Originally Posted by eweissenbach

I am an independent, and neither conservative nor liberal. I have never voted a straight repub or demo ticket, and will not this year. Some of my views would be considered conservative and others liberal. Most people tend to view any opinion, or even fact, as an outrageous lie, if it disagrees with their ideology. The fact is, in my opinion, that both sides of the spectrum are equal opportunity liars and manipulators of fact. If you think the other side is the sole purveyor of untruth and deceit, you are probably out of touch with reality. I get a kick out of forums like this in their predictability - I can predict with almost 100% certainty how most posters will react to a given subject. An open and broad mind is a very rare commodity.

Although I am brushing gunpowder from my shirt as I appreciate your aim, I do agree with you !

I wish and hope that Obama goes in 2012 for a lot of reasons but one is so I can prove I am not anti anything, except for this man. My fear of him unfettered is real and proven as in healthcare bill when controlling congress, I would describe myself MORE right than left but do not dismiss left wing ideas of any sort.

The only thing I disagree with is that IF you search, you can find the truth in most cases, but if you search in the same place, you never will.

Originally Posted by Bucco

Although I am brushing gunpowder from my shirt as I appreciate your aim, I do agree with you !

I wish and hope that Obama goes in 2012 for a lot of reasons but one is so I can prove I am not anti anything, except for this man. My fear of him unfettered is real and proven as in healthcare bill when controlling congress, I would describe myself MORE right than left but do not dismiss left wing ideas of any sort.

The only thing I disagree with is that IF you search, you can find the truth in most cases, but if you search in the same place, you never will.

Unfortunately, Bucco, I find the truth to be, generally, in the eye of the beholder as they say. Absolute truth is very hard to discern, and I seldom trust anyone or any source to provide absolute truth. Virtually everyone who posts, writes, or otherwise articulates and opines has an agenda or a slant to their point of view.

Originally Posted by eweissenbach

Unfortunately, Bucco, I find the truth to be, generally, in the eye of the beholder as they say. Absolute truth is very hard to discern, and I seldom trust anyone or any source to provide absolute truth. Virtually everyone who posts, writes, or otherwise articulates and opines has an agenda or a slant to their point of view.

While all you say is absolutely true, without being too philosophical on this, to get the truth, whether in your eyes or not, you need facts. At that point, you are correct, the truth is then not absolute, but it IS informed opinion. So perhaps truth is the wrong word.....and informed opinions are what I respect.

To engage in informed political discourse, you need information to arrive at whatever truth you seek, and offering opinions based on party affliation, etc and NOT seeking data to support HOW you arrived there is a big gap.

Let me add that LISTENING is important also in that information gathering.

As an example. I expressed total and complete opposition during the 2008 campaign to what we have come to know as Obamacare. However, after the primary and leading up to the election, I read as much as I could from all liberal sources and Obama himself, and found myself actually looking forward to passage of what was offered to me as the plan.

It obviously got a bit out of hand and I resent all of it now, but point is I LISTENED to what was offered and my mind was changed at that point.

You disturb me...we have disagreed a lot but agreed on most of these kind of posts...have a nice evening....looks like the Rays might go down tonight and I am off to Tampa tomorrow (at least that is the plan now)

Originally Posted by njbchbum

dalemn - watch your spelling - that should be rachael madcow!

seriously, i have tried very hard to watch her show - but her commentary makes me physically nauseous! i cannot put my finger on just why she and i do not get along - i love other people's opinion and learn much from those opinions [though i don't always agree with them] - but rachael turns my stomach!

Wouldn't want you to get ill....don't watch her.

Originally Posted by eweissenbach

I am an independent, and neither conservative nor liberal. I have never voted a straight repub or demo ticket, and will not this year. Some of my views would be considered conservative and others liberal. Most people tend to view any opinion, or even fact, as an outrageous lie, if it disagrees with their ideology. The fact is, in my opinion, that both sides of the spectrum are equal opportunity liars and manipulators of fact. If you think the other side is the sole purveyor of untruth and deceit, you are probably out of touch with reality. I get a kick out of forums like this in their predictability - I can predict with almost 100% certainty how most posters will react to a given subject. An open and broad mind is a very rare commodity.

"...both sides of the spectrum are equal opportunity liars and manipulators of fact..."

That is why I was agreeing with Bucco's comments that "they all bend the truth to where the want it to go" and that you have to read and educated yourself and not take anything at face value.

And, @Bucco, the book is on my reading list now. Thank you for the suggestion. I look forward to the read.

How's this for facts and informed opinions. Rachel Maddow showed a clip from, I think 2010, of a demonstration against Eric Holder alleging that he wanted to 'take our guns away'. Rachel asked two demonstrators what Eric Holder has done relating to gun control. Their answers? Paraphrased; 'well, i don't know but I know he is against guns'. One tried to turn the question around asking 'what hasn't he done?'. Just tell these right wingnuts anything and they will take it as gospel and demostrate. Did you all hear that Obama is considering putting a luxury tax on golf carts used for anything other that golf?

sounds like a very familiar mode of operating.....standard operating procedure for Obama supporters? The ones being interviewed probably figured they would do no harm using the same answering technique as they have repeatedly been exposed to for the last 4 years.

btk