I'm waiting for the proof. Now, text you mention is someone's opinion and I took that with a grain of salt.

I have no compassion for certain aspects of the Catholic Church because they have been TRIED and CONVICTED.

Let me be absolutely clear on this. I was no fan of Clinton and had hopes, but not many expectations, for Obama. Yes, I voted for him because he was the least bad choice, IMO.

When the GOP went chasing after Clinton, they seized on every little scrap they could to try and bring him down. They never had anything as caustic or explosive as, say, the Iran-Contra scandal but they kept hammering at him (Clinton) over and over until people just stopped listening. The same is happening with Obama. People are trying everything they can to bring the man down - and it's wasted energy as near as I can see. They're as effective as yipping chihuahuas.

As long as this "baby food stuff" is what people are screaming about, the job of formulating a REAL message with a REAL alternative that does NOT sound like "The Party of 'No'" goes undone.

My mom is in Indiana screaming about not getting a Social Security raise for the 2nd straight year. Do you think I *like* being put in the position of telling her "Hey, you kept the previous raise even after prices went down in 2009 - your COLA didn't work in reverse"?

I've gotten to the point where I don't believe a single headline I read.

It's not exactly heartening to see the GOP try to recreate their 1994 buzz by coming out with what's almost a parody of the old Contract With America. Lots of rhetoric, no details. As I was hearing on a talk show last week, "Everyone says cut spending, but they never say what to cut". Gallantly, at least one Tea Party organizer (from St. Louis) started to talk about it, but she had her numbers all wrong (claiming that TARP cost more than the Iraq War) - so there went her credibility.

Worrying about Islam taking over the United States via comic books or building a cultural center next to a topless bar is NOISE. It's POINTLESS and is detracts from the REAL threat of extremists.

Put it this way.. LET THEM BUILD THE DAMN CENTER at the hallowed grounds of the old Burlington Coat Factory. What are the possibilities?

1) It's a harmless cultural center. Big deal.

2) It's a secret terror cell. So we know where 'they' are and the authorities will be able to monitor the place.

Either way, 'we' come out winners either by demonstrating tolerance (and not reducing ourselves to the level of our enemies) of by sucker-punching terrorists and nailing them before they get to hatch something else.

..."and then I looked around and there was no one to speak out for me"

in the 9/11 attacks in NYC.
There is always a difference of opinion and or position when one is truly invested in the transgression with a loss VS a purely un-invested, philosophical position or belief.

Those of us not involved or invested in the event can only support the will of those who have lost. All the rest is nothing more than political or religious bias.

btk

Originally Posted by Whatever

..."and then I looked around and there was no one to speak out for me"

The portion of the Pastor Martin Niemöller quote you posted is very deep in respect to this discussion. I am just curious what you meant by posting it here. It can be taken many different ways and I'm just wondering what you meant.

For those who don't know, Niemöller, was a pastor in Germany during the rise of Hitler. He supported Hilter but disagreed with some parts of Hitler's beliefs. When he became outspoken and quit going along with Hitler's murderous control of the country, Niemöller was imprisoned. He was released from a concentration camp by the Allied Forces and went on to be a pacifist and very controversial during the Vietnam War.

Here is the entire quote:

"They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

My cousin barely escaped 9/11 with his life. When they gave the 'all clear' to go into the 2nd tower, he basically said "'F' that, I'm going home" - and the second plane slammed into that tower minutes later.

It is a test of one's commitment to one's principals to stand up for them, regardless of any desire to compromise them for personal reasons.

I have several reasons I can sympathize with 'mainstream Muslims' - namely the ones I've met over the course of my life.

I was raised Catholic. I learned a lot about persecution of Catholics in history. Growing up I thought I was Irish (my hair was more red back then, didn't know I was adopted into an Irish family) and learned about "No Irish Need Apply".

More recently, my ex-wife was told something shocking to us by a mild-mannered, pillar-of-the-community type of person who lived about 12 miles away from us and hosted the BBS where we had many discussions. My ex is Pagan, specifically Wiccan. This god-fearing Christian told her that the only reason he couldn't kill her and burn her at the stake was because it was against secular law. This from a guy who lived in a nice, suburban house in Londonderry, New Hampshire in the 1990s.

I choose not to judge everyone by the actions of a few.

I choose to stick to my principals.

I choose not to blame the guy at the 7-11 for the actions of bin Laden's rumpswabs.

I choose not to castigate my families (birth and adoptive) for remaining Catholic despite the rapists in the Church. (My disgust and condemnation are targeted at the heirarchy that allowed it).

So let me pose this question.

If we are a nation of laws and not men - if we truly believe in freedom of religion, should it matter if we lost someone on 9/11?

In other words, because someone is a victim, does that mean they should have special privileges over the law?

[And, yes, as an example, I'm opposed to some of the laws that supposedly 'protect' me, like hate-crime laws, because of my Hispanic heritage which I didn't even know about until I was almost 30]

Sigh.. More topic drift. Anyone want to start a new topic to split some of these issues off?