TSA can "patdown" anywhere in airport; not just at security checkpoint.

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  #16  
Old 03-28-2011, 05:21 PM
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What does a union have to do with the CURRENT problems at TSA?
  #17  
Old 03-28-2011, 05:50 PM
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File a compalint against a TSA union member when they come on board and you will see that the current problems don't seem as bad.
  #18  
Old 03-28-2011, 05:54 PM
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Not that this has anything to do with this thread - Rubicon - but have you ever been a union member?

I know RichieLion was a member of the Teamster's union. Teamsters were very powerful in getting lots of concessions for their employees in terms of pay and hours and working conditions. They also were a mighty corrupt union. I worked across the street in Washington DC from AFL-CIO headquarters and also from United Mine Workers. United Auto Workers were also very powerful. Wages were really boosted for employees under all those unions.

I was in management so I never could be a union member.
  #19  
Old 03-28-2011, 06:21 PM
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Tbug, married while in the service so had to work and complete college at night. Home state had close shop laws forced me to join two unions, Steelworkers and Teamsters. My Dad had a respectable position with the Teamsters, We had opposing points of views about unions. Upon completion of college entered corporate world and spend many years in management both operations and Human Resources. As a general comment I understand the benefit of management v unions to maintain balance but working such programs as Job Classification, Merit Salary and Performance Evaluation Programs et al you develop a totally different perspective not to forget the Employment law issues. I could go on and on but you obviously been there and done that. So essentially I was reared in a blue collar family.
  #20  
Old 03-28-2011, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbugs View Post
Not that this has anything to do with this thread - Rubicon - but have you ever been a union member?

I know RichieLion was a member of the Teamster's union. Teamsters were very powerful in getting lots of concessions for their employees in terms of pay and hours and working conditions. They also were a mighty corrupt union. I worked across the street in Washington DC from AFL-CIO headquarters and also from United Mine Workers. United Auto Workers were also very powerful. Wages were really boosted for employees under all those unions.

I was in management so I never could be a union member.
I was a Teamster and proud of it. Unions did more to enrich and grow the middle class than any other entity in this nation. Almost all the benefits expected from an employer had their origins with the unions; from the 40 hour work week, to the 2 week vacation to overtime pay, to a safe work environment. Was there corruption? There is in any large organization particularly the largest organization of them all, the federal government.

But I've always separated the public unions with the private unions. In public union contracts negotiations the employer is not at the table to negotiate the contract. That employer is the taxpayer. At the table with the public union to negotiate their contract are politicians who are negotiating a contract with the very people who finance their political careers. Unbelievable.

Private unions, as I belonged to, have to negotiate their contract with their actual employer. At the company I worked for the workers agreed to a 15% wage giveback and exempted the company from paying into the pension plan for 2 years in order to give the company a chance to rebuild and stay in business because of the downfalls it experienced in this new devolving economy. This is totally a foreign concept to the public unions who demand more and more no matter how the economy has changed.
  #21  
Old 03-29-2011, 05:33 PM
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Default Tas.............

richielion that's pretty much what my Dad believed and essentially that is the history of unions and their contribution to the rise of the middle class; although Henry Ford is given credit for its rise since he raised workers wages so they could buy his cars.
  #22  
Old 03-30-2011, 06:50 AM
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One fundamental difference with the position unions are in is the fact that many of what unions fought for in the 'classic era' [weekends, 8-hour days, child labor prohibitions, holidays, equal opportunity] are now LAW. Agencies like the EEOC and OSHA are now in charge of the kinds of things that unions fought for decades ago. So unions are now looking for another "raison d'etre" and it's difficult to do.
  #23  
Old 03-30-2011, 05:32 PM
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djplong, "raison d'etre is precisely the point.
  #24  
Old 03-30-2011, 07:34 PM
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When I saw some of the posts in this thread I was very dishearten. I travel for business very regularly, sometimes even weekly. This trip is Philly, Cleveland and Indy then back to Orlando. I have a couple of questions for some of you who posted....

Tbugs....you posted this:

I recently went on a trip to and from Orlando to Costa Rica. Only screening at both airports were just the normal x-ray of carry-on bags and walking through the magnetic door. No body scanning or pat-downs.

So you just walked through the metal detector without any alarms, correct? Then that means you are an able bodied person. You don't have an artificial hip, knee, leg nor any metal rods in your limbs or back. You don't have a artificial bladder nor an artificial breast. Because if you did you would NOT have just walked through the metal detector. You could have been selected for the scanner or that very personal pat-down.


Now Richie Lion and I do have metal parts and therefore we are not as lucky as you. Cause we alarm and then we are subjected to a very unpleasant pat-down. As I explained it to a TSA agent in Colorado Springs they wanted to touch parts of me that I would only allow my doctor, my partner and myself to touch. For me the issue is deeper than just the fact that twice a week I could be subjected to this ....as a child I was subjected to abuse. Once that happens to a child you never quite recover one can only deal with the pain. And deal I did for many years, it really wasn't an issue in my life. That changed in Richland WA when I was subjected to the mother of all pat downs. If you understand anything about the abuse issue victims can be triggered and triggered I was. So I promised myself never to allow that to happen to me again. A promise I was not able to keep. For on Nov 4 I walked through a metal detector and into the heel I deal with now. See TSA changed the rules on Nov but failed to inform the public so when I walked through the metal detector that day I had no idea what was about to happen to me. I won't go into it but I have contacted and am working with the ACLU in Colorado. In wildest dreams I never thought that would happen. I did contact TSA about what happened to me but thats like talking to the hand.

What is my point? Disabled people are being targeted by TSA. We are the people who get the vast majority of these pat downs. Remember that we once had the shoe bomber and we are still talking of our shoes, after the fact. We joked "Glad we don't call him the under ware bomber" and now we do. Why is that important?

The current metal detectors only detect METAL not bombs. So while I am there being very carefully and intimately patted down someone with a bomb in his draws or her bra can slip through. In fact that has happened we call him the underware bomber. What catch any underware bombers? That is the scanner. But there is a problem....the American public doesn't want to be seen kinda naked. Me on the other hand give the naked. But you would be so suprised at the lack of operational scanners in the airports. Today at PHL I was luckly because I was flying out of the F concourse.....the only one with a scanner at this MAJOR airport. At MCO 5 out 7 times I have flown out the scanners were down and I had to wait up to 30 mins to walk through one.

Think about that for 30 minutes the scanners were down in Orlando 5 times. All flyers unprotected from a bomber. I could tell you about other unprotected airplanes.

So when you fly next and you see someone like myself or Richie Lion ......look around see anyone you might suspect. You might want to push them through that scanner.

Me I only fly out of scanner equiped airports and yet I have been patted down. In Boston on the very concourse through which the 911 bombers walked the one and only scanner had been down to 2 days. No protection from bombs for 2 days. You can check the TSA website to find out that only 80 airports have scanners and some only on 1 concourse.

So when you read this post think about me and all the disabled...but more inportant think about just how safe you are.

I suggest you are not as safe as you think.......
  #25  
Old 03-30-2011, 08:13 PM
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Cologal; thank you for your thorough explanation of the stress flying with medical implants is. I can't even imagine the courage of someone who history also includes abuse. I've never been entirely comfortable with doctors touching me in certain places, but to let some blue collar bubba touch me because my implants set off his alarm, or he just feels like it, is more than I can tolerate.

My wife, like Tbugs evidently, is able bodied and mostly has the same stress free "what extra security" flying experience. She's not happy that I get this heart racing with chills thing just anticipating what's going to happen, but it is what it is, and I am who I am.

(I have to add this, I apologize for repeating myself)
Also if, and only if, any aspiring terrorist is going through the backscatter imaging system TSA might, and only might, notice something out of sorts. But if the device is implanted in a body cavity or surgically implanted the terrorist is home free. All 4th Amendment violations and hundreds of millions of tech dollars spent notwithstanding.
  #26  
Old 03-30-2011, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichieLion View Post
Cologal; thank you for your thorough explanation of the stress flying with medical implants is. I can't even imagine the courage of someone who history also includes abuse. I've never been entirely comfortable with doctors touching me in certain places, but to let some blue collar bubba touch me because my implants set off his alarm, or he just feels like it, is more than I can tolerate.

My wife, like Tbugs evidently, is able bodied and mostly has the same stress free "what extra security" flying experience. She's not happy that I get this heart racing with chills thing just anticipating what's going to happen, but it is what it is, and I am who I am.

(I have to add this, I apologize for repeating myself)
Also if, and only if, any aspiring terrorist is going through the backscatter imaging system TSA might, and only might, notice something out of sorts. But if the device is implanted in a body cavity or surgically implanted the terrorist is home free. All 4th Amendment violations and hundreds of millions of tech dollars spent notwithstanding.
I am sorry Richie. I still don't get it. And sorry too Cologal that you have to go through this and it causes you so much anxiety.

There are terrorists and these procedures can help us fly safely or at least a little safer. I think that the procedures are for the greater good and for greater safety. Are they fail safe? Probably not. But you can't just let them think that we aren't tryin'.

Helene has metal wiring in her sternum from a heart surgery. I would never think that she was being targeted.

I cannot believe that every person working for the TSA or a majority of people working for the TSA or a lot of people working for the TSA are sex deviates.

I see that it is your political stance and even your heartfelt belief against government intervention, when not needed and I am trying to see it from your side.

Cologal flies a lot and Richie you don't fly.

Could it just be possible, that most of these people who work for the TSA are just ordinary folks with a job to do?

I do not understand all this fear. At least that is how it feels to me when I read these posts. Fear.


Could you allow yourself to think, just for one moment that these procedures are helping...even a little?

In a perfect world, the one we grew up in even, this wouldn't be necessary. Unfortunately it is.
  #27  
Old 03-31-2011, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by graciegirl View Post
I am sorry Richie. I still don't get it. And sorry too Cologal that you have to go through this and it causes you so much anxiety.

There are terrorists and these procedures can help us fly safely or at least a little safer. I think that the procedures are for the greater good and for greater safety. Are they fail safe? Probably not. But you can't just let them think that we aren't tryin'.

Helene has metal wiring in her sternum from a heart surgery. I would never think that she was being targeted.

I cannot believe that every person working for the TSA or a majority of people working for the TSA or a lot of people working for the TSA are sex deviates.

I see that it is your political stance and even your heartfelt belief against government intervention, when not needed and I am trying to see it from your side.

Cologal flies a lot and Richie you don't fly.

Could it just be possible, that most of these people who work for the TSA are just ordinary folks with a job to do?

I do not understand all this fear. At least that is how it feels to me when I read these posts. Fear.


Could you allow yourself to think, just for one moment that these procedures are helping...even a little?

In a perfect world, the one we grew up in even, this wouldn't be necessary. Unfortunately it is.
You're a very nice human being Gracie. I know you like to think the best of everyone and hope they do the same.

I'm a bit more pessimistic, especially when it comes to average people put in the position of almost unlimited power over another person's body.

Cologal and I are relating personal stories. It doesn't really matter if it's a deviant or schlub, I don't want his hands on the private parts of my body, period. I don't want to go through the "God knows how much radiation we're really being exposed to" naked imaging scan.

If you're fine with strangers touching you, for whatever reason they've pulled you out of line that you cannot ask about, that's your business and your decision. I cannot change how I feel about it.

I don't fly, not because I don't want to. It's because I can't and therefore i won't. I guess I'll be seeing my family a lot less than I thought before I moved 1,000 miles away.

Do I think these procedures are helping? No, not really. Unless you mean helping to enlarge the government and their control over the population. First the airports, then the rail lines, then the shopping malls, etc. etc. They're even developing rolling scans that will be placed in vehicles with the purpose of naked scanning people walking the streets; all for the security of something or another.

Also, and this is a big also. I keep bringing up the fact that people are also subjecting their CHILDREN to this. No one who's answered me in these forums ever mentions the CHILDREN that are also be told by their parents that..............

"Mommy, Daddy, your Doctor and the people in the blue uniforms with badges at the airport are the only people who are allowed to touch you in your private areas." (for now)
  #28  
Old 03-31-2011, 05:27 AM
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I do not believe the TSA is targeting disabled people overtly.

I believe the TSA is a myopic, reactionary, insensitive, self-centered batch of self-declared "experts" who answer to no-one, listen to no-one and have no concept that people have individual situations.

Do you think, for one minute, that a TSA that was forward-thinking would have implemented the kinds of policies they have WITHOUT having put policies in place to handle people with implants or other medical conditions?

Do you think the TSA should be beyond reproach when it's been proven that they are incompetent?

Do you think it makes sense to allow an agency to implement whatever policy it likes without being subject to review or forcing them to justify it? And when those policies ignore procedures that work in favor of buying unproven equipment from politically-connected manufacturers?

Is there some magical reason why, if I enter an airport, I should allow "the authorities" to do things that would get them arrested if they were anywhere EXCEPT an airport? Do I somehow check my Constitution rights at the curb?
  #29  
Old 03-31-2011, 09:33 AM
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DJ; Thank you so much for the additional insight and analysis into this discussion. I agree with every point you've made. Arbitrary authority over me has always gotten my fists to clench and my eyes to narrow.
  #30  
Old 03-31-2011, 11:51 AM
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It just irks me incessantly that the same actions can result in diametrically opposed outcomes.

If a TSA agent asks to fondle my genitals at the security gate and I say "no", I get ejected.

If a TSA agent asks to fondle my genitals at the doors just over 50' away (the entrance to the terminal) and I say "no", I get to sue them for sexual assault, they lose their jobs and may go to prison.

By comparison, any other police officer operates under the same rules no matter where they are.
 

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