian empire. We have not by swallowing up nations, but instead have been the most concerned neighbor most of these countries have ever seen, especially following the colonial regimes that held them hostage in prior years.

War sucks, but I truly believe peace-in-chains is worse. I'm not naive enough to believe that there will not be folk who will try to take by whatever means we as a diverse and united people have created in this slice of North America. Such nasty folk will be around forever. Experience has taught me that diplomacy goes only so far with a bully, and the best you can get with a bully is an armistice. Eventually, even if it is unfortunate to many, occasionally you may have to kick some butt if you want to keep what you got.

Nobody is more of a peacenik than someone who has been the hunted. You can find them in American Legion, VFW and VVA halls around the country. They may be part of that 80%, but not necessarily because they think the war is wrong, but the tactics and strategy are too familiar.

How or when this war ends should not be the issue. The REAL issue should be that when this war ends, the conclusion is such that we don't find ourselves back there in 10 to 20 years and much greater expense in lives and money to again take on what we should have had the guts and brains to finish correctly and completely the first time.

Well said Steve. I'm wondering why this thread even still has legs. What nonsense.

My question is this, How does one attend a church for 20 years and not know what their Pastor preaches or believes? Does Obama have a hearing problem?

Originally Posted by GatorFan

My question is this, How does one attend a church for 20 years and not know what their Pastor preaches or believes? Does Obama have a hearing problem?

I guess I'm getting cynical as the years go by. It does not matter what Sen. Obama or Sen. McCain say from here on out. They have speechwriters, image consultants, makeup artists, public opinion analysts, and every other type of specialist to present whatever image best fits the audience du jour. The candidate from here out is a marionette.

From here on out, I'm paying more attention to finding out who is owed what for campaign services and endorsements, as those are the folks who will get the plum jobs as appointees when the confetti is swept away. Those appointees are the ones who really are the key folk, as they will be the advisers, directors, and overall Party controllers during the next administration.

Originally Posted by GatorFan

My question is this, How does one attend a church for 20 years and not know what their Pastor preaches or believes? Does Obama have a hearing problem?

His hearing probably isn't any better than John McCain's.: "McCain has sought to shore up evangelicals skeptical about his stances on issues like stem-cell research and his past run-ins with movement leaders. But two evangelical pastors McCain did win over — John Hagee of Texas and Rod Parsley of Ohio — were tied to statements causing offense to all three monotheistic faiths.

Hagee has been criticized as anti-Catholic, but McCain rejected his endorsement only after a Web site unearthed a sermon Hagee gave portraying Hitler as a tool God used to deliver Jews to the promised land.

McCain disowned Parsley's endorsement after ABC News reported that he had called Islam an "anti-Christ" religion and the Prophet Muhammad "the mouthpiece of a conspiracy of spiritual evil.".

McCain supporters say it's unfair to equate his endorsements with the Obama-Wright saga. Wright, after all, was Obama's pastor for 20 years, while neither Hagee nor Parsley ever were pastors to McCain. Obama would have known about Wright's incendiary remarks if he spent any time in church, critics say.

Obama backers counter that a double-standard is at work if the pastors endorsing McCain aren't scrutinized, given that McCain sought them out and praised them as exemplary leaders."

Good post Lil Dancer!

Hey! slips of the tongue say a lot about the person like;

Poor people aren't necessarily killers.
Redefining the role of the United States from enablers to keep the peace to enablers to keep the peace from peacekeepers is going to be an assignment.
Eliminate the tollbooth to the middle class.
See, the Senate wants to take away some of the powers of the Administrative branch.
I'm the decider, and I decide what is best. And what's best is for Don Rumsfeld to remain as the Secretary of Defense.
Do you realize we've got 250 million years of coal?
Every case I have reviewed I have been comfortable with the innocence or guilt of the person that I've looked at. I do not believe we've put a guilty...I mean innocent person to death in the state of Texas.
Natural gas is hemispheric. I like to call it hemispheric in nature because it is a product that we can find in our neighborhoods.
They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program.
God loves you, and I love you. And you can count on both of us as a powerful message that people who wonder about their future can hear.
Eliminate the death tax, so that people who build up assets are able to transfer them from one generation to the next, regardless of a person's race.
Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.
Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?
George Washington, the first president, of course. The interesting thing about him is that I read three---three or four books about him last year. Isn't that interesting?
Except when yer marchin' to war, it's not a very optimistic thought, is it? In other words, it's the opposite of optimistic when yer thinkin' yer goin' to war.
We spent a lot of time talkin' about Africa, as we should. Africa is a nation that suffers from incredible disease.
Budget numbers are not just estimates; these are actual results for the fiscal year that ended February the thirtieth.
Unfairly but truthfully, our party has been tagged as bein' against things. Anti-immigrant, for example.
See, in my line 'o work you gotta keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in...to kinda catapult the propaganda.
Heh heh heh. Heh heh heh. Heh heh heh.

It's hard to quote Bush...........you can't use the spell & grammer check. Can you believe this guy says GOD speaks thru him? Judgement day is going to be bad for King George.

God would certainly be more gramatically correct than GB, LOL! Great post JJ.

All right, I've laid off this for awhile, but you got me.
First, I have read that President Bush lied. Just when was this? Remembering, of course, that it is not a "lie" if you bellieve you are telling the truth. Also, I read that President Bush is "dumb". I see no evidence of this either. He has an Ivy league MBA. I know from experience that they do not give them away to dumb people.

You're right they don't give them away. George Bush blew the myth out of the water that an Ivy League degree was special. He lives by the rules that the only things important in this world are how much money you have and who you know. If you have enough money and connections you can buy an education and even the highest office in the land. All his life George has been telling people do you know who I am?, the rules don't apply to me and don't mess with me or you'll regret it. He appointed cronies with no experience or qualifications to important, responsible positions. Now some of his supporters on this board are saying experience matters? Where were they the last 8 years?
When has Bush told the truth?
We will withdraw from Iraq if the Iraq government asks us to, Iraqi's Oppose Withdrawal Timetable, Iraq presented an imminent threat to the US and its allies, The Bush administration repeatedly has constantly tried to link Iraq to the September 11th attacks, The Bush administration religiously chanted the contention that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction as its basis for a war, Bush charged that “ . . more than a hundred Democrats in the House and the Senate -- who had access to the same intelligence -- voted to support removing Saddam Hussein from power, Defense Donald Rumsfeld claimed that the number of troops in Iraq is not a decision I make. This is a decision that's made by the military commanders. [Retired] Gen. [Tommy R.] Franks, Gen. [John P.] Abizaid, Gen. [George W.] Casey [Jr.] have decided what those numbers are, And I have yet to hear from our commanders on the ground that they need more troops. President Bush (11/04/04), FISA could not have provided the speed and agility required for the early warning detection system."
I could go on and on.

To all of those out there who think torture is a good idea (I hope this is not some new club you folks are trying to get started, count me out!) read this;

The two-star general who led an Army investigation into the horrific detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib has accused the Bush administration of war crimes and is calling for accountability.
In his 2004 report on Abu Ghraib, then-Major General Anthony Taguba concluded that "numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees." He called the abuse "systemic and illegal." The general was rewarded for his honesty by being forced into retirement. Now, in a preface to a Physicians for Human Rights report based on medical examinations of former detainees, Taguba adds an epilogue to his own investigation. The new report, he writes, "tells the largely untold human story of what happened to detainees in our custody when the Commander-in-Chief and those under him authorized a systematic regime of torture. Our national honor is stained by the indignity and inhumane treatment these men received from their captors."The profiles of these eleven former detainees, none of whom were ever charged with a crime or told why they were detained, are tragic and brutal rebuttals to those who claim that torture is ever justified. Through the experiences of these men in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantanamo Bay, we can see the full-scope of the damage this illegal and unsound policy has inflicted --both on America's institutions and our nation's founding values, which the military, intelligence services, and our justice system are duty-bound to defend. In order for these individuals to suffer the wanton cruelty to which they were subjected, a government policy was promulgated to the field whereby the Geneva Conventions and the Uniform Code of Military Justice were disregarded. The UN Convention Against Torture was indiscriminately ignored. . . . "After years of disclosures by government investigations, media accounts, and reports from human rights organizations, there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes. The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account."
This is just a general speaking, what does he know.

Originally Posted by junglejim

......
In his 2004 report on Abu Ghraib, then-Major General Anthony Taguba concluded that "numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees." He called the abuse "systemic and illegal." The general was rewarded for his honesty by being forced into retirement. ...............
The profiles of these eleven former detainees, none of whom were ever charged with a crime or told why they were detained, are tragic and brutal rebuttals to those who claim that torture is ever justified. ..........

It is understandable that folks can find themselves horrified that Americans could inflict torture upon anyone. After all, we're all supposed to be holier-than-thou and follow the "say Uncle" concept of ending a fight.

To despise torture is easy from one's armchair. It's very easy to understand it being applied by over-stressed young people who have witnessed friends blown apart, knowing full well that such horror is forthcoming and those "individuals" know who is behind it, probably when it will happen next, may have participated in the horror, and know where the traps and IEDs are.

General Taguba's report was highly detailed in its description of all of the factors - morale, training, stress, vagueness of orders, command failures, etc. - leading to the Abu Ghraib situation. It's worth reading the entire report to get a better understanding of what those young people at the far end of the feed chain experienced.

Warfare is not a clean and neat event. It's the most brutal experience there is, and the Marquis of Queensbury Rules do not apply. At the armchair and ivory tower level, warfare is more observed than experienced, and in most circumstances becomes an intricate chess match or numbers game. For those in lofty status, quoting UN rules and Codes of Conduct is very easy, and makes the whole warfare experience "simplified." However, for the grunt having to be in the muck and mire, stressed, seeing body parts flying in different directions, it just isn't that cut-and-dried. It takes a LOT of training and discipline to keep a force in control, and when you just don't have the training to match the situation, "stuff" happens and it just ain't pretty.

Crimes are crimes, and those who commit them find themselves prosecuted if the evidence is there to indicate a conviction will occur. However, political prosecutions because "we just know..." is an abuse of the justice system, and also a crime.

Do the ones who qualify as "rich and/or famous" normally have "less justice" meted out on them? Well, that's been the way it has been as long as I've followed the legal system. From OJ to Brittany to Ted Kennedy to a list ad infinitum, that's the way it has been.

Stevez: Well said, there can not be a clean war.
Regarding the Powerful, Rich, Famous and Politicians. We are all equal under the law; however some are "more equal" than others.