djplong - What your grandmother experienced was a tragedy just as what happened to Buggyone's sister-in-law's father was clearly abuse. You continue to rail against private insurance companies, but both of the procedures were authorized by Medicare not private insurers. We need to ask if private insurers would have authorized these expenditures or vetoed them until proof of need was established? Medicare does not care. After all, the government is picking up the bill

You ask why medical care is more expensive in the United States than other countries. Let me use Canada as an example. The United States has 25.9 MRI machines per 1,000,000 people. Canada has 6.7. The figures for CT machines is 34.3 vs 2.7. Canada spends less on these tests simply because they cannot deliver the level of service provided in the US. The easiest way to reduce medical costs is to not provide them. I do not disagree that we need to reduce medical costs as a percentage of GDP and must attack the problem. We need to look at all the causes of medical cost inflation. It is worth noting that the explosion in US medical costs started in the 60's when Medicare came into existence.

Originally Posted by BBQMan

djplong - What your grandmother experienced was a tragedy .... You continue to rail against private insurance companies, but both of the procedures were authorized by Medicare, not private insurers. We need to ask if private insurers would have authorized these expenditures or vetoed them until proof of need was established? Medicare does not care. After all, the government is picking up the bill

You ask why medical care is more expensive in the United States than other countries. Let me use Canada as an example. The United States has 25.9 MRI machines per 1,000,000 people. Canada has 6.7. The figures for CT machines is 34.3 vs 2.7. Canada spends less on these tests simply because they cannot deliver the level of service provided in the US. The easiest way to reduce medical costs is to not provide them. I do not disagree that we need to reduce medical costs as a percentage of GDP and must attack the problem. We need to look at all the causes of medical cost inflation. It is worth noting that the explosion in US medical costs started in the 60's when Medicare came into existence.

The statements I highlighted above in the quote are so telling in all of this mess.

I would add to the last sentence: "and when the patient stopped getting the check for the insurance claim, and it started going directly to the provider/doctor. When patients do not pay the dr. themselves, they have no incentive to look at the costs, nor to question overbillings, nor to look elsewhere for a better price from another provider."

As for djplong's grandmother's horrendous "care", medical care itself depends so much on the individual physician. There are quacks in every area of the country and there are quacks in every profession. Healthcare overall in the U.S. should not be characterized by a quack like that guy. There are also crappy hospitals here and there, but overall, most are not like that one.

I hate to see the excellent doctors and hospitals we've had be characterized and lumped in with charlatans like that.

As for the apparent malpractice done to Grandma, I would much prefer to have the ability to sue for malpractice than to have a single-payer government healthcare system for all, in which there is no ability to sue for malpractice. Does anyone really think the government would provide malpractice insurance for its doctors and other providers? I don't think so.

BBQMAN~ I have presented this data numerous times since I have been on this forum. Good luck being heard!


djplong~ Late 1980's, late 1970's...whatever. I don't believe there was no signature even back that far. Someone had to give consent. I've been in the business since 1972 and some rules have been around for years. You just can't do medical procedures without consent.
DNR's didn't even get past the Supreme Court until the early 90's though, so you might want to check your timeline of events.
AS far as DRG's go, your experience in the healthcare industry should tell you that once those were in place (1983ish), if anything, the goals became get the patient out as fast as possible. DRG's dictate that there will only be one payment for the entire stay. No longer did doc's get whatever else they thought they could just to milk the patient, insurance co, medicare while they had a captive audience.

Originally Posted by ilovetv

The statements I highlighted above in the quote are so telling in all of this mess.

I would add to the last sentence: "and when the patient stopped getting the check for the insurance claim, and it started going directly to the provider/doctor. When patients do not pay the dr. themselves, they have no incentive to look at the costs, nor to question overbillings, nor to look elsewhere for a better price from another provider."

As for djplong's grandmother's horrendous "care", medical care itself depends so much on the individual physician. There are quacks in every area of the country and there are quacks in every profession. Healthcare overall in the U.S. should not be characterized by a quack like that guy. There are also crappy hospitals here and there, but overall, most are not like that one.

I hate to see the excellent doctors and hospitals we've had be characterized and lumped in with charlatans like that.

As for the apparent malpractice done to Grandma, I would much prefer to have the ability to sue for malpractice than to have a single-payer government healthcare system for all, in which there is no ability to sue for malpractice. Does anyone really think the government would provide malpractice insurance for its doctors and other providers? I don't think so.

Excellent points!
Medicare has come on the scene and controlled the price/reimbursements. Historically Medicare reimbursement has continued to drop, drop, drop, while technology and increase in life saving technology has continued to grow, grow, grow! IE...you can't buy a BMW for the price of a YUGO!

BBQMan: I'd agree with your points on our care being 'better' because we have triple the number of MRI/CAT/etc machines per capita if it actually produced results. I used to be in thatcamp.

Now, every study I see shows that the Medical Emperor has no clothes. We keep throwing more and more money at health care without caring where it goes. I worked for Beth Israel Hospital back during the events I described. We had whole floors of the hospital empty. Even though we didn't staff them, we still had to maintain them.

And with your example of CAT scan machines, all I can say is that, in the 1990s, when I had to go to the hospital in Montreal in the middle of the night, they wanted to send me for a CAT scan. How long would I have had to wait? Only until the tech got in at 9am. I had to refuse because my kids were alone in a hotel room and I *HAD* to get back once the pain was dealt with.

Katz: Yes, I know, there SHOULD have been a paper trail. We never saw the consent form, nobody would tell us who signed it and, to tell you the truth, we were scared of what the ramifications or consequences would be if we fought the case while my grandmother was still alive.

Originally Posted by djplong

BBQMan: I'd agree with your points on our care being 'better' because we have triple the number of MRI/CAT/etc machines per capita if it actually produced results. I used to be in thatcamp.

Now, every study I see shows that the Medical Emperor has no clothes. We keep throwing more and more money at health care without caring where it goes. I worked for Beth Israel Hospital back during the events I described. We had whole floors of the hospital empty. Even though we didn't staff them, we still had to maintain them.

And with your example of CAT scan machines, all I can say is that, in the 1990s, when I had to go to the hospital in Montreal in the middle of the night, they wanted to send me for a CAT scan. How long would I have had to wait? Only until the tech got in at 9am. I had to refuse because my kids were alone in a hotel room and I *HAD* to get back once the pain was dealt with.

Katz: Yes, I know, there SHOULD have been a paper trail. We never saw the consent form, nobody would tell us who signed it and, to tell you the truth, we were scared of what the ramifications or consequences would be if we fought the case while my grandmother was still alive.

With all due respect...you don't know what you are talking about! Our healthcare system and advanced technology availability is producing PHENOMENAL RESULTS!

I am not sure who you mean by WE are throwing more and more money...It certainly isn't Medicare. And to say without caring where it goes...Our healthcare system is "hamstringed" by ridiculous regulations and required paperwork.

I repeat...you don't know what you are talking about. And frankly, I am tremendously offended by your accusations. I belong to a network of healthcare workers in NW Ohio, friends, colleagues, professional acquaintances. All of whom are deeply dedicated and caring professionals who have gone above and beyond on a daily basis for the lives of their patients and the patients families. You need not judge my profession until you have walked a mile in our scrubs and sterile environments, held pressure on an artery for an hour, performed an emergency procedure in the middle of the night on Christmas, moved mountains to beat the clock to prevent permanent damage to a stroke patient, lived a life with the motto to "first do no harm"! Felt your heart break when you have done all known to man and within your power, only to lose an innocent victim of a needless and horrific auto accident. Give me a break. Don't pervert the selfless work of healthcare workers and the incredible miracles that they perform on a daily basis.

Katz: Allow me to clarify my remarks.

When I said 'producing results' I did not intend to disparage the work that IS being done by the legions of dedicated health care workers. For the most part, I've had very good experiences.

I should have explained that I find it frustrating that we pay so much more and do NOT have the kinds of results we SHOULD have when compared to the rest of the industrialized world.

As an example, we should NOT be tied for 55th, with *Cuba* in life expectancy when we're paying more than twice as much per capita as ANY other nation (source: CIA World Fact Book)

Life expectancy? How is that dependent on the cost of our healthcare system?
Do a little research on the American Diet and its affect on the human body and disease processes. While you are at it, look at who does research and sets the medical parameters for certain medications (hint-BIG PHARMA). That is just the tip of the iceberg. I'd be happy to give you a few links, but they may or may not pass your filter for biases. OK, I can't resist...check out the work of Linus Pauling in regards to preventing heart disease.

Originally Posted by KatzPajamas

With all due respect...you don't know what you are talking about! Our healthcare system and advanced technology availability is producing PHENOMENAL RESULTS!

I am not sure who you mean by WE are throwing more and more money...It certainly isn't Medicare. And to say without caring where it goes...Our healthcare system is "hamstringed" by ridiculous regulations and required paperwork.

I repeat...you don't know what you are talking about. And frankly, I am tremendously offended by your accusations. I belong to a network of healthcare workers in NW Ohio, friends, colleagues, professional acquaintances. All of whom are deeply dedicated and caring professionals who have gone above and beyond on a daily basis for the lives of their patients and the patients families. You need not judge my profession until you have walked a mile in our scrubs and sterile environments, held pressure on an artery for an hour, performed an emergency procedure in the middle of the night on Christmas, moved mountains to beat the clock to prevent permanent damage to a stroke patient, lived a life with the motto to "first do no harm"! Felt your heart break when you have done all known to man and within your power, only to lose an innocent victim of a needless and horrific auto accident. Give me a break. Don't pervert the selfless work of healthcare workers and the incredible miracles that they perform on a daily basis.

katz: I can attest to the dedication of you caring angels who too often are not thanked for the selfishless service. You are truly angels of mercy

Originally Posted by KatzPajamas

Life expectancy? How is that dependent on the cost of our healthcare system?
Do a little research on the American Diet and its affect on the human body and disease processes. While you are at it, look at who does research and sets the medical parameters for certain medications (hint-BIG PHARMA). That is just the tip of the iceberg. I'd be happy to give you a few links, but they may or may not pass your filter for biases. OK, I can't resist...check out the work of Linus Pauling in regards to preventing heart disease.

Oh I certainly agree with some of the points you make. I suspect that we agree more than you might think (a sentiment I also shared with RichieLion).

But I'll explain the example I gave.

When you pay more for something, you expect more (and better). If you pay for a Lexus, you don't expect a Chevy Metro.

What is the purpose of health care? Among other things, it's to help us live longer, healthier, happier lives.

It doesn't really bother me that we pay more than other countries. I can accept that. What DOES bother me is that we pay MORE THAN TWICE of what the #2 country pays - and we don't get better care. Ten times as many people go to foreign countries for treatment than come here. That, in and of itself, should tell you something is wrong.

Every single metric I can find has us trailing the pack. Sometimes there ARE some mitigating factors (especially when it comes to birth statistics - we try harder to save preemies and the mortality rate there is high - so our infant mortality rates tend to skew higher - but other countries might not count that as a 'live birth'). But I'm tired, for example, of seeing every other country get bargains on medications that we don't get. If Pfizer can sell something to Canada or Germany at a profit for less than half what they charge us, there's something wrong.

The government used to have a rule in procurement that any vendor was required BY LAW to match any 'best price' when selling to the government. IN other words, you couldn't sell your product or service to the government at a higher price than you sold it to others. You didn't have to match some OTHER vendor's price, just your own.

Apparently that doesn't apply to things like Medicare.