Cabo & Tal: I know there are stories on both sides. I simply told my story that touched my heart and broke my heart. And the reason I did this was to inform people, that were never touched by any of this, that this is not just a speech, this in not a movie. This is an issue that hurts people and kills people of both races. So many are so secure sitting on their lanai's, sipping coffee, reading or listening to the words and haven't experienced it. Yet they are either very quick to make judgements, saying even more demeaning things or they just hide their heads in the sand. It's a personal experience that I shared from my heart -- and I believe Barack Obama did the same. He's literally caught between a rock and a hard place. He's damned if he does or damned if he doesn't. I think it took a lot of courage to meet this problem head on. And again, I will say, I applaud him for that. Walk a mile in his shoes before condemning him.

Originally Posted by chelsea24

Cabo & Tal: I know there are stories on both sides. I simply told my story that touched my heart and broke my heart. And the reason I did this was to inform people, that were never touched by any of this, that this is not just a speech, this in not a movie. This is an issue that hurts people and kills people of both races. So many are so secure sitting on their lanai's, sipping coffee, reading or listening to the words and haven't experienced it. Yet they are either very quick to make judgements, saying even more demeaning things or they just hide their heads in the sand. It's a personal experience that I shared from my heart -- and I believe Barack Obama did the same. He's literally caught between a rock and a hard place. He's damned if he does or damned if he doesn't. I think it took a lot of courage to meet this problem head on. And again, I will say, I applaud him for that. Walk a mile in his shoes before condemning him.

Think some movies can have a huge amount of impact on how we view things. They can show others how it was like to walk in someone else's shoes like the opening 30 minutes of Saving Private Ryan; Schindler's List; The Unforgiven; Crash and Gone, Baby, Gone.

Crash seems to be about racial tensions in LA and is quite realistic in its portrayal.

I would like to see a black man as the President of the US. Would also like to see a woman though. I had hoped that Colin Powell would run for US President at some time. Not sure whom I will vote for this November but which religious mentor some candidate had seems to be not all that important in the grand scheme of things.

I'm with Chels ... I believe Obama wrote a speech that was needed. I was responding to someone calling the speech crap because there's no question that some of it was political rhetoric. However, to me, the majority of what he said were things that needed to be said, that should have been said many years ago.

There is no question that some people scream police brutality for no reason other than to make some money. There is no question that police officers get killed in the line of duty -- sometimes by young, white men; sometimes (more often, actually) by young, black men. Maybe if people would be more willing to accept others for how they act rather than their religion, the color of their skin, their political beliefs, etc. there would be less incidents on either side. I'm hoping that by the time any future great-grandchildren of mine come around, that there will be more acceptance, less anger, hate and fear. I truly don't believe it will happen in my daughter's time or in the time of her children.

As to when I was stopped, sorry, don't buy it. This was not a "routine" stop. There was absolutely no reason to stop me other than the fact that I was a white female with a rather large black man sitting in the passenger side. Had I been speeding or doing anything even remotely illegal, I would have no objection to being pulled over with or without my friend in the car. The fact remains I was doing nothing wrong and even the officer admitted this when he pulled me over. He admitted that he pulled me over because my car was "questionable." I don't care how you look at it, it sounds like racial profiling to me and it stinks.

Let me share two brief personal stories about what you termed racial profiling.

I worked in an area where auto theft was a major problem to the tune of close to 30,000 thefts a year. It was in the New York metropolitan region and primarily involved three abutting counties. Statistics showed that the vast majority of these thefts, I believe about 90% but give me a couple of points either way, were committed by young black teenage males out of urban areas. Racial tensions arose in a certain community. I met with a group of police executives, clergy from several African-American churches and hundreds of angry residents who felt profiling young black males was becoming a problem. After several heated exchanges charging racism and profiling, two factors were put on the table. Many of the theft victims were from the same neighborhoods represented at the meeting and the above mentioned statistic about the perpetrators.

A young, educated, respected, minister stood up, quieted the audience and said, "If our community has been victimized and thieves have been statistically identified as young black males from urban areas, why wouldn't the police be checking them out. If my car was stolen, I would expect them to be checking those who fit the profile."

To a large extent the audience agreed. The meeting ended and the host church put out a buffet of homemade desserts, coffee, beverages and good will as the police and congregation broke bread together. This fairy tale ending did not stop the problem but the dialogue helped both sides to understand each others perspectives. This was only a microcosm of the effected communities, but it was a small victory for both sides. Ultimately, a joint auto theft task force that was covered on, I believe, 60 Minutes, was able to lower the number of thefts to a fraction of numbers at the peak of the problem and became a model for agencies across the country.

My second racial profiling experience. The New Jersey State Police had established special task forces that worked the southern end of the NJ Turnpike. They did target gun and drug runners coming up from southern states. This was the main pipeline for moving drugs and guns into the metropolitan area and points north up into New England. They were highly successful in interdicting this dangerous and deadly contraband. The traffickers complained about the inconvenience and tactics used by the State Police. Al Sharpton and others protested the use of profiling and that ultimately led to the disbanding of the task forces, an investigation into the State Police and the early retirement of an effective and honest State Police Superintendant who didn't deny profiling but instead showed the statistics that validated it. This occurred during the Whitman administration for those looking for a time frame. I concede that the Superintendant's position was and still is a politically incorrect position and could be debated on its merits from both sides of the issue. That debate never took place because spineless politicians and the media railroaded a good man who did his job.

Interestingly, because of my close professional interest in this issue, I recall the same Al Sharpton, several years later, protesting the increased and rampant shootings and drug abuse in Newark, N.J. and the surrounding areas. He further criticized the New Jersey State Police for not interdicting the flow of guns and drugs into this area.

Folks, you can't make this stuff up.

Redwitch, one of the problems with profiling has been the lack of a standard definition. People use it in a context that the media has largely portrayed as negative and something it really isn't. The F.B.I. for years has used profilers to identify those who are likely to commit certain violent crimes. In recent years mountains of statistics have been collated and analyzed to project with some degree of probability who is going to commit a crime and where the most likely locations might be based on previous experience. Police frequently deploy to these areas with a degree of success. This type of profiling has also been used when trying to identify potential terrorists who intend to kill and maim innocent people.

Unfortunately, there is another definition that has been bred by overzealous police officers who will make a stop based solely on race and that has been the cross that the vast majority of dedicated, honest police officers have been stereotyped with. That is the one that is constantly interjected by career felons, defense lawyers and the media.

This will probably put me in a very huge minority here but I'd rather see 10 cars stolen than see one innocent young man stopped because he fit some "profile" of potential car thieves. I went to UCLA in the 60s. Chief Davis was very open that whenever he saw a group of older teens congregating in Los Angeles, he would have his officers break them up because those troublemakers might start portesting. I remember once being slammed against a wall along with four of my friends simply for standing and talking (we were discussing what movie to see). I loathe profiling. I hate the idea that a group of people are subjected to harassment simply because of the color of their skin or their age.

Yes, I understand that statistically more crimes are committed by young people and specifically young, black men than any other group. That doesn't justify harassing them just because someone "might" do or have done something wrong. Stop them if you see them doing something wrong or if they truly fit the description of someone who has committed a crime. Don't do it simply because you THINK they might have done something. There was no reason to slam me into a wall in 1967. There was no reason to pull me over in Orinda, California, in 1983. There was certainly no reason to pull me over on Monday night.

One thing that hurt on Monday was the simple fact that I felt I had the right to be indignant and angry. My friend simply tried to calm me down and had to swallow his anger. Why? Because he was fearful of what could happen to both of us because we were together. (BTW, he was asked for his identification although I had already given the officer my driver's license and vehicle registration.) It was wrong and it was humiliating.

If I'm this angry as a middle-class, middle-aged white woman for these actions by police officers (whom I do respect and admire for the most part), is there any wonder Americans of color are angry and say so behind their closed doors (whether those doors are their homes, their clubs or their churches)? I stand by the fact that Obama said many things in his speech that needed to be said. Who knows? Maybe it will bring people together to discuss these issues one day in the near future. I can but dream.

Originally Posted by redwitch

This will probably put me in a very huge minority here but I'd rather see 10 cars stolen than see one innocent young man stopped because he fit some "profile" of potential car thieves. I went to UCLA in the 60s. Chief Davis was very open that whenever he saw a group of older teens congregating in Los Angeles, he would have his officers break them up because those troublemakers might start portesting. I remember once being slammed against a wall along with four of my friends simply for standing and talking (we were discussing what movie to see). I loathe profiling. I hate the idea that a group of people are subjected to harassment simply because of the color of their skin or their age.

Yes, I understand that statistically more crimes are committed by young people and specifically young, black men than any other group. That doesn't justify harassing them just because someone "might" do or have done something wrong. Stop them if you see them doing something wrong or if they truly fit the description of someone who has committed a crime. Don't do it simply because you THINK they might have done something. There was no reason to slam me into a wall in 1967. There was no reason to pull me over in Orinda, California, in 1983. There was certainly no reason to pull me over on Monday night.

One thing that hurt on Monday was the simple fact that I felt I had the right to be indignant and angry. My friend simply tried to calm me down and had to swallow his anger. Why? Because he was fearful of what could happen to both of us because we were together. (BTW, he was asked for his identification although I had already given the officer my driver's license and vehicle registration.) It was wrong and it was humiliating.

If I'm this angry as a middle-class, middle-aged white woman for these actions by police officers (whom I do respect and admire for the most part), is there any wonder Americans of color are angry and say so behind their closed doors (whether those doors are their homes, their clubs or their churches)? I stand by the fact that Obama said many things in his speech that needed to be said. Who knows? Maybe it will bring people together to discuss these issues one day in the near future. I can but dream.

Redwitch? Think this has a lot to do with where they are as well. The context is very important with respect to those who are pulled over.

I wonder how many times Senator Barack Obama was pulled over during his youth??

I went to a very liberal law school in 1986 and we had a entering law school class of about 250. Think 2 of those people were of African American descent and they had very different views on what their color had meant to them growing up in US society. One seemed to be quite Republican in outlook the other quite Democratic.

There were a few more African-Americans in the next entering law school class at the U of MN and one person who had claimed to be African American on his application for admittance to the U of MN but did not seem to look black to anyone who knew him. Each of these individuals also seemed to have very different perspectives on what it is to be black in the US.

Just saying that one of those African Americans being pulled over by racial profiling could just as easily be a huge fan of George W. Bush, Ann Coulter, Colin Powell, and Condoleezza Rice.

Tal, the political persuasion of one being pulled over because of race is not the point. The point is that someone who people truly listen to finally came out and said the people of color in this nation are angry. Chels and I just gave examples of why they're angry and we've seen very little compared to what some of our friends, neighbors, acquaintances and even family have experienced in the course of their lives.

There is something inherently tragic that a nation that is premised with the concepts of justice for all, individual rights, freedom has over 10% of its population believing those concepts are for white men and not them or their children.

While the issue of racial profiling is not the point of this thread, I cannot pass up commenting. It is just too simple to have a cogent discussion about racial profiling in this case, using hypothetical rhetoric. Until and unless you have a personal involvement or risk one cannot truly understand the need. If blue stick men were stealing babies and oh by the one of your grand children was stolen what would the sentiment be then???

Why can't we be realistic? Profiling is a method whereby many serious crimes have been solved. And just because the person(s) being profiled are non white....what's the deal with crying foul?

How about 56years ago when I was personally visited by the FBI for one very simple reason....me and my surroundings matched who they were looking for....WHITE male.....blond crew cut...dark rimmed glasses....blue Volkswagen...working in the shopping center where the incident in question took place. I did not feel violated because back in those days people didn't talk or think like that (I call them the good ol' days!!!).
I will tell you I was scared as hell...know your innocent and then be put in a position to prove it!!! By the way as a result of the WHITE profiling they caught the guy.

Permissive pacifism and too much playing the race card is the problem....if blue stick men were doing the deed who else would you look for???????

BTK

Originally Posted by redwitch

Tal, the political persuasion of one being pulled over because of race is not the point. The point is that someone who people truly listen to finally came out and said the people of color in this nation are angry. Chels and I just gave examples of why they're angry and we've seen very little compared to what some of our friends, neighbors, acquaintances and even family have experienced in the course of their lives.

There is something inherently tragic that a nation that is premised with the concepts of justice for all, individual rights, freedom has over 10% of its population believing those concepts are for white men and not them or their children.

They have been angry for a very long time as have many other groups who have faced discrimination from those with power in the United States. Not sure if electing a man just because he can empathize with this group is a valid criterion for evaluation of that candidate's merits.

Still would like to see more on the actual positions taken by Senator Barack Obama on various issues.

From Project Vote Smart's issue area--


"Senator Barack H. Obama Jr. repeatedly refused to provide any responses to citizens on the issues through the 2008 Political Courage Test when asked to do so by national leaders of the political parties, prominent members of the media, Project Vote Smart President Richard Kimball, and Project Vote Smart staff." http://www.votesmart.org/npat.php?can_id=9490

BTK, there's a HUGE difference between being stopped because you fit the bill so to speak and being stopped because you might fit the bill. I would have had no objection if I'd been pulled over because a redheaded female and a large black male had been seen committing a crime. I would have had no problem if a white Mazda Miata had been seen leaving the scene of a crime. I have a major problem with being pulled over simply because I was a redheaded female driving a white Mazda Miata with a large black male in the passenger. Sorry, that's just wrong.

As I said, the issue here isn't the racial profiling per se. The issue is that over 10% of America's population is in fact angry. They just don't speak of this anger in public very often. Obama did and I say good for him. It is time to open those doors, to share the stories why they are angry.

I also believe the other side of the story should be told -- why there is racial profiling, why there is genuine fear, etc. All sides should be listened to and respected. Maybe if there are enough open and honest discussions without name calling, without getting mired down in prejudices, without a lot of rhetoric but simply honest discussions of personal experiences some change might honestly take effect.

BTW -- Your comment that this my comments were based on hypothetical rhetoric is specious at its best. You have no idea what I have or have not experienced in the past. I have been the victim of violent crime -- once by a redheaded (carrot top, no less) male in his 30s and once by a black youth. I've witnessed my neighbor's home being broken into by two young black men. However, I have not demanded that every redheaded male be stopped to see if he was the one who attacked me. I did not go to the local high school and ask the police to pull every young man who was tall and slender out of class to see if one of them threw the dumbbell to enter my neighbor's home. I did not ask that any male who was a light-skinned African-American between 5'10" and 6' weighing approximately 180 lbs be stopped so I could see if he was the brat who mugged me. So, I'd say my sentiment would be that racial profiling stinks to the high heavens even if it were blue stickmen stealing babies, unless there was only one blue stickman in the entire world.

Redwitch, I profoundly and sincerely respect your position on the issue of profiling. I do take exception with certain points. Your dismissal of the stolen car issue as petty does not account for peripheral issues that emerge concurrent with the car theft problem. Pursuits, a closely related issue, have also become controversial. To qualify my position, I should tell you I was appointed by the Governor to an Attorney General's task force on pursuits that was charged with making recommendations to the Legislature.

We interviewed police officers, families of victims who had been killed in pursuits, crime victims advocacy groups (Tal, some people in government were actually paying attention to this constituency) and other related parties who held an interest in the problem.

It is hard to be brief, but I will try. Simply stated alarming facts that surfaced were the large number of ethnic victims and the significant number of deaths that were occurring by the reckless driving of car thieves NOT in pursuit situations. It is the latter that is omitted in your assessment trivializing the car theft problem.

A part of the problem became agencies that banned pursuits altogether. In Newark specifically, the Mayor banned all pursuits for a period of time. The unanticipated result were incredible increases in auto theft and other crimes using stolen cars. Finally, there was a number of tragic deaths on the streets of Newark by kids recklessly operating stolen vehicles. Several were stunning including one that involved a crash and death of a baby in carriage that was not pursuit related.

Our task force worked for almost a year. The net result was establishing a statewide conditional pursuit policy that spelled out in great detail when an officer could pursue, tactics he could and could not use and under what conditions he had to terminate the pursuit. The policy went to great lengths balancing the right of the public to be secure from irresponsible police pursuits and the need to let miscreants know they did not have a license to conduct criminal and reckless conduct in motor vehicles with immunity. Harsh penalties were also recommended for those who attempted to elude police. It is now mandatory for every police officer in New Jersey to receive pursuit policy training as well as hands on training behind the wheel. It is a requirement at every police academy and followup via in-service training. Based on New Jersey's success, other states have adopted similar policies.

I got more than a little long of wind as I also am long of tooth. Forgive me please. My point is there are more consequences to auto theft than the net effect on the victims.

Red, I'm not looking for a conversion just balance. I learn more from people who don't categorically share my views. Tal and Chelsea, thanks for responding.

Big treat today...breakfast with friends at Bob Evans.

Originally Posted by cabo35

Redwitch, I profoundly and sincerely respect your position on the issue of profiling. I do take exception with certain points. Your dismissal of the stolen car issue as petty does not account for peripheral issues that emerge concurrent with the car theft problem. Pursuits, a closely related issue, have also become a controversial. To qualify my position, I should tell you I was appointed by the Governor to an Attorney General's task force on pursuits that was charged with making recommendations to the Legislature.

We interviewed police officers, families of victims who had been killed in pursuits, crime victims advocacy groups (Tal, some people in government were actually paying attention to this constituency) and other related parties who held an interest in the problem.

It is hard to be brief, but I will try. Simply stated alarming facts that surfaced were the large number of ethnic victims and the significant number of deaths that were occurring by the reckless driving of car thieves NOT in pursuit situations. It is the latter that is omitted in your assessment trivializing the car theft problem.

A part of the problem became agencies that banned pursuits altogether. In Newark specifically, the Mayor banned all pursuits for a period of time. The unanticipated result were incredible increases in auto theft and other crimes using stolen cars. Finally, there was a number of tragic deaths on the streets of Newark by kids recklessly operating stolen vehicles. Several were stunning including one that involved a crash and death of a baby in carriage that was not pursuit related.

Our task force worked for almost a year. The net result was establishing a statewide conditional pursuit policy that spelled out in great detail when an officer could pursue, tactics he could and could not use and under what conditions he had to terminate the pursuit. The policy went to great lengths balancing the right of the public to be secure from irresponsible police pursuits and the need to let miscreants know they did not have a license to conduct criminal and reckless conduct in motor vehicles with immunity. Harsh penalties were also recommended for those who attempted to elude police. It is now mandatory for every police officer in New Jersey to receive pursuit policy training as well as hands on training behind the wheel. It is a requirement at every police academy and followup via in-service training. Based on New Jersey's success, other states have adopted similar policies.

I got more than a little long of wind as I also am long of tooth. Forgive me please. My point is there are more consequences to auto theft than the net effect on the victims.

Red, I'm not looking for a conversion just balance. I learn more from people who don't categorically share my views. Tal and Chelsea, thanks for responding.

Big treat today...breakfast with friends at Bob Evans.

During the 18 years of so I have bugged various agencies, politicians, librarians, lawyers and celebrities-- as well as CEOs of major companies-- to pay attention to the needs of various victims and the groups that represent them, I have found NJ agencies, Governors, and the like to be particularly responsive to my various communications.

Cabo35. Good to hear about the victims' groups role in your state's processing of these policies with respect to car theft.

Have not checked NJ libraries http://www.publiclibraries.com/newjersey.htm recently for what kind of resources they have for victims-- like a link to the NJ version of the FL Victim Services Directory http://www.state.nj.us/lps/nj_crisis....org/guide.htm -- but I will probably get around to doing that soon.

I do hope that whomever gets elected as US President in 2008 will do quite a bit more in this area of strengthening the victims' role than President George W. Bush has done in the eight years he has been in office.

Never any attempt to target my comments toward any one person's beliefs/background/etc.
Only my opinion about the SUBJECT at hand...using generalities (sometimes unsuccessfully!).
It is easy to tell when I am being personal, my commentary is preceded by the name toward which it is aimed!

Regarding profiling....I just don't grasp the concept espoused by too many these days, not just this forum and including family members, that if it is repetitive non WHITE it must be racial.

When Obama cited his Grandmother's fear of black males she in her own way for good reason or not was in fact profiling. We all do it every day in one way or another.

Profiling is profiling. It becomes racial when special interests become the subject....not the actual crime/event/profile.

My humble opinion and 2 cents worth.

BTK

I don't think I trivilialized car theft at all. I simply stated that I'd rather see 10 cars stolen than one innocent person stopped because he "might" steal a car based simply on his being a young black male. To not allow pursuits is just plain stupid. So is not training officers in how to conduct a pursuit. I'm not advocating not pulling someone over with reason (a teen driving a Ferrari would be suspicious no matter what the skin color), but let's not say it is okay because statistics say ........

Crime is not trivial -- whether it occurs to you, your neighbor, your family or a stranger down the street; whether it is petty theft, car theft, drug trafficking or murder -- all cost taxpayers money at the very least and loss of life at the highest level.

Being humiliated and made to feel powerless simply because of your race is not trivial, either. Being afraid to speak up when you're treated unfairly because of your race is not trivial. Being demeaned by strangers because they feel they have a right to do so simply because you are a person of color is not trivial.

America has come a long way from the days of slavery, from the Jim Crow laws, from the separate but equal garbage, from MLK's speeches and marches, but, baby, it has a long way to go! I'm still up in the air as to whom I want to see as president, but I certainly would love to hear Obama speak up a few more times on the issue of race, the anger on both sides, the resentments and fears. In between the rhetoric, the man can pack a potent message.

And have fun with your friends at Bob Evans. I hear they do a good breakfast and I'm sure the company will be wonderful!

Originally Posted by billethkid

Never any attempt to target my comments toward any one person's beliefs/background/etc.
Only my opinion about the SUBJECT at hand...using generalities (sometimes unsuccessfully!).
It is easy to tell when I am being personal, my commentary is preceded by the name toward which it is aimed!

Regarding profiling....I just don't grasp the concept espoused by too many these days, not just this forum and including family members, that if it is repetitive non WHITE it must be racial.

When Obama cited his Grandmother's fear of black males she in her own way for good reason or not was in fact profiling. We all do it every day in one way or another.

Profiling is profiling. It becomes racial when special interests become the subject....not the actual crime/event/profile.

My humble opinion and 2 cents worth.

BTK

Last week, we took a wrong turn while in Mt. Dora and ended up in a predominately African American neighborhood. I still have a little fear when I drive white in an area that has a very large number of African Americans.

This was a little different fear though than when I travelled to North Carolina Central University Law School to interview for a reference librarian position back in 1994. I had not known this was a primarily African American school when I applied for the position. I also discovered how many different shades people of color can have.