Originally Posted by dklassen

I have a simple question. Name one civilization in the history of the world that ever taxed itself into prosperity?

Here’s another. When has a poor person ever offered you a job? Great idea, let’s tax the job producers even more.

One of my favorite quotes from Walter Williams.

“My definition of social justice is you keep what you earn and I keep what I earn. Do you disagree? Then tell me how much of what I earn belongs to you and why?

I am certainly FAR from ever being rich and find myself about dead center in the “working middle class.” I figure when you add everything up, almost 50% what what I earn get’s taken from me in some form of tax. That’s just not right. Obama now wants to take even more.

It’s interesting because when the subject of tax cuts come up the Democrats always say the government simply can’t afford it right now. I don’t recall ever being asked by the Federal Government if I can afford it.

If Obama rolls back the Bush tax cut like he says he will, that alone will cost me $3000 a year.

btw, tax cuts don’t cause national debt, congress spending too much of our money does.

That is right, but notice how the debt rose the whole time bush was in office, so cant blame it on last 2. the debt never went down after bush took office. hope as you like. But that is just looking at the graph, unless the graph was tainted. always blame the last never the first.

I absolutely do blame Bush and the congress but you also have to take into account 9/11 and the current war on terror. Both are coming at a high $$ price. But you know what? That’s what the government should be spending our money on. What’s bleeding us dry are government giveaways, pork spending and all the social programs that transfer money from one person to another… while the government take their cut of course.

Trust me, I’m no fan of GW or JM but frankly Obama scares the crap out of me. The fact is, cutting taxes across the board increases government revenue. The problem is congress spends it all 10 fold on things they have no business spending it on.

Originally Posted by Boomer

Well, Cabo35,

Even though you put out a call in your thread for posters with financial expertise, you got me anyway. Actually, you got me with the title of the thread. I have had great concerns about this one, even before the obscenity of this economic mess came home to roost. I have no financial expertise but somehow, bumpkin though I may be, I saw this one coming. I have an interest in this stuff.

Taxes may be the issue that causes always moderate Republican me to tear up that “Dear John” letter I wrote when he made the VP choice. I cannot decide if I am going to have to forgive him or if, in light of all the mess, all bets are off anyway, and they will all tax us into oblivion, in one way or another.

I honestly do not know what I will do with my vote. I did figure out though why I have been forced to beat myself up so much over this one. A couple of weeks ago, I saw something discussing what has happened with gerrymandering over the years. The idea being that gerrymandering gone wild is what has led us to what is turning into extremist politics. And all that gerrymandering has also made it almost impossible to throw the bums out. But I digress.

So anyway, I just wanted to add here what I recently read as a boil down on the candidates’ tax proposals. The source is a little 16-page publication that I subscribe to.


From Kiplinger’s Retirement Report, October 2008, p. 15:

The Candidates’ Tax Proposals

The lead says, “This comparison, drawn from official documents, lays out the presidential candidates’ major ideas.”

McCain: Income Tax
Maintain current tax rates of 10% to 35%.

McCain: Capital Gains/Dividends:
Keep maximum at 15%.

McCain: New Tax Cuts
Immediately double the dependency exemption to $7,000 for married couples with incomes less that $50,000; gradually increase it for higher earners.

McCain: Estate Tax
Raise exclusion to $5 million per person; cut rate to 15%.

McCain: Social Security
No change in taxable wage base.


Obama: Income Tax
Boost top tax rate to 39.6% on joint income more than $250,000

Obama: Capital Gains/Dividends
Raise maximum to 20%, but only for investors with incomes more than $250,000

Obama: New Tax Cuts
$1,000 rebate to offset high energy costs; up to $1,000 credit to offset Social Security taxes for low wage earners; eliminate income tax for seniors making less than $50,000; double college credit to $4,000.

Obama: Estate Tax
Set exclusion at 3.5 million per person; keep rate at 45%

Obama: Social Security
Impose added tax on earnings exceeding $250,000


Well, at least that's what was supposedly going on when the issue went to press anyway. Who knows how it has changed, only to change again.

I am still watching this closely. And still thinking. . .far too much.

Boomer

If Obama gets in and eliminates income tax for "seniors" (needs to be defined) making under 50 K a year I'm gonna quit working, simplify, kick back and relax... life without income tax.

I tend to look at things from every angle I can think of before I make a decision. I play it out.

Lately, I have given a little more thought to that quarter of a mil number that is being waved around to oh, I don't know, perhaps they think it will comfort the masses in some way.

Well, in our so-not-rich family we have a young doctor just starting into practice. Her husband has a good job in business. My guess is they will get hit by this $250,000 thing.

Is that OK?

Let's factor in something else here.

They would have to take a tax hit on top of trying to pay off student loans that have a figure that can only be described as "out the wazoo." (Is that an accounting term?)

Will they ever get ahead -- or even catch up?

Will taxes drain incentive out of even our most motivated young people?

And what's with this new plan for another stimulus package? How's that last one been workin' out? Another vote-buying scam in the works so I hear, to be funded by the taxpayers. Ah yes, benevolence with other people's money.

And the choice of benevolence with our own money is quickly being eroded. Charitable donations are already drying up. Those places that provide free food are being tapped out. Will churches be able to keep paying the bills to keep their doors open?

How many kids will not be able to return to college next year because parents or grandparents can no longer generate income from investments to help pay tuition? And jobs so those kids can pay more of their own tuition????

You know, they could take a big chunk out of the debt by using Pay Per View to run public punishment of those responsible. But we all know that those who deserve to be punished will never be punished.

McCain lost me when he made the decision to pander to the far right. The party had no business assuming to put an issue like abortion out front when we are possibly approaching economic collapse and health care is indecipherable. I really did feel like I had been slapped right across my moderate Republican woman face. He lost me back then. The problem is, I am still lost.

Wow. I am starting to play this one out a little too far. I think I will go outside and play.

Boomer

Originally Posted by dklassen

I have a simple question. Name one civilization in the history of the world that ever taxed itself into prosperity?

Here’s another. When has a poor person ever offered you a job? Great idea, let’s tax the job producers even more.

One of my favorite quotes from Walter Williams.

“My definition of social justice is you keep what you earn and I keep what I earn. Do you disagree? Then tell me how much of what I earn belongs to you and why?

I am certainly FAR from ever being rich and find myself about dead center in the “working middle class.” I figure when you add everything up, almost 50% what what I earn get’s taken from me in some form of tax. That’s just not right. Obama now wants to take even more.

It’s interesting because when the subject of tax cuts come up the Democrats always say the government simply can’t afford it right now. I don’t recall ever being asked by the Federal Government if I can afford it.

If Obama rolls back the Bush tax cut like he says he will, that alone will cost me $3000 a year.

btw, tax cuts don’t cause national debt, congress spending too much of our money does.

Great post!

Originally Posted by rshoffer

Great post!

DK "I am certainly FAR from ever being rich and find myself about dead center in the “working middle class.” I figure when you add everything up, almost 50% what what I earn get’s taken from me in some form of tax. That’s just not right. Obama now wants to take even more"

Someone is going to pay for Bail Out, McCain can say all he wants about not rasing anything anywhere, tell me who is paying for it then, oh i know, let borrow it from China again.... From what i can tell on either candidates plan, one will raise the debt 3 trillion and the other one will raise it 6 trillion, that was the news the other night with Kaite Couric. Go figure..

Originally Posted by oshunluva

I believe we are going to find that this whole financial debacle was engineered by the Democrats, and some Republicans, to get Obama elected based on how much better they say he would be on the economy all of a sudden. After the election, hide and watch, everything will become much better and Obama will look like the hero for it.

Oh...My...God....

Originally Posted by dklassen

I absolutely do blame Bush and the congress but you also have to take into account 9/11 and the current war on terror. Both are coming at a high $$ price. But you know what? That’s what the government should be spending our money on. What’s bleeding us dry are government giveaways, pork spending and all the social programs that transfer money from one person to another… while the government take their cut of course.

Trust me, I’m no fan of GW or JM but frankly Obama scares the crap out of me. The fact is, cutting taxes across the board increases government revenue. The problem is congress spends it all 10 fold on things they have no business spending it on.

JUST A LITTLE INFO ON U.S. ELECTION

TO ALL MY FRIENDS.... Democrats and Republicans ...FYI only.

George Bush has been in office for 7-1/2 years.
The first six the economy was fine.

A little over one year ago:
1) Consumer confidence stood at a 2-1/2 year high;
2) Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon;
3) the unemployment rate was 4.5%;
4) the DOW JONES hit a record high--14,000+; > 5) American's were buying
new cars,taking cruises, vacations
overseas, living large!...

But American's wanted 'CHANGE'! So, in 2006 they voted in a Democratic
Congress and yes--we got 'CHANGE' all right. In the PAST YEAR:

1) Consumer confidence has plummeted;
2) Gasoline is now over $4 a gallon & climbing!;
3) Unemployment is up to 5.5% (a 10% increase);
4) Americans have seen their home equity drop by $12 TRILLION DOLLARS
and prices still dropping;
5) 1% of American homes are in foreclosure;
6) as I write, THE DOW is probing another low~~
$2.5 TRILLION DOLLARS HAS EVAPORATED FROM THEIR STOCKS, BONDS &
MUTUAL FUNDS INVESTMENT PORTFOLIOS!

YES, IN 2006 AMERICA VOTED FOR CHANGE...AND WE SURE GOT IT! ...

REMEMBER THE PRESIDENT HAS NO CONTROL OVER ANY OF THESE ISSUES, ONLY
CONGRESS.

AND WHAT HAS CONGRESS DONE IN THE LAST TWO YEARS? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

NOW THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT CLAIMS HE IS GOING TO REALLY
GIVE US CHANGE--ALONG WITH A DEMOCRATIC CONGRESS!!

JUST HOW MUCH MORE 'CHANGE' DO YOU THINK YOU CAN STAND?