at least to me it is !!

"More Americans “Pro-Life” Than “Pro-Choice” for First Time"

"A new Gallup Poll, conducted May 7-10, finds 51% of Americans calling themselves "pro-life" on the issue of abortion and 42% "pro-choice." This is the first time a majority of U.S. adults have identified themselves as pro-life since Gallup began asking this question in 1995."

http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/Mo...irst-Time.aspx

Thousands of Americans, surprised by who they elected as president, decided to start paying attention.

Yoda

A member of the loyal opposition

Originally Posted by Yoda

Thousands of Americans, surprised by who they elected as president, decided to start paying attention.

Yoda

A member of the loyal opposition

MILLIONS might a better term and still a understatement...

A Huge majority still support allowing abortion under certain circumstances. The extreme right-to-life movement (no exceptions EVER- the Official position of the Catholic Church) still represents a veritable fringe of Americans.

I say, since the mother is the prime cause of an abortion, the right-to-life movement should be pushing for Murder 1 for the abortive mother. She; the one who "puts out" the contract on the kid. The doctor is only the hired gun.

Death to mothers! Death to mothers!

Or babies in this case.

Over a million a year, but why bother with them when they only inconvenience adults who forget how babies are made. It's easier just to kill them and go on about your business.

were willing to look past Obama's clearly stated pro choice position, including partial birth abortion. And so now they show up in a new poll that doesn't mean much (it did not affect the election!!!).

The election was not a landslde. Obama was elected by those who were voting against Bush, not FOR Obama.

Hypocracy has no limits. Partisanship is the only factor in the equation....add in a little let's get even with Bush and people do stupid things.

And let's not talk about all the apathetics who did not get off their to go vote.

We get what we deserve....we deserve better....but the apathetics won't help...and in the case of abortion...many new lives will go under the knife...what a pity....and please save the save the mom and what about rape lectures.

BTK

The Center for Disease Control maintains considerable data on abortions which have occurred in the USA since 1974. A synopsis of their data can be found at http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.Htm

The data curves are interesting, especially as you view the later years. While one can see the curve on abortions for <15 and 15-19 year age groups flattening since 1989, one must factor in that there are also millions fewer in the <15 and 15-19 year age populations since 1989 because of previous years abortions.

In actuality, if 80% of those aborted since 1974 had lived, there would be approximately 18 million more persons in this country between 18-35 years old. If 2/3rd of that 18 million were in the workforce, that would be 12 million more workers contributing into the Social Security Trust Fund, and their contributions would be (even with minimum wage jobs) over half-a-trillion dollars. How that extra money would affect SSA solvency is immense.

And to add more irony, the number of illegal aliens in the USA is estimated at close to 20 million, and roughly 2/3rd of them are workers (they have stay-at-home spouses and kids, too). Their numbers have grown significantly since 1990. So, we have roughly 13.5 million illegal alien workers here now, at the same time we've reduced the population of potential US workers 18-35 years old by approximately 12 million.

So, it was not a matter of jobs that Americans wouldn't do - it's that we didn't have the US workers in the appropriate age category to do the jobs.

That's a prime example of the "law of unintended consequences." When you fiddle legislatively with one part of the social environment, there are ripple effects into other parts of the social environment It's a pity that the zealots for any position don't think beyond their own cause and to the potential "unintended" effects of their cause. But, life is simpler when we wear blinders.

steve comes up with the most insightful slants to many of our complex social isssues....good job!

Originally Posted by SteveZ

The Center for Disease Control maintains considerable data on abortions which have occurred in the USA since 1974. A synopsis of their data can be found at http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.Htm

The data curves are interesting, especially as you view the later years. While one can see the curve on abortions for <15 and 15-19 year age groups flattening since 1989, one must factor in that there are also millions fewer in the <15 and 15-19 year age populations since 1989 because of previous years abortions.

In actuality, if 80% of those aborted since 1974 had lived, there would be approximately 18 million more persons in this country between 18-35 years old. If 2/3rd of that 18 million were in the workforce, that would be 12 million more workers contributing into the Social Security Trust Fund, and their contributions would be (even with minimum wage jobs) over half-a-trillion dollars. How that extra money would affect SSA solvency is immense.

And to add more irony, the number of illegal aliens in the USA is estimated at close to 20 million, and roughly 2/3rd of them are workers (they have stay-at-home spouses and kids, too). Their numbers have grown significantly since 1990. So, we have roughly 13.5 million illegal alien workers here now, at the same time we've reduced the population of potential US workers 18-35 years old by approximately 12 million.

So, it was not a matter of jobs that Americans wouldn't do - it's that we didn't have the US workers in the appropriate age category to do the jobs.

That's a prime example of the "law of unintended consequences." When you fiddle legislatively with one part of the social environment, there are ripple effects into other parts of the social environment It's a pity that the zealots for any position don't think beyond their own cause and to the potential "unintended" effects of their cause. But, life is simpler when we wear blinders.

So we should outlaw abortion so these otherwise unborn children can do minimum wage jobs and fund our retirement.

Of course,

Probably the major reason for the poll changing is the definition and how they asked the question. People support abortion when it is rape or incest and if asked the question it would be much higher support. When asked if you support an abortion where the child is born then left alone to die, (Obama definition) then the answer would support pro life.

As an example I would support it for case one and not for case two. So then you get into the argument of when does a fetus become a life. I can't answer that question so it's a difficult position. However it is an issue where I could design a poll question to support either position.

from our arm chairs with no personal involvement or emotional attachment it is so easy to intellectualize either yes or no depending on the circumstances.

I can't recall the number of times I have asked pro lifers if they really knew for example just what partial birth abortion was. Most were shocked to discover the process is allowing the head to be birthed and then creating an opening in the skull and vacuuming the brain out. They did not know that was what it meant....yet they had a position on it. And that is what is very concerning in this day and age where folks get all emotional based on party lines (sheeple...non thinkers) or lean in the direction the media outlines for them (sheeple with honors!!).

The premise is....do you believe in taking a human life.....yes or no?
No shades of gray...many might think other wise if there was ever a consideration for weeding out the too old or the too sick. Why is that a stretch for the imagination? The taking of a life is the taking of a life no matter how it is served up.

BTK

Originally Posted by billethkid

from our arm chairs with no personal involvement or emotional attachment it is so easy to intellectualize either yes or no depending on the circumstances.

I can't recall the number of times I have asked pro lifers if they really knew for example just what partial birth abortion was. Most were shocked to discover the process is allowing the head to be birthed and then creating an opening in the skull and vacuuming the brain out. They did not know that was what it meant....yet they had a position on it. And that is what is very concerning in this day and age where folks get all emotional based on party lines (sheeple...non thinkers) or lean in the direction the media outlines for them (sheeple with honors!!).

The premise is....do you believe in taking a human life.....yes or no?
No shades of gray...many might think other wise if there was ever a consideration for weeding out the too old or the too sick. Why is that a stretch for the imagination? The taking of a life is the taking of a life no matter how it is served up.

BTK

I am not a very good debater on this issue because my views are rather strident and "not up to date".

To me abortion is simply another step we took to justify our need to be able to do whatever we wanted when we wanted and how we wanted. We never seem to attack the problems of society, just find a way to make it easy for us.

I realize I am saying it more black and white that I should but that is my basic belief; I DO know that times change but I dont think that right and wrong or morals change...we simply make them change to fit our spoiled needs !

What is divorced from the abortion debate is the recognition that our societies depend on a defined pyramid to survive. - that pyramid being "old" on top and "young" on the bottom. The top is proportionally smaller than the bottom due to natural mortality.

When we fiddle with the structure of the pyramid, the society itself is jeopardized. In America and most Western nations there is concern of the "graying" of society, because there are fewer in the center bands of the pyramid to fill in for the older workers vacating the work force. That is what's skewing the Social Security tables.

Why are there fewer workers in the pyramid's center bands? We disposed of them before they could become viable societal members. And we are paying the price. All the "it's my right" rhetoric in the world doesn't change the fact that the societal pyramid has been altered even worse than what the Nazis with the Holocast tried to do.

We now have almost a couple dozen-million illegal aliens in the nation, and their numbers actually have become a human plastering of the holes and gaps made into the American societal pyramid. These illegal aliens are predominantly in the 16-35 year old range. Unfortunately, most of what they earn is not income-taxed, nor do they contribute to SSA. There is a national debate on what to do with them (amnesty, path to citizenship, deport, other). Well, if abortion-on-demand remains the national policy, I see no choice but to amnesty every single illegal alien and give them lawful work cards, because without them our societal pyramid will deteriorate worse than it has already. We just flat-out need the human beings in the 18-35 year-old worker band to survive economically. And if we are going to kill off the home-grown at the rate of a million a year, we need to replace them from somewhere to keep our society in place, be in our military, and all the other things 18-35 year-olds do within a vibrant society.

Or we will just evaporate away.....

This is a complex issue.

I have never had an abortion, never counseled anyone to have one and don't know anyone that has. For me I can't see myself have an abortion. But then again I haven't been raped or sexual abused.

This would make me pro-life.

But if there are not exceptions for rape, incest, sexual abuse or the health of the mother.

Then I am pro-choice.

the statistics for what percentage of abortions in this country are actually for rape, incest, sexual abuse or life of the mother? i suspect it would be a very small number in contrast to those of convenience. but i may be wrong, if anyone has data to educate us......