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  #16  
Old 04-13-2011, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by djplong View Post
There's certainly nothing wring with being patriotic - they're just in WAY over their heads. What's worse is that their ignorance gets ignored by their fan base - much in the way that Obama's inexperience was largely glossed over.

I mean, if you really look at Palin's record, it's not that impressive because being mayor of Wasilla and governor of Alaska are, comparatively speaking EASY jobs. Governing Massachusetts is FAR more difficult than governing Alaska, which is why Romney gets more respect from me than Palin.

That's where I have the mental disconnect. Palin, Bachman and Trump getting the press. Pawlenty is, technically speaking, the front-runner (in that he's the only actually DECLARED candidate) and Romney is mostly ignored - though he's run before and is most likely to run again.

The difference is these "ignorant" people who are "way over their heads" are saying things the party faithful relate to, and would like to hear your "front-runners" articulate. Who cares if Bachman get a inconsequential history fact wrong. She'd like to dump a cold bucket of whoop-a** on Obama's head, and we'd like to see her do it. We're tired of these "front-runners" going along to get along attitude and their willingness to compromise principles.

Screw compromise; people want someone with a will strong enough to take these progressives on, beat them, and give them a big kick in the backside on their way out the door.

That's why Trump, Palin and Bachman are connecting with the base. The Republican RINO leadership better be paying attention, because this latest capitulation to Obama just got everyone madder than ever.
  #17  
Old 04-13-2011, 10:12 AM
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Default How about a novel approach? Measure them all the same

way?
The current discussions sound like it's OK to have the incompetence we have in the current herd of space taker uppers in Washington, and that anybody new, of the opposition that is, that is far and away better than most incumbents is flawed is ......

btk
  #18  
Old 04-13-2011, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by RichieLion View Post
The difference is these "ignorant" people who are "way over their heads" are saying things the party faithful relate to, and would like to hear your "front-runners" articulate. Who cares if Bachman get a inconsequential history fact wrong. She'd like to dump a cold bucket of whoop-a** on Obama's head, and we'd like to see her do it. We're tired of these "front-runners" going along to get along attitude and their willingness to compromise principles.
Umm.. This is a COUNTRY. A representative republic. This is NOT a pay-per-view wrestling event. And isn't "Screw Planned Parenthood" (and lying on the floor of Congress saying abortion is 90% of it's business when it's actually 3%) the conservative version of any number of liberal blather that keeps us focused on minutae and ignores the Elephant in the Living Room?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichieLion View Post
Screw compromise; people want someone with a will strong enough to take these progressives on, beat them, and give them a big kick in the backside on their way out the door.
Are you forgetting that liberals, progressives and, more importantly CENTRISTS make up more of this country?

Can you name me a case where sloganeering solved a problem?

And I'm not sarcastic here - can you point me to any Tea Party legislator statement that proposed legislation to punish the unelected people who drove our economy ito the ground - the bankers we bailed out and who are now back to their old ways?

*Believe me* I understand the frustration. But time and time again, the polls show that Americans are fundamentally ignorant about where the money comes from and goes to when it travels through Washington. Never mind the fact that you can play with numbers that show whatever you want.

Want to keep taxes low on 'the rich'? Point out that the top 10% of earners pays over a third of the taxes - the top 50% paying 99%.

Want to hike taxes on 'the rich'? Point out that taxes are lower than they have been since the 1950s.

Want to stop development of commuter rail in New Hampshire (to take a local example)? Point out that an annual subsidy of $6M might be needed and make a claim that it should pay for itself.

Want to continue that development? Point out that highways do NO pay their way, they're subsidized just like airports and airlines (Gas tax took in $30B and highways cost $50B - guess where the difference comes from).

It's all 'spin' these days.
  #19  
Old 04-13-2011, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by djplong View Post
Isn't "Screw Planned Parenthood" (and lying on the floor of Congress saying abortion is 90% of it's business when it's actually 3%) the conservative version of any number of liberal blather that keeps us focused on minutae and ignores the Elephant in the Living Room?
Why John Kyle said that?; I can only guess that he is as outraged as me, by the over 320,000 abortions performed by government funded Planned Parenthood last year. THAT'S ONE EVERY 95 SECONDS. I'm being forced against my will to contribute to this abomination.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/...fe-american-ev

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/fil...P_Services.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by djplong View Post
Are you forgetting that liberals, progressives and, more importantly CENTRISTS make up more of this country?
Wrong; Conservative still outnumber liberals and moderates.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/141032/20...-liberals.aspx

Quote:
Originally Posted by djplong View Post
And I'm not sarcastic here - can you point me to any Tea Party legislator statement that proposed legislation to punish the unelected people who drove our economy ito the ground - the bankers we bailed out and who are now back to their old ways?
If you were to try to explain the economic realities to the average voter in all it's minutia, their eyes would glaze over and you'd lose them.

What this country needs is a Conservative candidate who can articulate what this country stands for, and what it needs to do to save itself, in the manner of Ronald Reagan. If just one person could do that and has even the slightest bit of charisma he would overwhelm the devolutionist, secularist, socialist, progressive liberals who have their hands around the throat of America.

The proof of what I say is in the public's eagerness to grab onto anyone who has the nerve to stand up and proclaim America's greatness to the world and the desire to bring it back from the edge of the precipice where the current leadership has dragged us.

You need to look at the public's fascination with Trump, Palin, Bachman, etc. and deduce why these figures are garnering so much prestige.
If someone could do as I wish, and avoid being caricatured, he/she would move mountains.
  #20  
Old 04-13-2011, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by RichieLion View Post
Why John Kyle said that?; I can only guess that he is as outraged as me, by the over 320,000 abortions performed by government funded Planned Parenthood last year. THAT'S ONE EVERY 95 SECONDS. I'm being forced against my will to contribute to this abomination.
Careful - you're going to get into a "who's ox is being gored" debate. I mean, when you go down THAT path, it's too easy to come up with "oh yeah, well *I* don't like (fill in the blank) and my taxes go towards THAT".

A little research indicates that Planned Parenthood gets about 1/3 of it's funding from the government. Their income from clinics was about the same dollar amount and the rest seem to come from donations.

Think for a moment - NINETY SEVEN PERCENT of Planned Parenthood's activities are things I would imagine you agree with. Cancer screenings, affordable contraception (30 years ago it was the only affordable source for birth control pills that my wife took), etc.

In 2009, government grants and contracts provided $360M of Planned Parenthood's income. I don't have handy how much of that is local versus federal. All I can find at the moment was that, in 2004, $100M came from 2 federal programs - Medicaid and Title IX, the rest from local/state sources.

Now. Consider how much in taxes General Electric WOULD have paid on their $14.2B in profits at the corporate rate. (close to $5B)

Consider how little even $300M is compare to the over $3.5T budget. You have to get to $35B to even get to 1%. It's less than 1/100th of 1%.

And remember, it's less than three percent of the services that are 30% funded by less than 0.001% of the federal budget.

And, as a side note, Kyl's office clarified his statements form the other day. I'm not making this up. They said in a statement they released that his comments were "not intended to be a factual statement".

In other words, his comments were intended to be a lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichieLion View Post
Wrong; Conservative still outnumber liberals and moderates.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/141032/20...-liberals.aspx
Not according to those numbers. If the 42% conservative number is accurate, there are 58% in the other two categories. In addition, it tallies what people describe themselves as 0 and that might not be terribly accurate. People here think I'm a liberal. My liberal friend in western MA thinks I'm hard core conservative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichieLion View Post
If you were to try to explain the economic realities to the average voter in all it's minutia, their eyes would glaze over and you'd lose them.

What this country needs is a Conservative candidate who can articulate what this country stands for, and what it needs to do to save itself, in the manner of Ronald Reagan. If just one person could do that and has even the slightest bit of charisma he would overwhelm the devolutionist, secularist, socialist, progressive liberals who have their hands around the throat of America.

The proof of what I say is in the public's eagerness to grab onto anyone who has the nerve to stand up and proclaim America's greatness to the world and the desire to bring it back from the edge of the precipice where the current leadership has dragged us.

You need to look at the public's fascination with Trump, Palin, Bachman, etc. and deduce why these figures are garnering so much prestige.
If someone could do as I wish, and avoid being caricatured, he/she would move mountains.
It's because we, as a whole, are too tired and want simple answers to complex questions. I certainly agree that we need Reagan-like characteristics in someone to get the messages to the people. After all, his nickname WAS The Great Communicator.

I don't agree with all your conclusions, though. I believe there's a middle ground that would make the overwhelming majority of people happy - especially if they didn't have blowhards like Beck on one side and that Ed guy on MSNBC for the other side fanning the flames of hyperpartisanship just to get ratings at the expense of a national dialog.
  #21  
Old 04-13-2011, 11:11 PM
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DJ; we'll see soon enough who is right about this. I'm betting the people are sick and tired of the "middle ground". I've had enough "middle ground" to last me a lifetime.

You argue with Gallup if you want, but not with me. You said there were more liberals/progressives and centrists (moderates) that conservatives, and that is not what the polling data show. Now you want to change your premise when confronted with the numbers. Besides, I'm betting if the candidate I'm hoping for is there at the right time, the Independents will flock to him/her over the current mistake in the Oval Office.

I'm sure you can argue all day with John Kyle and me, but in the end 320,000 taxpayer subsidized abortions a year is going to be a horrifying reality to us no matter how you present it. Please don't equate this destruction of human life with other government contracts. It's unseemly to me and any other believing Christian.
  #22  
Old 04-14-2011, 07:19 AM
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I rarely trot this out because it's such an unpleasant memory.

Have you ever had to clean up a miscarriage? I have.

I've had to console my wife, burying my own feelings at the time, and clean up the mess when she miscarried some 3+ months into a pregnancy.

To equate that 'level of development' with a full-formed child is a matter of opinion.

Was it alive? Yes. Was it human? Call it a "work in progress" - all the ingredients were there. Technically speaking, the medical term is "spontaneous abortion".

Was it the same as a child at birth? No.
Was it the same as a fetus at 8 months? 7? No.

If memory serves, something over 98% of all abortions occur in the first trimester. Once you get past that, there are usually complications, medical reasons and other extenuating circumstances.

Someone spoke of when the heart beats - yeah, and it's a single chamber heart at the time with more in common with a frog than a FULL-DEVELOPED human.

Again, the ingredients are there and, in 2 out of 3 cases, if properly nourished through it's *technically* parasitic stage you get a baby in the end (estimates are that 1 out of 3 pregnancies end in miscarriage, very often with the woman barely knowing she was pregnant or perhaps mistaking a 'heavy period' for an early term miscarriage).

I'm betting that people are more sick and tired of the hyper-partisanship. The "I want everything on my list or I take my ball and go home" attitude. That's the attitude of spoiled children, not mature adults who realize they have to live in a world with people who do not share all their beliefs or priorities.
  #23  
Old 04-14-2011, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djplong View Post
I rarely trot this out because it's such an unpleasant memory.

Have you ever had to clean up a miscarriage? I have.

I've had to console my wife, burying my own feelings at the time, and clean up the mess when she miscarried some 3+ months into a pregnancy.

To equate that 'level of development' with a full-formed child is a matter of opinion.

Was it alive? Yes. Was it human? Call it a "work in progress" - all the ingredients were there. Technically speaking, the medical term is "spontaneous abortion".

Was it the same as a child at birth? No.
Was it the same as a fetus at 8 months? 7? No.

If memory serves, something over 98% of all abortions occur in the first trimester. Once you get past that, there are usually complications, medical reasons and other extenuating circumstances.

Someone spoke of when the heart beats - yeah, and it's a single chamber heart at the time with more in common with a frog than a FULL-DEVELOPED human.

Again, the ingredients are there and, in 2 out of 3 cases, if properly nourished through it's *technically* parasitic stage you get a baby in the end (estimates are that 1 out of 3 pregnancies end in miscarriage, very often with the woman barely knowing she was pregnant or perhaps mistaking a 'heavy period' for an early term miscarriage).

I'm betting that people are more sick and tired of the hyper-partisanship. The "I want everything on my list or I take my ball and go home" attitude. That's the attitude of spoiled children, not mature adults who realize they have to live in a world with people who do not share all their beliefs or priorities.
I'm sorry about your terrible experience, and yet cannot believe you think it relevant to a moral discussion on the willful destruction of a human life by abortion.

I still think it's hypocritical for anyone who believes in the definition of the end of life, as in the ending of brain function, to not also believe in the start of brain function as the beginning of life. That would be about 40 days gestation. I don't hold this view as a Christian who believes in life at conception, but it should be held by any honestly intellectual student of life science.

There really is no point in continuing this discussion because obviously we have different ideas on what is human life and the value of it. I will continue to comment if I feel the need to, but to what end, I do not know.
  #24  
Old 04-14-2011, 10:40 AM
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Everybody just tries to get under everyone else's skin. And the irrational discussion is never-ending....full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
  #25  
Old 04-14-2011, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by DaleMN View Post
Everybody just tries to get under everyone else's skin. And the irrational discussion is never-ending....full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
What is the purpose of your post? In the discussion DJ and I were having and you read, where is there an irrational thought? Where is the "sound and fury"?

My mother use to say that if you have nothing interesting to add to a conversation, silence is a good option.
  #26  
Old 04-14-2011, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by RichieLion View Post

My mother use to say that if you have nothing interesting to add to a conversation, silence is a good option.
It is an option several who post here should consider.
  #27  
Old 04-14-2011, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DaleMN View Post
It is an option several who post here should consider.
Don't feel that way. You should post whenever you have an interesting thought. Don't let my admonition stop you.
  #28  
Old 04-15-2011, 07:07 PM
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DP, While this is a complicated discussion, the idea that only 3% of Planned Parenthoods budget went for abortions is patently false. Your figures for Planned Parenthood income and the governments share of that income are accurate approximately one third of PPs one billion dollar income comes from the National Government.

PPs figures show that it performed 332,278 abortions in 2009. If you do the math it shows that Planned Parenthood claims the total cost of an abortion is $10 including medical personnel, facilities, disposable supplies, insurance, facility construction and maintenance together with its share of overhead costs. Planned Parenthoods own figures place the average cost of an abortion at $650 in the first trimester. Second trimester abortions are more expensive averaging around $2.100 each.

If we assume that one-half of the abortions are performed in the first trimester and one-half in the second trimester then the cost for the first trimester abortions is 180 million dollars the cost for the second trimester babies totals 349 million dollars. The total costs for abortions performed by Planned Parenthood, using their own numbers, exceeds $500,000,000 or approximately one-half of the organizations total budget.
  #29  
Old 04-15-2011, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by BBQMan View Post
DP, While this is a complicated discussion, the idea that only 3% of Planned Parenthoods budget went for abortions is patently false. Your figures for Planned Parenthood income and the governments share of that income are accurate approximately one third of PPs one billion dollar income comes from the National Government.

If we assume that one-half of the abortions are performed in the first trimester and one-half in the second trimester then the cost ...........
We all know what 'assume' breaks down to.
  #30  
Old 04-16-2011, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by DaleMN View Post
We all know what 'assume' breaks down to.
This is supposed to be original, funny or intelligent? Sorry, it fails on all three.
 

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