Originally Posted by villagegolfer

Abortion really has me confused. Liberals are supposed to be the bleeding hearts, right? They do not want to see murderers executed no matter how heinous the crime? They want all the taxpayers to give their money to all government social programs. Yet they don't blink an eye when a baby is ripped from a mother's womb and killed? Really, please explain why liberal's hearts turn cold and murderous when it involves the most vulnerable beings on earth, the unborn?

...Villagegolfer-It's OK they follow a president who said this when speaking of abortion and in reference to his two daughters "look, I've got two daughters. 9 years old and 6 years old. I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby."



MISTAKE?!?!?A mistake is when you put salt in the recipe instead of sugar, or when you come up with 2+2=5. Punishment?!?!? Conception is the natural consequence of the sexual act. Where is accountablility for one's actions?!?!? To take the life of another, especially an innocent with no means to defend itself? What kind of cruel punishment is that? and for what crime is the tiny person being punished?!?!?!...

Originally Posted by buggyone

No, Katz, I personally believe that life begins at birth when a baby breaths it's first breath.

I am Pro-Choice and will only vote for a Pro-Choice candidate.

You may believe what you wish - and I respect your right to do so. I am not going to argue this point on anymore as there is no way either of us could say anything to to convince the other. Thank you for respecting my right to my viewpoints.

Like I said...it isn't belief in what I wish, it is medical fact, that I have proven to you. I assume that you are a man? but man or woman, have you ever had to make such a choice?

Buggyone, Apparently you have some emotional refusal to accept hard scientific fact...but here are some more just in case you are willing to use your brain this time-

Over 90 percent are done in freestanding abortion centers. With almost no exceptions, these abortion mills have no supervision, are not state inspected and are not required to have emergency resuscitation equipment. They have inadequate ambulance facilities, often have no RN’s on duty and, most importantly, no qualified surgeon to do the work.

The only requirement to do abortions in almost every state is an MD or a DO degree. You can be a dermatologist and open an abortion facility. You can be a hack, denied surgical or even admitting privileges in any hospital, and still do abortions.

In fact, many abortionists are these kinds of incompetent doctors ~

When confounding factors are eliminated, a picture has emerged of a broad spectrum of problems resulting from abortion. Let us list some:


Maternal Deaths: Compared to childbirth, women who have abortions have an elevated risk of death later from all causes. This persists for at least 8 years. A higher risk of death from suicide and accidents are most prominent. Projected on the national population, this effect may contribute to 2000-5000 additional deaths among women each year.1


Psychiatric Hospitalization: A review of the medical records of 56,741 Medicaid patients revealed that the women who had had abortions were 160 percent more likely to be hospitalized for psychiatric treatment in the first 90 days following abortions, as compared to those who delivered. Rates of such treatment remain significantly higher for at least 4 years.


Clinical Depression: Compared to women who carry their first unintended pregnancy to term, women who abort their first pregnancy are at a significantly higher risk of clinical depression, as measured in an average of 8 years after their first pregnancy.3


Substance Abuse: Compared to women who carry to term, women who abort are 5 times more likely to subsequently abuse drugs or alcohol.4
Outpatient Psychiatric Care: Analysts of California Medicaid records show that women who have abortions will subsequently require significantly more treatment for psychiatric illness through outpatient care.5


Effect on Children: The children of women who have abortions, have less supportive home environments and more behavioral problems than the children of women without a history of abortion. This finding supports the view that abortion may negatively effect bonding with subsequent children and disturb mothering skills. It may not only have such negative effects upon the children, but in very significant ways impact women’s psychological stability.6


Substance Abuse During Subsequent Pregnancies: Compared to women delivering their first pregnancy, women with a history of abortion are five times more likely to use illicit drugs and two times more likely to use alcohol during their next pregnancies. Besides the negative effects on the women, these substances place their unborn children at risk of birth defects, low birth weight and death.7


Long Term Clinical Depression: Analysis of a federally funded longitude study of American women revealed that women who aborted were 65 percent more likely to be at risk of long-term clinical depression, after controlling for age, race, education, marital status, history of divorce, income and prior psychiatric state.8


Placenta Previa: After abortion there’s a 7 to 15-fold increase in placenta previa in subsequent pregnancies. This abnormal development of the placenta is due to damage to the lining of the womb from the abortion. It can be fatal for the women. It also increases the risk of birth defects, stillbirth and excessive bleeding during labor.


Premature Birth: Premature birth is a well-documented after-effect of induced abortion. This is due to damage to the cervix, which results in an increased incident of premature births. Preemies die more often than full term babies and have more frequent disabilities resulting from the premature birth. Such problems obviously have continuing negative emotional impact on the women.


Ectopic Pregnancy: Women have an increased risk of subsequent tubal (ectopic) pregnancies. These can be life threatening; they also reduce future fertility.


Other Post-Abortion Problems: Thirty to fifty percent of such women report experiencing sexual dysfunction such as promiscuity, loss of pleasure from intercourse, increased pain and aversion to sex and men. Women with a history of abortion are significantly more likely to subsequently have shorter relationships and divorce more often.

Women with a prior abortion are four times more likely to have a repeat abortion in the future than those who have no abortion history. Note: 45 to 47 percent of all abortions are now repeat abortions.

The significant increase in breast cancer among women who have had abortions is well known. With a higher rate of Human Papilloma Virus (HPV) infections, they also have a higher risk of cervical cancer. Since smoking is sharply increased among post-abortion women, one could anticipate a possible greater incident of lung cancer.

And finally, one cannot overlook the fact that 10 percent of women suffer immediate complications. These include infection, hemorrhage, cervical injury, blood clots, anesthesia complications, chronic abdominal pain, Rh sensitization, gastro-intestinal disturbances, vomiting, fever and occasionally, endotoxic shock.

Note that while many of the above complications fall under the sequelae included under “Post-Abortion Syndrome,” there is much, much more guilt, distress and heartbreak not directly reflected in the above.

Conclusion
We now have enough definitive studies about women who’ve had abortions to totally refute any attempt by pro-abortion zealots to claim that abortion is safer than childbirth. The above complications are an incomplete list, but space prevents further elaboration.

Our thanks go to Dr. David Reardon, Director of the Elliot Institute, who is the author of most of the studies quoted above. To contact the Elliot Institute for more documentation, visit www.afterabortion.org.

1 Southern Medical Journal 2002
2 Pregnancy Associated Deaths in Finland 1987 - 1994, M. Gissler At All Acta Obstet. Gynecal. Scandi 76, 1997, p. 651-657, graphs from Elliot Institute.
3 British Medical Journal 2002
4 American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse 2000
5 American Journal of Ortho Psychiatry 2002
6 Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry 2002
7 American Journal of Ob-Gyn 2002
8 Medical Science Monitor 2003
[By J.C. Willke, MD, Life Issues Connector, April 2006]

Originally Posted by buggyone

No, Katz, I personally believe that life begins at birth when a baby breaths it's first breath.

I am Pro-Choice and will only vote for a Pro-Choice candidate.

You may believe what you wish - and I respect your right to do so. I am not going to argue this point on anymore as there is no way either of us could say anything to to convince the other. Thank you for respecting my right to my viewpoints.

Then you must believe that when organs are removed from breathing humans to transplant into a human who'll die without that organ that the doctors are committing murder. The law of the land says that when brain waves are no longer evident, that the person is "legally dead" and that's why, and when, transplant procedures, that you must consider murder, are performed.

If you want to dispute what I just said, then you must also agree that when brain wave activity IS evident, then that person is alive and human. That is, as previously noted here, at 6 weeks past conception.

Please feel free to correct any error in my analysis. Try not to be hypocritical.

(Of course, I don't expect any rational response to my query from pro-abortionists.)

Originally Posted by RichieLion

(Of course, I don't expect any rational response to my query from pro-abortionists.)

TRUE~but how can we expect one from people who ask us to "open your mind" in one post and then turn around and state "I am not going to argue this point on anymore as there is no way either of us could say anything to to convince the other."(Oh, that's real open minded) They have two sets of rules-one for others and one for them. We read their links and post our rebuttal and they disappear. They say they want us to give facts, but when we do they can't handle it. They respond on an emotional level and don't want to have intellectual debates. They know we are right about this subject and when they can't guilt trip us off the track with the poor lady who died in the back alley, they walk away and give us that agree to disagree garbage. I'm tired of people telling us that we want to be right, like it is some kind of terminal illness. Hello...who wants to be wrong? Pro-Choice my arse...these people who want to use that lingo forget that these women, and men, made the choice at the time of conception. Except in the case of rape, no one held a gun to their head to carry out certain deeds? Then they make the argument that abortions will still happen even if it becomes illegal. Hey, I still exceed the speed limit on occassion, so why not get rid of that limit! Pedophelia is illegal but it still happens, why not legalize it? Theft and robbery and murder still happen, why not legalize it? Hey, marijuana might as well be legal too, it can't be much worse than a couple of beers! What the heck! Lets just all do whatever we want to do, without any regard for anybody else...

Originally Posted by KatzPajamas

yep, it's between a mom, a dad, a doctor and God...and this little guy in the Diary of an Unborn Baby......[U]http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/f...velopment.html[U]...and for those of you who don't go to the website- brain waves are detected at 6weeks after conception...FIRST TRIMESTER!

Still don't give YOU the right to make the decision. You take care of your business and let GOD take care of his.

Originally Posted by KatzPajamas

Sir, you can believe what you want to believe, you are certainly free to do that. Believe that the earth is flat, or that broccoli causes cancer, but your believing doesn't make it fact. Also, you are entitled to your own opinion, even if it is not in alignment with scientific evidence.(Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Biology)-life-"the state or quality that distinguishes living beings or organisms from dead ones and from inorganic matter, characterized chiefly by metabolism, growth, and the ability to reproduce and respond to stimuli." You might also consider one of the simple definitions in Webster's-life:c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction .
(Pretty sure that an unborn baby has us both beat on its rate of growth alone.)
It isn't legal for a mother to take the life of her own child, that sir, is murder, against which there is a law.

Judge not and yee shall not be judged. Are you getting warmer.

Originally Posted by villagegolfer

Abortion really has me confused. Liberals are supposed to be the bleeding hearts, right? They do not want to see murderers executed no matter how heinous the crime? They want all the taxpayers to give their money to all government social programs. Yet they don't blink an eye when a baby is ripped from a mother's womb and killed? Really, please explain why liberal's hearts turn cold and murderous when it involves the most vulnerable beings on earth, the unborn?

I am a red neck and a conservative, but firmly believe in pro choice.

Admin

I have asked Admin to delete this post, but on the way out I want to say I am sorry I posted it. I am too passionate about my personal rights being taken away by government intervention and folks like Katz is very passionate about the other side of this topic. Please lets drop this topic and let GOD deal with me and katz down the road.

Again, I will try to think twice before I post once.

Closed pending Mod review.