When I saw the title of this thread I was sure it was about Alan Grayson.

Originally Posted by Number 6

When I saw the title of this thread I was sure it was about Alan Grayson.

My thoughts exactly. Now we need to get rid of Al Franken.

Originally Posted by djplong

Richie: It also doesn't say "gun rights" in the Consitution. But "the right to keep and bear arms", which is what that translates to, IS in there.

No, "separation of church and state" isn't technically in there, but "shall pass no loaw respecting an establishment of religion" IS in there, which is what that translates to, ACCORDING TO THE PEOPLE THAT WROTE THE CONSITUTION - the exact words in letters written later are "wall of separation".

O'Donnel thought, as many do, that the Constitution 'only' forbids an 'official religion'. They think it says "respecting an establishment of A religion" and it does NOT.. It's a VERY important distinction.

You're awful stubborn about this and your desire to "reword" the Constitution.
Let me try again so it might be understood.

Congress shall pass no law RESPECTING the establishment of religion.

Main Entry: respecting
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: regarding
Synonyms: about, as to, concerning, in connection with, in respect to, referring to, relating to, with reference to, with regard to

Where in the word "respecting" do you extract "seperation"?

Let me answer for you; NO WHERE!!!!! Just substitute any synonym for "respecting" in place of the word and, then again, tell me how you wrench "seperation" out of that word.

So you have to then refer to "letters" written by a founder, or a activist court "re-interpretation" to justify your bastardizing of this solemn document. The Constitution, as written had to be debated and ratified by the Congress and I don't think they would appreciate it that you are "reinterpreting" and "redefining" it after the fact.
As I have stated previously the Constitution, unlike the Bible, was not written in metaphors or parables. It's a simple and succinctly written document that leaves no room for creative reading. This is yours and the activists in the highest courts dilemma in trying to institute your own biases in the nations founding documents.

I know by now that you won't accept this because anti-religiousity seems to be a prime aspect of "your religion", but the truth is the truth no matter how you rail against it.

You got it wrong again.

You said "respecting the establishment of religion". It reads "respecting an establishment of religion"

That's a HUGE difference. "an establishment of religion" refers to things like churches, schools, etc. "THE establishment or religion" covers a LOT more than that - it could be argued that would include the very belief in God to begin with.

djplong, I remember you said you were interested in history. Take a look at this. It is very edcuational for everyone. I think it is a real treasure.

It is the Elementary Catechism on the Constitution of the
United States by Arthur J. Stansbury, 1828. At one time it was used in schools.

I love this quote from the book,

"...remember that this precious Constitution, thus wise, thus just, is your birth-right. It has been earned for you by your fathers, who counseled much, labored long, and shed their dearest blood, to win it for their children.

"To them, it was the fruit of toil and danger ---to you, it is a gift. Do not slight it on that account, but prize it as you ought. It is yours, no human power can deprive you of it but your own folly and wickedness. To undervalue, is one of the surest ways to lose it.

"Take pains to know what the Constitution is ---the more you study, the higher you will esteem it. The better you understand your own rights, the more likely you will be to preserve and guard them.

"And, in the last place, my beloved young countrymen, your country's hope, her treasure, and one day to be her pride and her defence; remember that a constitution which gives to the people so much freedom, and entrusts them with so much power, rests for its permanency, on their knowledge and virtue...

"The virtuous citizen is the true noble. He who enlightens his understanding--controls his passions--feels for his country's honor--rejoices in her prosperity--steps forth to aid her in the hour of danger--devotes to her advancement the fruits of his mind, and consecrates to her cause, his time, his property, and his noblest powers, such a man is one of God's nobility... We have seen such men among us; we hope to see many more."

Starting on page 68, the issue of religious freedom is discussed.




http://www.americanjusticefoundation...nstitution.pdf

Originally Posted by djplong

You got it wrong again.

You said "respecting the establishment of religion". It reads "respecting an establishment of religion"

That's a HUGE difference. "an establishment of religion" refers to things like churches, schools, etc. "THE establishment or religion" covers a LOT more than that - it could be argued that would include the very belief in God to begin with.

That's nuts!! There's no elemental difference of the facts or meaning thereof, even with my misnomer. You still are bastardizing the meaning. Congress cannot establish a religion; granted. Congress does not have to hide religion from your presence in the public square.

BK: I'm reminded of a line from "National Treasure". "People just don't write like that anymore".

Richie: Again, you did it. You used "establish" as a verb and not the noun that it was originally written. That's the single-most common error I've ever seen when it comes to reading the Constitution (the second being what the meaning of "well-regulated militia" is).

Read the writings of Jefferson and Madison.

And NO Congress does NOT have to hide religion from the public square - that's been established time and time again. What HAS been prohibited is preferring one over the other. You can't allow a nativity scene and prohibit a menorah.

What DOES happen is that local districts in their brainless and spineless wisdom decide they don't want to dip their toe into the controversy and prohibit EVERYTHING.

Originally Posted by djplong

Richie: Again, you did it. You used "establish" as a verb and not the noun that it was originally written. That's the single-most common error I've ever seen when it comes to reading the Constitution (the second being what the meaning of "well-regulated militia" is).

Read the writings of Jefferson and Madison.

And NO Congress does NOT have to hide religion from the public square - that's been established time and time again. What HAS been prohibited is preferring one over the other. You can't allow a nativity scene and prohibit a menorah.

What DOES happen is that local districts in their brainless and spineless wisdom decide they don't want to dip their toe into the controversy and prohibit EVERYTHING.

The key word in the sentence is "respecting". That's the defining word in the sentence that conveys the meaning that is intended. That's your mistake and not mine. I have to read no writing besides the Constitution to understand the meaning. You have to reference other writings to suit your preferred definition and try to justify it.

The "key word" is THE WHOLE SENTENCE. If you concentrate on just one word, one COULD say "They said Congress - so that means New Hampshire can have an official religion".

My point is that one of those words has been frequently misinterpreted (and another word added) and THAT changes the meaning of the whole thing.

Originally Posted by djplong

The "key word" is THE WHOLE SENTENCE. If you concentrate on just one word, one COULD say "They said Congress - so that means New Hampshire can have an official religion".

My point is that one of those words has been frequently misinterpreted (and another word added) and THAT changes the meaning of the whole thing.

That's a real bit of overreaching on your part. It's really not complicated. The word "respecting" is an adjective. An adjective modifies a noun. It describes the quality, state or action that a noun refers to.

The noun that the adjective "respecting" is modifying is the word "establishment".

Word: respecting
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: regarding
Synonyms: about, as to, concerning, in connection with, in respect to, referring to, relating to, with reference to, with regard to

Word: establishment
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: organization; creation
Synonyms: enactment, endowment, formation, formulation, foundation, founding, inauguration, installation, institution, setting up

So, in fact, what the sentence in the Constitution is saying is that Congress shall not enact any law REGARDING the CREATION of religion ...... PERIOD!!!

Thank you for at least making my point. Except I think you mistyped it. Using your definition substitutions it would read

"Congress shall pass no law REGARDING an ORGANIZATION of religion" although it sounds a little sillier when you say "REGARDING an CREATION of religion" and I think it would be more grammatically appropriate to say "REGARDING a CREATION of religion" - again with creation being a noun, not a verb. It would have been even EASIER to misinterpret if they'd used 'creation'. But still, even in that form, 'creation' as a noun still applies to a church, a school, a business or anything else created by a particular religion.

Originally Posted by djplong

Thank you for at least making my point. Except I think you mistyped it. Using your definition substitutions it would read

"Congress shall pass no law REGARDING an ORGANIZATION of religion" although it sounds a little sillier when you say "REGARDING an CREATION of religion" and I think it would be more grammatically appropriate to say "REGARDING a CREATION of religion" - again with creation being a noun, not a verb. It would have been even EASIER to misinterpret if they'd used 'creation'. But still, even in that form, 'creation' as a noun still applies to a church, a school, a business or anything else created by a particular religion.

If I "made your point", you must now agree with me that the Constitution of the United States does not, in fact, call for a separation of church and state but merely an edict that there would be no official state religion. This is why prayers are still said in Congress. Thank You.

Also you can see a new thread by Taltarzac that also makes my point by pointing out how people have misread the point of the letter to the Baptist Association of Danbury Ct. penned by Jefferson for many years, and exposes the "mythical separation of church and state"

Richie, to paraphrase others, can you tell me a place where religion and politics mix well? Here are the examples that I think of when I hear about that mix:

The Inquisition
Northern Ireland
Iran and Islamofascism.
The Vatican priest abuse scandal
The Dark Ages
The Salem Witch Trials

Combine that with the Christ himself saying how private and personal religion is - and how one should view with skepticism the person who is loudly proclaiming him faith - and that should be enough.

But remember many of Jefferson's quotes - I've quoted him before and shouldn't need to do it again.

United States of America "In God We Trust".