Originally Posted by Ajack

How do you know? Did you read the bill? When you ration operations and treatment, you essentially have long delays which result in premature deaths. Call it what you please, but "death panels" fit the description.

You are comparing apples to oranges.... and in fact I did read the verbiage about what were being called death panels. I fully believe in end of life planning mainly because I have worked in hospitals for all of my adult life. Things that happen there I don't want happening to me. So when I go for surgery tomorrow, and I am having surgery tomorrow, I will be carrying my living will, advance directives etc. with me. But at this hospital they are already on file but why leave anything to chance.

This paragraph was about paying for a meeting to organize this information....

Originally Posted by Yoda

when you say that there are no death panels you should have said there are no death panels in the medical bill. The death panels may have been hidden someplace else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HnkxIh62dQ

See how liberals and progressives work. Be Proud.

Cologal, is this what you support?

Yoda

Yoda.... I have answered the question about the section on death panels...you can read it below. This is completely another issue. As the speaker used the President middle name I can already tell his political bent. But I will answer in spite of that.

To let you know these types of things already exist in the current health insurance. For example, last Dec I began taking Protonics a very good ulcer drug. But in Jan I went to get a refill and was denied because the coverage had changed. My insurer wanted me to take a cheaper drug that didn't work and made me sick...so after dealing with that I thought they would switch me back...alas no. I had to try a different drug which was not very effective. It was not until late May until I was finally able to get the drugs that worked.

Now for my personal beliefs on these things.... As a Catholic I was taught that quality of a persons life matters deeply. Therefore doing procedures just to extend life may not be the best thing. I watched as my family had both a medical person and a member of the clergy present to help decide what should be done. (We had plenty of both in the family) As my mother's condition got worse it fell to me to make these decisions. The doctors wanted to put her on life support but I knew if she was put on life support she may never get off. I checked with a doctor in the family and we did not put her on the vent. She survived without it but died several months later....We never put her back in the hospital.

Sometimes these effectiveness panels rule out treatments that don't really work, sometimes they reign in doctors.

I am sorry that all of this is scary to you....

Originally Posted by cologal

Yoda.... I have answered the question about the section on death panels...you can read it below. This is completely another issue. As the speaker used the President middle name I can already tell his political bent. But I will answer in spite of that.

To let you know these types of things already exist in the current health insurance. For example, last Dec I began taking Protonics a very good ulcer drug. But in Jan I went to get a refill and was denied because the coverage had changed. My insurer wanted me to take a cheaper drug that didn't work and made me sick...so after dealing with that I thought they would switch me back...alas no. I had to try a different drug which was not very effective. It was not until late May until I was finally able to get the drugs that worked.

Now for my personal beliefs on these things.... As a Catholic I was taught that quality of a persons life matters deeply. Therefore doing procedures just to extend life may not be the best thing. I watched as my family had both a medical person and a member of the clergy present to help decide what should be done. (We had plenty of both in the family) As my mother's condition got worse it fell to me to make these decisions. The doctors wanted to put her on life support but I knew if she was put on life support she may never get off. I checked with a doctor in the family and we did not put her on the vent. She survived without it but died several months later....We never put her back in the hospital.

Sometimes these effectiveness panels rule out treatments that don't really work, sometimes they reign in doctors.

I am sorry that all of this is scary to you....

1, Will you please explain where any cost cutting is or was involved in the new health bill as I asked you before ?

2. Will you acknowledge that you quoted a man out of context (I already put it in context with the EXACT quote and meaning as reported by a left wing website) to make a point and then ignored it when you were called on it ?

3. Will you acknowledge that the current health bill is NOW causing escalation of health care costs ?

4. Will you acknowledge that there was NO attempt at what you call compromise when the President was offering deals to get votes ?

These are hard words, and I do apologize for that, but you continually come on here and say things and when you are called on them as NOT TRUE, you just ignore it as if it did not happen ! If you want to have a discussion and disagree, that is fine but you just cannot say things and then when called on your misrepresentation just ignore it and go off on a tangent !

The American people didn't just body slam the Democrates because they wan't compramise. The election was a restraining order and a total repudaition of the the Democratic adjenda.

There should be no comprise. If it's bad it's bad. Don't just make it less bad. Kill it before it grows.

The American people want the Bush tax cuts extented. Period. It's the right thing to do. No compramise. The American people want Obama Care repealed. Kill it, no compramise.

The American people want Cap-n-tax killed once and for all. No compramise.

The American people want smaller, less spending and less intrusive government. No compramise.

If the Republicans have the backbone to stand their ground, do the will of the people and Obama stands in their way, the same thing will happen again in 2012.

Originally Posted by Bucco

1, Will you please explain where any cost cutting is or was involved in the new health bill as I asked you before ?

2. Will you acknowledge that you quoted a man out of context (I already put it in context with the EXACT quote and meaning as reported by a left wing website) to make a point and then ignored it when you were called on it ?

3. Will you acknowledge that the current health bill is NOW causing escalation of health care costs ?

4. Will you acknowledge that there was NO attempt at what you call compromise when the President was offering deals to get votes ?

These are hard words, and I do apologize for that, but you continually come on here and say things and when you are called on them as NOT TRUE, you just ignore it as if it did not happen ! If you want to have a discussion and disagree, that is fine but you just cannot say things and then when called on your misrepresentation just ignore it and go off on a tangent !

Bucco....

1. According to the CBO there are a cost savings I would have to refer you to them.

2. I will acknowledge not that I quoted the man out of context because that is what he said. I will acknowledge that I did not submit a link to the entire text because it was from the Huffington Post and usually those links are dismissed.

3. I can't knowledge that because the program is not yet implemented. My personal insurance costs did not raise any higher than the normal year to year.

4. Yes there were back room deals but you can't deny that the Dems took out the public option in response to Olympia Snowe's request and then she did not vote for the bill. That is what ****ed off the progressives so much.

From the CBO

http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/health.cfm

On March 20, 2010, CBO released its final cost estimate for the reconciliation act, which encompassed the effects of both pieces of legislation. Table 1 (on page 5) provides a broad summary and Table 2 offers a detailed breakdown of the budgetary effects of the two pieces of legislation. CBO and the staff of the Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) estimate that enacting both pieces of legislation will produce a net reduction in federal deficits of $143 billion over the 2010-2019 period. About $124 billion of that savings stems from provisions dealing with health care and federal revenues; the other $19 billion results from the education provisions. Those figures do not include potential costs that would be funded through future appropriations (those are discussed on pages 10-11 of the cost estimate).

However, I would fully expect these numbers to be revised AGAIN when we start learning the results of the 'law of unintended consequences'.

Originally Posted by djplong

From the CBO

http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/health.cfm



However, I would fully expect these numbers to be revised AGAIN when we start learning the results of the 'law of unintended consequences'.

I certainly have read the CBO report, both the first one and the many changes that have followed and am struck by all the POSSIBLE's and MAYBE's and the deferrment of savings for years !

But,as I have said before, this bill DOES NOTHING FOR HEALTH COSTS which is what this President loud and clear touted as what he would do....health costs are now rising across the board.

But,as I have said before, this bill DOES NOTHING FOR HEALTH COSTS which is what this President loud and clear touted as what he would do....health costs are now rising across the board.

As he stated it would bend the cost curve down. Yet another lie to dupe the blind followers. As most of us still in the work force know, the cost curve is bending up dramatically.

Next year for me? Reduced benefits at a much higher cost. Obama care was designed to do two things. Drive private insurers out of business and force everyone on to a single payer government controlled system.

How many times does it have to be said? This bill is pure evil and so are those who crafted it.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HnkxIh62dQ[/ame]

Originally Posted by dklassen

As he stated it would bend the cost curve down. Yet another lie to dupe the blind followers. As most of us still in the work force know, the cost curve is bending up dramatically.

Next year for me? Reduced benefits at a much higher cost. Obama care was designed to do two things. Drive private insurers out of business and force everyone on to a single payer government controlled system.

How many times does it have to be said? This bill is pure evil and so are those who crafted it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HnkxIh62dQ

i'm convinced that it was the health insurance industry that crafted it - they are the ones who are increasing the costs while congressmen stand around saying 'i didn't know that'!

Originally Posted by njbchbum

i'm convinced that it was the health insurance industry that crafted it - they are the ones who are increasing the costs while congressmen stand around saying 'i didn't know that'!

Dont listen to what he says...watch what he is doing !!!

Then, this morning on the Morning Joe show on MSNBC, I hear them talking about the Democratic senators who are saying privately how this WH is doing nothing, nor has done anything to promote any bi partisanship relationships with the Republicans which is pretty apparent although they cant say this publicly of course.

This WH is the single most arrogant, party minded, political WH I have ever seen. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, he does with his staff as a result of the election. This is one of the very few WH's ever to not have anyone outside his "inner circle" on staff. I heard Dem Dee Dee Meyers of the Clinton press, and a Dem strategist saying that she hoped that he would step outside that circle for the next two years !