Most jobs "created/saved" are teachers. First time ever there are more union public-sector employees(7.9 million) then union private sector (7.4 million)

http://biggovernment.com/vderugy/201...ting-teachers/

Originally Posted by Donna2

Most jobs "created/saved" are teachers...

Well, there's one group of teachers who aren't being saved. The Kansas City school board voted yesterday to close 26 schools in the city, almost half the current number. Thousands of employees and teachers will be terminated.

Here's an article from Kansas City.com...

http://www.kansascity.com/2010/03/10...-close-26.html

Having reported on the alarming school board decision, the article also says that enrollment in Kansas City schools has declined to the same level that it was in 1889, 120 years ago. I guess I'm left wondering whether maybe a giant program of school closures and layoffs in Kansas City wasn't long overdue. Still, the result is going to be a spike in the unemployment rate in KC.

Villages Kahuna, on the Kansas City schools closings, now here's the rest of the story...note it's a 1998 article:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html

Originally Posted by bkcunningham1

Villages Kahuna, on the Kansas City schools closings, now here's the rest of the story...note it's a 1998 article:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html

Thank-you for the eye-opener, BK. The whole education system needs an over-haul in my opinion. What a waste of taxpayer's money.

for bankruptcy? We have weathered many, many recessions without the school city budgets getting to the point they are today.
Having been in the "sick company" turn around business, I would love to see the actual to budget for the last 5 years and I would also like to see the current year budget vs last years actuals.
I would then like to see a new budget proposal using the zero base budget approach (if it was a line item last year doesn't mean it is again this year unless it can be JUSTIFIED).
Then I would like to see the cash flow for those same periods.

And I mean line item by line item, not categories.

Until such time as governments approach the money and spending like we have to do ours at home....there will continue to be this problem of out of control spending.

And when they cut where do they cut? Right where the services affect you and me and the kids first....this way the emotion hits we the people and more money can be had.

Politicians will never EVER do the above....would you like to bet how many in administration understand revenues vs expenses vs profit/loss vs balance sheets? My estimate would be less than 10% of any organization you wanna mention.

And unfortunately that is not going to change....EVER!

btk

Originally Posted by Donna2

The whole education system needs an over-haul in my opinion. What a waste of taxpayer's money.

I just can't decide whether it's better to just continue to ignore comments like these, or to mention what silly nonsense they are. The only waste here is the space they take up.

I'm not going to suggest that you try to say ANYTHING positive about any of our social institutions, because you don't seem to be able to do that. But since you're now bashing teachers and education, just what would you do since the "whole education system needs an over-haul"?

I'd like to hear your ideas, especially the one's that significantly improve education and don't cost anything.

Originally Posted by Donna2

Thank-you for the eye-opener, BK. The whole education system needs an over-haul in my opinion. What a waste of taxpayer's money.

You are correct. Start over without unions and pass only those who pass the exams.

Originally Posted by ijusluvit

I just can't decide whether it's better to just continue to ignore comments like these, or to mention what silly nonsense they are. The only waste here is the space they take up.

I'm not going to suggest that you try to say ANYTHING positive about any of our social institutions, because you don't seem to be able to do that. But since you're now bashing teachers and education, just what would you do since the "whole education system needs an over-haul"?

I'd like to hear your ideas, especially the one's that significantly improve education and don't cost anything.

1. Donna does not need me to defend her, but I do not think she was in any way bashing teachers or education as you say she was. I read that she felt the system needed an overhaul.

2, While you accuse her of never saying anything positive about any of our social institutions, I suggest that your oversight of the problems in anything touched by our federal government is alarming to say the least. You can defend big Government...that is your right....but putting your head in the sand and ignoring all the problems is naive.

I will just add that the education problems in this country, IN MY OPINION, are a direct reflection of the breakdown of the family unit. This breakdown is at the root of many of the social programs in this country and throwing money at it is not the answer. However, we have bred a generation of folks who equate everything to money.

PS....I might add that from personal experience, those choosing a teaching career which used to be filled with those who wanted to educate are now being filled in many cases (thankfully,not most) by those seeking MONEY because of the inroads of unions and the pressure applied to local school boards to settle contracts ! This is not to say we should underpay teachers....I am married to one who taught for over 30 years...but we might also look at the educational system that prepares our teachers.

Originally Posted by ijusluvit

I just can't decide whether it's better to just continue to ignore comments like these, or to mention what silly nonsense they are. The only waste here is the space they take up.

I'm not going to suggest that you try to say ANYTHING positive about any of our social institutions, because you don't seem to be able to do that. But since you're now bashing teachers and education, just what would you do since the "whole education system needs an over-haul"?

I'd like to hear your ideas, especially the one's that significantly improve education and don't cost anything.

Try this for starters: use basic economic principles of supply and demand when negotiating salaries.

Originally Posted by ijusluvit

I just can't decide whether it's better to just continue to ignore comments like these, or to mention what silly nonsense they are. The only waste here is the space they take up.

I'm not going to suggest that you try to say ANYTHING positive about any of our social institutions, because you don't seem to be able to do that. But since you're now bashing teachers and education, just what would you do since the "whole education system needs an over-haul"?

I'd like to hear your ideas, especially the one's that significantly improve education and don't cost anything.

My my, are we in the personal attack mode today Mr. ijusluvit?

First I would like to say that I have sister in laws and nieces who labor under the title of teacher. They began teaching with high ideals and within a few years were beaten down by the system.

Brief history: My involvement in politics has been almost nonexistent until the last couple of years. My circle of friends, until recently, have been non-political most of their lives, too. If you could have been at one of our social functions 30 years ago and listened to our conversations, you would probably describe us as "liberals."
When I hear my friends talk now, they sound like totally different people.(teachers included).
From what I gather, most of the problems are at the federal level. My teacher sister in law say that the Dept of Ed. is one big boondogle.
She supported the 1996 Republican platform of the abolition of the Dept of Education:

The Federal government has no constitutional authority to be involved in school curricula or to control jobs in the market place. This is why we will abolish the Department of Education, end federal meddling in our schools, and promote family choice at all levels of learning.

[2][3]

Today the budget is around 68.6 billion.
I have one question that I would like answered by anyone. Why do the parochial schools have a waiting list and why do they do a better job of educating with less money to work with? Has it got anything to do with federal laws? A terrible curriculum? Too many restrictions? Unable to discipline students etc, etc?

My sister in law says that after a few years in the system, their thoughts and motivations are more geared to themselves instead of the pupils.
They have tried throwing money at the system and it didn't work. It is said that if you keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect different results, that is a sign of mental illness.
I say the system is very sick.

Donna2, As a retired teaacher I couldn't agree more. Years ago "they" talked about getting rid of the Dept. Of Ed. As with all government programs it is almost impossible to do. The schools are 180 degrees different from when we went to school. For starters discipline needs to be re-established. In my day if I got in trouble at school I would be in more trouble when I got home. Now the parents are in the teacher's face if you look cross-eyed at little Johhny or Mary. Passing kids on to the next grade, even if they haven't mastered the skills required needs to stop. So many kids are gradulating and they can barely read or write. Unfortunately, I don't see any changes soon, The NEA is way to powerful.

The despair, frustration and the lack of hope I feel in Donna's post asking for sweeping change in the educational system makes me sit up and take notice. IMHO, that type of frustration; although justified and based on proven facts, sometimes leads to the wrong kind of change.

In her post Donna hinted at the ruination of our educational system by the ineptness of tenured teachers and the greed of unions. To criticize her, IMO, for the broad sweeping comment made out of frustration to get rid of all of the teachers and to start over is the pot calling the kettle black.

I don't think Donna deserved the comment. Donna, like me, you and tens of thousands in this country are frustrated. If our frustration is vented amongst our families, friends, coworkers and on forums like TOV and stops here it does serve a purpose. But it shouldn't stop there.

After we educate ourselves and are justifiable riled up, we have to express our opinions through our right to vote. Not just on the state and national level, but more importantly, on the local level. I can't give up on a world that my grandfather worked to build and my 90 year old father fought to give me and the lifestyle that I and my hardworking husband work to substain.

My grandfather, born in 1893, was raised on a farm in Virginia where the railroad had never even laid a track. His family, like most in that generation, were strong-willed, hardworking, and self-sufficient. He dreamed of being a school teacher. He managed to get educated and borrow a neighbor's horse to get to a railroad station to ride for days at the promise of a teaching job in the coalfield in the Common School system.

To quote Diane Ravitch, author of The Death and Life of the Great American School System: How Testing and Choice Are Undermining Education , "I have not changed my fundamental belief that all children should have a great education that includes not just basic skills, but history, literature, geography,, civics, the arts, science, foreign languages, and physical education. I have never changed my wish that all children should have well-educated teachers who love their subjects and are well prepared to teach them to their students. I have never changed my skepticism about fads, miracles, and silver bullets, which come and go with great frequency in U.S. education. I have never abandoned my respect for the men and women who teach children and do the daily work that others (including me) talk and write about."

We must go back to the days when our teachers were taught to teach our children.

Donna2, SallyJo etc.

You continue to make sweeping generalizations about which there are only minor elements of truth.

You and your friends and relatives who think education has turned "180 degrees" from the good old days do not speak for the educators I know or what I believe is the greater majority of those who really know schools.

My wife and I are each the eldest of seven children. Of those 14 kids and 13 spouses, Twenty, including my wife and I, spent their careers or are currently in education. Everything from teaching and administrating in rich suburbs, poor rural schools, parochial and inner city schools. Every single one of us is proud of our years working with kids and families. We discuss education all the time and often we recall how hard it is, to some degree because communities and parents don't always value education or care about what their kids are doing. But it was absolutely no worse at the start or end of our careers. We weren't stymied by the politics - local, state or national. We were limited by our own less than perfect training, stamina and the size of the challenge. We all agree there is nothing as satisfying as watching children grow and learn.

I can honestly say, that, in addition to my immediate relatives, of the hundreds of other educators I know, I cannot recall a single one who is as negative as those to whom you refer in your posts.

Can someone who is more articulate and conversant with this stimulus thing answer a simple question for me? According to the link provided, over 400,000 education jobs were created or saved by Obama's stimulus funding. How will it be funded next year?

Can anyone give an example of a stimulus incentive that will not require the continuous, increasing and perpetual infusion of equal or greater future tax dollars?

I would also like to know who the recipients of the education stimulus cash were and how they were selected.....or would that be connected.

Originally Posted by Sally Jo

Donna2, As a retired teaacher I couldn't agree more. Years ago "they" talked about getting rid of the Dept. Of Ed. As with all government programs it is almost impossible to do. The schools are 180 degrees different from when we went to school. For starters discipline needs to be re-established. In my day if I got in trouble at school I would be in more trouble when I got home. Now the parents are in the teacher's face if you look cross-eyed at little Johhny or Mary. Passing kids on to the next grade, even if they haven't mastered the skills required needs to stop. So many kids are gradulating and they can barely read or write. Unfortunately, I don't see any changes soon, The NEA is way to powerful.

I agree 100%. The fundamentals need to be restored. "Social promotions" instead of academic achievements need to stop. This backwards philosophy of massaging pupils ego's without any accomplishments must stop. The whole system needs a major work-over.

I can honestly say, that, in addition to my immediate relatives, of the hundreds of other educators I know, I cannot recall a single one who is as negative as those to whom you refer in your posts.
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To this statement, I say baloney. There is not one industry out there that doesn't have their malcontents and you say you never heard one?
Unbelievable!!!!