Cart path closing

[JeffAVEWS]

Let’s consider this. The owner of the property established a right-of-way; He made improvements, paved it and installed lighting, for the sole purpose of providing access for foot, bicycle, or golf cart passage thru his property. He maintained the access, made repairs to the lights and landscaped the property. He also erected a gate to limit that access, but was ordered to remove the gate because it blocked a public street. If the Town of Lady Lake had legal standing to require the removal of the gate, they have the same authority to require the removal of the wall.

[NoMoSno]

Absolutely right. Also, do not forget that the Developer has an excellent team of well-paid attorneys if there would be any legal challenges.

His well paid attorneys didn't fair to well in this case:
Villages settles lawsuit, will fund $40 million in recreation upgrades (http://www.ccfj.net/CDDVillages$40milllawsuit.html)

Revenge for the historic side?...

[Steve9930]

Chuckinca, I could be wrong but isn't the cement path from the medical complex to the streets private and also the blacktop path from the street all the way over to the bridge private also? Is the bridge public or private? I think it's pretty much the way the rest of The Villages operates.

As far as I believe they are all public. There maybe some private roads in the Villages but for the most part all the roads are public.

[Steve9930]

Let�s consider this. The owner of the property established a right-of-way; He made improvements, paved it and installed lighting, for the sole purpose of providing access for foot, bicycle, or golf cart passage thru his property. He maintained the access, made repairs to the lights and landscaped the property. He also erected a gate to limit that access, but was ordered to remove the gate because it blocked a public street. If the Town of Lady Lake had legal standing to require the removal of the gate, they have the same authority to require the removal of the wall.

Now lets see is they have the will power to go against big money?

[janmcn]

Absolutely right. Also, do not forget that the Developer has an excellent team of well-paid attorneys if there would be any legal challenges.

His well paid attorneys didn't fair to well in this case:
Villages settles lawsuit, will fund $40 million in recreation upgrades (http://www.ccfj.net/CDDVillages$40milllawsuit.html)

Revenge for the historic side?...


His well paid attorneys aren't fairing too well in the IRS case either.

[JeffAVEWS]

Rubicon, thank you for the compliment. The internet is a wonderful thing! As I said in the post it's fodder for the lawyers, that's why they get big bucks! I just think there is grounds for the argument.

[Steve9930]

Good question. The path was paved with pavers and well landscaped. The grass along the sides was mowed.Who payed for it?
Anytime people from Stonecrest, Spruce Creek, Water Oak, Harbor Hills ,etc, want to get to Village facilities they can hop in a car.
The only unpaved section of the whole trip to Lowes was a small section just before entering the road to the stores. From Aldis to Walmart was also not paved.

The portion just there at Wal-Mart over Progress Energy's property as I understand it will remain open and most likely be improved. Wal-Mart and progress Energy are working out the details. Once the other construction is done there will be no more bumpy dirt path to travel.

[rp001]

Now lets see is they have the will power to go against big money?

He, Morse, would just change out the city's elected officials, just as he did in Sumter county..Raise them, train them, finance them, then get them elected..

[Steve9930]

He, Morse, would just change out the city's elected officials, just as he did in Sumter county..Raise them, train them, finance them, then get them elected..

LOL, Democracy at its finest........

[PLedoux]

As of this morning, The Villages has blocked access to the cut through that Life Family Practice opened to allow carts to come through their property. The fence is back up.

[LyndaS]

I didn’t want to comment until I finished reading all the posts (which took a while)… I am writing just to show my support to the folks over in the Historic Area. I am pretty surprised at the lack of empathy for our fellow Villagers. I would be very upset if all of a sudden a cart path that I used all the time was just blocked with no warning or explanation. Especially, where it also involves food shopping and doctor appointments! I think whoever is responsible is counting on letting some time go by and quietly sweeping it away. One of the reasons that I chose where I live is continued access to those necessities at a time when I may not be able to drive my car. I’m sure many of the people in the Historic area planned the same way.

[Bogie Shooter]

His well paid attorneys didn't fair to well in this case:
Villages settles lawsuit, will fund $40 million in recreation upgrades (http://www.ccfj.net/CDDVillages$40milllawsuit.html)

Revenge for the historic side?...

What a stretch!

[BettyCrocked]

I've always had a pretty middle of the road opinion of the developer. He's not the Messiah, but he's also not satan.
The way he is treating this situation with complete and total silence and gag orders on his employees is certainly not helping his case.
If there was a valid, logical reason for the wall, why doesn't he just come out and give it?
His silence is speaking volumes.

[graciegirl]

I hear all kinds of views and many from anonymous posters and many from new posters and many from people that most of us have read over some time and have an idea who they are and what kind of folks they are.

I wish that there was some way to know when people log in with inflammatory posts particularly that the rest of us knew if they lived here, if they had a dog in the fight to defame this whole area and the developer for some reason productive to them and their money or if they opposed the developer because he is rich or because they don't agree with his financial support of certain things we aren't allowed to mention.

It seems that the residents of the historic area have more reason, the most reasons to be upset terribly by the change. I wish that the rest of us knew how many do not own cars or cannot drive cars. Is it more than ten people? Is it more than twenty people? Is there a way that can be changed or helped?

I know that I, like many of my age treasure being independent and getting where I need to go myself, without the rigamarole of waiting for others to come pick me up or asking for charity. I see those as most affected. It isn't insurmountable but it isn't going to be easy shifting doctors or hiring a cab or getting a car to take you to work. There are other restaurants and Lowes isn't someplace most of us need to get to frequently. There is a service that will shop for you, I know, I know we like to shop for ourselves.

I am NOT trying to minimize but only trying to do what I have always done for myself when a roadblock is thrown up to my plans. This time unfortunately it is a real roadblock. Acess the damage and try to make new plans.

It is a big problem for those people but just how many people are involved that only have golf cart transportation that could not change that mode? Is it such an issue that they would feel it necessary to move? Does it affect more home owners than renters? Although I don't think that matters now that I have typed it.

I think that most of the rest of us have watched and hoped that the gate would be reopened and the way that you who live in the three villages affected could go back to the way things were.

Perhaps the town of Lady Lake could be persuaded to pave the area of frontage if it is public property?

We may never know the real reason why the wall was put up. I personally think that trying to change it is futile. We do not VOTE in a CDD.

Frustration breeds anger, but is anger productive? I was hoping to hear some good reason why the wall was put up. I think it well may be that the property owner of the area next door could claim that their place is golf cart accessible to The Villages and that is ****ing off the Morses.

[Peachie]

I read the post about the individual that will no longer be making purchases because the entrance was closed. A little bit of frustration between the lines. The bottom line is all the cart paths in the Villages are not engineered to only allow Village Residents. Whether the wall is up or down really makes little difference. They are all mostly accessible. From what I read in other post seems to indicate that since this path connects to a public road it is not legal to restrict access. Well most of the paths within the Villages all connect to legal roads so they are all in the same boat so to speak. Since that is the case I'm wondering why the Villagers have to pay for all the cart paths. Seems like it should be the counties responsibility and maintained with tax dollars. As for access into StoneCrest via Golf Cart you can do exactly that if you go to the front gate and enter that way. There is no restriction from going to the restaurant or the Golf course.


I think you just made the case for The Villages, Steve. The cart paths in The Villages are exactly that... just for Village residents. There is a sense out there from surrounding residences outside The Villages that we should all move over, non-Villagers are entitled to use our private paths too. Stonecrest is welcome to come to our restaurants and shops and we're happy they can drive in and do that, the only requirement is that they use the public roads to do so. This may explain why the Morse's enclosed that, "hole in The Villages wall". (Yes, I know it was a fence piece that was placed there.)

[JeffAVEWS]

Gracie I live in the Historic side, in the home that was my mothers. My wife has anoxic encephalopathy (AE), brain damage from lack of oxygen. She is not fully functional, but she was able to go to Wal-Mart in the golf cart by herself. She did this often, some times 3 times a day. It provided some relief for me, and it was beneficial for her to enjoy a little independence. I purchased this home from my brothers (Chuckinca is one) because it allowed some freedom of movement for my wife. This wall my be just a little inconvenience for some people, but for others it's a real hardship.

[linko38]

thanx chuck/spk - i was aware of the spruce creek authorization but not aware that there is anything in the works for stonecrest residents to have a crossing also.

Yes there is. Stonecrest residents are sent weekly emails regarding this. Also the land currently owned by Duke energy where the walmart path is is up for sale. The new owners (so we are bring told) will add improvements. We are waiting on that also. Its sad that so many post on here are so negative toward Stonecrest. Why can't we all get along? I feel real bad for the residents in Orange Blossom. This must be awefull.

[oot]

I think you just made the case for The Villages, Steve. The cart paths in The Villages are exactly that... just for Village residents. There is a sense out there from surrounding residences outside The Villages that we should all move over, non-Villagers are entitled to use our private paths too. Stonecrest is welcome to come to our restaurants and shops and we're happy they can drive in and do that, the only requirement is that they use the public roads to do so. This may explain why the Morse's enclosed that, "hole in The Villages wall". (Yes, I know it was a fence piece that was placed there.)

I know the Stonecrest issue upsets some residents of the Villages, but I don't think that was the reason the wall went up. If that was the case, it would have gone up long ago.

I never had issue with Mr. Morse. I thought he was a great businessman and some of the things which were done could have been for business reasons (like closing of the country club restaurants - although disappointing). To goal to make money is one of the reasons people get into business. He built a wonderful place to live!

But - the lack of communication from his team regarding the reasons why they placed the wall up to the residents was a poor decision on his part. I understand why people are upset and they have the right to be. My biggest fear is what will be next.....

[graciegirl]

I know the Stonecrest issue upsets some residents of the Villages, but I don't think that was the reason the wall went up. If that was the case, it would have gone up long ago.

I never had issue with Mr. Morse. I thought he was a great businessman and some of the things which were done could have been for business reasons (like closing of the country club restaurants - although disappointing). To goal to make money is one of the reasons people get into business. He built a wonderful place to live!

But - the lack of communication from his team regarding the reasons why they placed the wall up to the residents was a poor decision on his part. I understand why people are upset and they have the right to be. My biggest fear is what will be next.....

Well said. But what are you thinking could be next?

[jebartle]

Sales of LSV's (Street Legals) or they could allow (as so many towns) crossing of roads with speed limits of 45 MPH or less...I've always said if pedestrians, bicycles and handicap scooters can cross, why not golf carts?????

[graciegirl]

Sales of LSV's (Street Legals) or they could allow (as so many towns) crossing of roads with speed limits of 45 MPH or less...I've always said if pedestrians, bicycles and handicap scooters can cross, why not golf carts?????

Street legals are NOT legal on roads with a high speed limit like 441/27. I don't think that will solve it. Am I right or wrong on this?

[gomoho]

Would the mean spirited people stop posting PLEASE. You're working just like our government now - divide and conquer. This could affect each and everyone of us in the future and if it was you I'm sure you would want the support of other Villagers not affected. So for heavens sake - stop fighting amongst each other and come together on this.

I believe, as several have posted, the most attention will be brought to the situation by picketing. The last thing TV wants is bad publicity and that is probably the only way to get their attention. It may not resolve the problem, but would hopefully get some answers.

[ttown]

You can cross Rt 441 , but not drive on it in a street legal cart...no help at all.
We have lived here 25 yrs. We have served on the VHA Board, the CIC and volunteered many, many times. We are indirectly responsible for 13 people moving to the Villages. I find the way that this was done, and the treatment since, insulting and offensive.
If nothing else, we deserve an explanation.

[champion6]

I was hoping to hear some good reason why the wall was put up. I think it well may be that the property owner of the area next door could claim that their place is golf cart accessible to The Villages and that is ****ing off the Morses.I believe this to be true and the sole reason for the wall.

[EdV]

Hi Ed,

People on here feel that you know your stuff when it comes to these kind of issues and I have no reason to believe that what you say is not correct. But, I have looked up some addresses and I don't understand how the wall could be constructed on the county line. Several of the doc in that medical center are listed at 1501 Hwy 41 LADY LAKE, Lowe's is listed as being in Lady Lake as is Aldi
I supposed that it's possible that the county line takes some kind of weird turn or twist but the first business that is listed as being in Summerfield is Wal_Mart.

Winston, not sure what documents you were looking at but you need to use the Lake and Sumter on-line property appraiser GIS system.

The "Concrete Curtain" is along the border between the two counties. I just can't tell which one and whether it's on Morse's plot or the medical center's plot.

[oot]

Well said. But what are you thinking could be next?

I really don't know - could there be other access area which may soon see a wall? It might not affect me directly, but may affect others. What about some other item we have grown to love - could it go without notice as well?

This wall affects the residents of that area for what seems to be no good reason. With all the fall out that this has caused you would think he would reconsider or comment.

He is still trying to sell houses and the negative publicity regarding this is not a good business decision in my mind. With the IRS situation out there and now this strange decision to put up a wall, it might make a potential buyer stop and think. I know we were skiddish about the IRS, but decided to take the risk and buy anyway because the lifestyle and beauty of this place outweighed the potential outcome.

The Villages is a GREAT place to live and I thank him for the ability to buy into such a great community. I just hope it stays as great as it is and does not change as time goes by.

[TVMayor]

I would suggest a group of Demonstrators show up Friday, August 16th 3pm to 5pm in the area of Gilchrist Rec Center on Pinellas PL &Dafoe Ter to be viewed by the guest of the new Designer Model Home Center. I will be in attendance at the center to view the reaction.

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii199/The_Villages/Group_zpsc69b5dab.jpg

[Warren Kiefer]

Very nice text book example, however, who are the implied parties to this contract and how do you know the contract was breached creating an estoppel?????????

The more I hear about this issue the more I am convinced that something else is going on and the wall placement is justified.

The faux excuses of the wall preventing people access amounts mostly to I want it my way or the highway rationalizations and it is creating unnecessary bad publicity for The Villages. In that I respectively ask those people who do not live in The Villages from fueling the fires

Again I believe the Developer is an excellent businessman and if anyone thinks he would be foolish enough to leave himself exposed, well there is this bridge in Brooklyn

Have you been or are you an employee of the Developer. It certainly appears so. How can you blindly support someone who will not answer the residents in a prompt manner. If there is a just reason, let the Developer come forth with the explanation. Those folks who were using the path deserve those answers, not providing answers is in my opinion telling those concerned residents to "go to hell"..

[red tail]

a lot of the people on here are the same people who chastised anyone shopping at walmart because of the 'buy in America' phase. I guess now its ok if you can get there.

[TVMayor]

What did Neighborhood Watch see?

Would people on the trolley find demonstrators interesting, ones located at the exits to the parking lots at the back of the sales offices?

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii199/The_Villages/trolley.jpg

[graciegirl]

Have you been or are you an employee of the Developer. It certainly appears so. How can you blindly support someone who will not answer the residents in a prompt manner. If there is a just reason, let the Developer come forth with the explanation. Those folks who were using the path deserve those answers, not providing answers is in my opinion telling those concerned residents to "go to hell"..

That statement makes me angry personally. The same has been said about me ...even going so far as to hear from a complete stranger when she met me for the first time that she heard from a woman golfer who posts on here that GARY MORSE bought and paid for my house.

Rubicon is a fair person and he says what he honestly feels. He doesn't work for the developer, I would bet my best hat on that. You have read him over the years, just as we have read posts from frequent posters.

Saying stuff like that isn't solving the problem.

The Morses have closed the wall. We can't vote. We knew this was a CDD when we bought. Apparently the Morses ARE throwing their weight around and that is NOT RIGHT. I have been a huge supporter of the developers but on this issue I don't agree at all.

But let's not start a war here. Let's deal with the facts how they stand.

[scres]

Street legals are NOT legal on roads with a high speed limit like 441/27. I don't think that will solve it. Am I right or wrong on this?

-----------------------------------
The previous poster referred to CROSSING 441/27 not DRIVING on 441/27. There is a difference! :)

[sdlutz70]

I have monitored the villages since I was in college. It is where I have always planned on retiring and am less than 1 year away. I tried to convince my mother 20 years ago to move their. Finally at 82 she did and the past 3 years have been the best of her life. Mr Schwartz would have never done this to his friends, He adopted Mr Morse and probably hoped he would continue to treat them as friends and not $ signs. I believe he is embarrassing his father who is probably rolling over in his grave.

[shcisamax]

I am rather surprised the Developer did not give notice of his intent to close the path. I do not know the legality of what he has done but I would have expected a small consideration for those who have made TV the place it is today. At minimum, he should have let people know...and not done it in the wink of an eye. I mean they certainly have enough information circulating about all the things they are building...

That said, people can scream and write graffitti and act like complete fools. OR they can get serious about this. TV Mayor has suggested some interesting tactics i.e. demonstrating outside sales offices, model centers, etc. What the Developer wants more than anything is to maintain the TV image of "Another Dream Comes True". Masses of humans with picket signs, a TV station and a newspaper doing a story on trouble in paradise, and the overall bad publicity might be enough to get him to explain himself and enter into some sort of productive conversation. But you have to be smart and get media onboard and you have to get an adequate turnout at whatever places you choose to take a stand.

Of course it would be nice to have a conversation with someone at the top to discuss why this has happened and what can be done about it to ensure those living on the Historic side are not deprived of their way of life.

[graciegirl]

-----------------------------------
The previous poster referred to CROSSING 441/27 not DRIVING on 441/27. There is a difference! :)

I didn't understand that. Good. That would be a way, but then there is the financial issue of car insurance on a street legal.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I didn�t want to comment until I finished reading all the posts (which took a while)� I am writing just to show my support to the folks over in the Historic Area. I am pretty surprised at the lack of empathy for our fellow Villagers. I would be very upset if all of a sudden a cart path that I used all the time was just blocked with no warning or explanation. Especially, where it also involves food shopping and doctor appointments! I think whoever is responsible is counting on letting some time go by and quietly sweeping it away. One of the reasons that I chose where I live is continued access to those necessities at a time when I may not be able to drive my car. I�m sure many of the people in the Historic area planned the same way.

While those of us int historic district certainly appreciate the support of those on the other our fellow Villagers on the other side of 27/441, everyone should be reminded that this also effect many people on that side as well. People from Del Mar, Spanish Springs, Chula Vista, Santiago and almost all of the villages north of 466 use this gate as well. Plenty of people from that side have used that gate to visit the medical facility, shop at Lowe's, Aldi or anyone of the 30 or so retail businesses on in that area by golf cart. They can no longer do so.

I'm sure that not many people come all the way from LSL or Malory or those villages south of 466 but many from the villages north of 466 do.

It's not just the historic district that being affected.

[jebartle]

Not on the road, just crossing roads with speed limits of 45 mph or less



Street legals are NOT legal on roads with a high speed limit like 441/27. I don't think that will solve it. Am I right or wrong on this?

[red tail]

Not on the road, just crossing roads with speed limits of 45 mph or less

this is bad info. a street legal can drive on roads posted 45 or less. they can cross highways like 441 not drive on them. some roads posted 45 are not legal, like rolling acres.

[JeffAVEWS]

Concrete Curtain, I love it! The spirit of Churchill must be smiling!
:beer3:

[champion6]

CAUTION... It is illegal to use the grassy area along 27/441.

Link to story: Deputies warning golf carts on renegade route bypassing ' Berlin Wall' (http://www.**************.com/deputies-warning-golf-carts-on-renegade-route-bypassing-berlin-wall/)

[njbchbum]

this is bad info. a street legal can drive on roads posted 45 or less. they can cross highways like 441 not drive on them. some roads posted 45 are not legal, like rolling acres.

cannot cross 441/27 unless and until permission to do so is first granted by the appropriate county and crossing point is deemed legal by fdot.

[scres]

this is bad info. a street legal can drive on roads posted 45 or less. they can cross highways like 441 not drive on them. some roads posted 45 are not legal, like rolling acres.

----------------------------------------
Street legal can drive on roads posted 35 or less.. not 45 or less.

[wendyquat]

Very sympathetic as we used the path but I'm not sure picketing and bringing bad publicity to TV would be wise for our property values!

If only proper notice had been given, I think we all would find it an easier pill to swallow! I, for one, have no patience with covertness and deceptive practices!

[champion6]

some roads posted 45 are not legal, like rolling acres.The posted speed on Rolling Acres is 35, but you are correct that LSVs are not permitted.

[red tail]

The posted speed on Rolling Acres is 35, but you are correct that LSVs are not permitted.

oops...I meant 35

[jebartle]

Why not offer a shuttle service for villagers without transportation to
Walmart, Aldi, Lowe's or Medical Center with periodic stops if the Morse's would like this dispute to go away....Just a suggestion, do not beat up on me, please!

[njbchbum]

Very sympathetic as we used the path but I'm not sure picketing and bringing bad publicity to TV would be wise for our property values!

If only proper notice had been given, I think we all would find it an easier pill to swallow! I, for one, have no patience with covertness and deceptive practices!

wendy - if not picketing, wendy, what do you suggest?

[njbchbum]

Why not offer a shuttle service for villagers without transportation to
Walmart, Aldi, Lowe's or Medical Center with periodic stops if the Morse's would like this dispute to go away....Just a suggestion, do not beat up on me, please!

the villages will not even offer trolley service from rec centers to town squares...i can't imagine them providing a shuttle service for residents to spend $$ outside of the bubble.

however, i do think it is an enterprising oppty for someone seeking to start a private venture in the area.

[buggyone]

CAUTION... It is illegal to use the grassy area along 27/441.

Link to story: Deputies warning golf carts on renegade route bypassing ' Berlin Wall' (http://www.**************.com/deputies-warning-golf-carts-on-renegade-route-bypassing-berlin-wall/)

I imagine that the time period for deputies giving warnings will end fairly soon and then they will start ticketing golf carts with big buck penalties. The squawking will really be loud after a few $165 or so tickets are given to violators.

[EdV]

...Mr Schwartz would have never done this to his friends, He adopted Mr Morse and probably hoped he would continue to treat them as friends and not $ signs. I believe he is embarrassing his father who is probably rolling over in his grave.

Harold Schwartz was Gary Morse's biological father. After Gary's mother remarried he changed his name to his stepfather's name, Morse.

[Virtual Geezer]

Well said. But what are you thinking could be next?

I believe he owns all the championship courses so look for greens fees to skyrocket. Also look for the cost of priority membership to jump to what many were paying up north just to play one course. And then again he may just convert ALL the CC to private membership. Want'a play and your are gonna pay one way or the other and it will be a lot more.

As the leases run out at the CC restaurants look for changes just like OB.

I don't have a dog in this fight as I don't own property in TV but it sure is giving me second thoughts about buying that's for sure.

VG

[golf2140]

For those who live in Sumter County. Call the Sumter Bus service, they will pick you up take you shopping. After shopping they will take you home. For Lake County, I'm not sure if you have such a service. You may want to look into it.

[Indydealmaker]

[QUOTE=Indydealmaker;724878]Consider that if that path was an official multimodal path, it would have been paved. A dirt path sure sounds temporary to me regardless of how long it had been that way. Obviously, cost would not have been a factor.

Maybe you need to check out the path between Orange Blossom and the Medical Center. It is a paved, lighted path and looks fairly permanent to me.

A previous post referred to the dirt path and I notice a dirt path used by carts that accesses Lowes from the south across a field.

[Bogie Shooter]

Harold Schwartz was Gary Morse's biological father. After Gary's mother remarried he changed his name to his stepfather's name, Morse.

Many keep saying Ed knows more than anybody about the Villages and he caught this..........not a villager.
Good one Ed!:eclipsee_gold_cup:

[Indydealmaker]

this is bad info. a street legal can drive on roads posted 45 or less. they can cross highways like 441 not drive on them. some roads posted 45 are not legal, like rolling acres.

A street legal in Florida cannot drive on a street if the speed limit is higher than 35 mph. It is actually extremely dangerous for a street legal which cannot exceed 25 mph to be on a road with cars legally travelling 10 mph faster and often illegally going 20 mph faster.

[jebartle]

Here is the Florida Statute for Lake Co. So I think I was right!

316.2122 Operation of a low-speed vehicle or mini truck on certain roadways.�The operation of a low-speed vehicle as defined in s. 320.01(42) or a mini truck as defined in s. 320.01(45) on any road is authorized with the following restrictions:
(1) A low-speed vehicle or mini truck may be operated only on streets where the posted speed limit is 35 miles per hour or less. This does not prohibit a low-speed vehicle or mini truck from crossing a road or street at an intersection where the road or street has a posted speed limit of more than 35 miles per hour.
(2) A low-speed vehicle must be equipped with headlamps, stop lamps, turn signal lamps, taillamps, reflex reflectors, parking brakes, rearview mirrors, windshields, seat belts, and vehicle identification numbers.
(3) A low-speed vehicle or mini truck must be registered and insured in accordance with s. 320.02 and titled pursuant to chapter 319.
(4) Any person operating a low-speed vehicle or mini truck must have in his or her possession a valid driver�s license.
(5) A county or municipality may prohibit the operation of low-speed vehicles or mini trucks on any road under its jurisdiction if the governing body of the county or municipality determines that such prohibition is necessary in the interest of safety.
(6) The Department of Transportation may prohibit the operation of low-speed vehicles or mini trucks on any road under its jurisdiction if it determines that such prohibition is necessary in the interest of safety.
History.�s. 1, ch. 99-163; s. 5, ch. 2009-183; s. 85, ch. 2012-174.













this is bad info. a street legal can drive on roads posted 45 or less. they can cross highways like 441 not drive on them. some roads posted 45 are not legal, like rolling acres.

[wendyquat]

wendy - if not picketing, wendy, what do you suggest?

See post #551!

How many people sold their homes using the "golf cart path access to WalMart, Lowes, etc" and now have to eat their words! Real estate is really a cut throat business with the best of circumstances! Stir it up with a little controversy and you may lose your "selling perks"!

I have no suggestion of how to handle it. Even I know that you can't legally use the highway right of way to go around!

[Bogie Shooter]

I believe he owns all the championship courses so look for greens fees to skyrocket. Also look for the cost of priority membership to jump to what many were paying up north just to play one course. And then again he may just convert ALL the CC to private membership. Want'a play and your are gonna pay one way or the other and it will be a lot more.

As the leases run out at the CC restaurants look for changes just like OB.

I don't have a dog in this fight as I don't own property in TV but it sure is giving me second thoughts about buying that's for sure.

VG

So why do you think all these price increases will happen??
This just more hyperbole.

[Indydealmaker]

I still say that when all is said and done, we are going to find that there was no malicious intent on the part of the developer. The culprit will be a lawyer somewhere, somehow being either litigious or liability-shy.

[Virtual Geezer]

So why do you think all these price increases will happen??
This just more hyperbole.

And you expect them to go down after this stunt? By closing the path the developer is forcing residents to use the Walmart on 466 which is located on his property and he gets a piece of the action for every dollar spent. He was getting nothing from those using the Walmart on 441.

Harold Schwartz would be rolling over in his grave over this stunt.

VG

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I still say that when all is said and done, we are going to find that there was no malicious intent on the part of the developer. The culprit will be a lawyer somewhere, somehow being either litigious or liability-shy.

Could very well be. But why didn't someone come out and explain what's going on before it was done. At least the people that work over there wouldn't have been stuck on the wrong side on Saturday morning and people like my wife would have had to come back home and ask me to drive her to work on Sunday. We could have made plans and there wouldn't be all of this concern about it.

I'm not saying that a lot of people wouldn't been disappointed and unhappy about it, but at least we would know why it was done and we might have had some time to make alternative plans.

[shcisamax]

Could very well be. But why didn't someone come out and explain what's going on before it was done. At least the people that work over there wouldn't have been stuck on the wrong side on Saturday morning and people like my wife would have had to come back home and ask me to drive her to work on Sunday. We could have made plans and there wouldn't be all of this concern about it.

I'm not saying that a lot of people wouldn't been disappointed and unhappy about it, but at least we would know why it was done and we might have had some time to make alternative plans.

Agreed. Communication always is a good thing..especially when it is two sided.

[graciegirl]

I believe he owns all the championship courses so look for greens fees to skyrocket. Also look for the cost of priority membership to jump to what many were paying up north just to play one course. And then again he may just convert ALL the CC to private membership. Want'a play and your are gonna pay one way or the other and it will be a lot more.

As the leases run out at the CC restaurants look for changes just like OB.

I don't have a dog in this fight as I don't own property in TV but it sure is giving me second thoughts about buying that's for sure.

VG

John.

What in all of this would make you come to those conclusions? He is doing very well the way things are.

He didn't make changes to Orange Blossom Restaurant or close it down. The lease ran out and the owners didn't renew. They asked for a complete renovation first. Morse didn't want to do it. Guess he thought he could rent it to someone else. There had been complaints on this forum about the cleanliness at Orange Blossom but I don't know how true they were.

The championship golf is fairly expensive...not cheap, not expensive.

You could think a lot of things but why now would this issue make you change your mind?

I sure would hate it if you didn't move here. I know how much you look forward to renting every year.

[chuckinca]

Harold Schwartz would be rolling over in his grave over this stunt.

VG


He's not in a grave - believe his ashes are in the statue of him in Spanish Springs square.

[jlaryh33]

Today I followed cart tracks through the grass, and along side US 441 N. I did pass a Sheriff's Department sign (which I sware was blank/dark/not lighted until Bella Cruz Dr, where I found a Sumter County Sheriff's Deputy on a motocycle waiting for me with lights flashing. He stated he had been stationed by his office to prevent exactly what I had just done. I did receive a warning ticket. I presume both the sheriff's sign and the patrolman's pay was at tax payer's expence in behalf of Mr Morse or the Villages.

This path has been open (and specifically inviting) to golf carts in the Villages for at least 15 years, and possibly longer. I wonder if challenged can The Villages legally close this gate through the wall.

I wonder what the cheap motivation Mr. Morse has for closing this important access to doctor's offfices, at least one Emergency Care office in the Villages Hospital system accessible to golf carts.

I am sure he has his wallet mostly on his feable mind.

[janmcn]

John.

What in all of this would make you come to those conclusions? He is doing very well the way things are.

He didn't make changes to Orange Blossom Restaurant or close it down. The lease ran out and the owners didn't renew. They asked for a complete renovation first. Morse didn't want to do it. Guess he thought he could rent it to someone else. There had been complaints on this forum about the cleanliness at Orange Blossom but I don't know how true they were.

The championship golf is fairly expensive...not cheap, not expensive.

You could think a lot of things but why now would this issue make you change your mind?

I sure would hate it if you didn't move here. I know how much you look forward to renting every year.


The story of Orange Blossom Restaurant is the exact same story we heard about the Santiago Restaurant. What was that five years ago, maybe? It's the exact same story we heard about the Chula Vista Restaurant in the mid-2000's. It's the exact same story we heard about the Silver Lake Restaurant in the early 2000's.

After a while of hearing the same story over and over, it starts to sound like a bunch of hooey. This is why I, for one, am not optimistic that the Orange Blossom Restaurant will ever reopen. I hope I'm wrong.

[chuckinca]

[quote=scres;724974]

A previous post referred to the dirt path and I notice a dirt path used by carts that accesses Lowes from the south across a field.


That's not where the illegal wall blocking access to public roads was erected.

The current dirt path, not the dirt path (now closed) on Mr Brown's property bypassing the construction of the new assisted living facility that probably got Mr Morse in a tizzy, is at the north side of the new paved path provided by the new assisted living facility (thank you and I will wave as I go by) running north about 200 yards to the street at the south side of Lowe's and the new Chase Bank (maybe Mr Morse doesn't like the new Chase Bank???). I would think Mr Brown probably owns that property and is kind enough to allow cart access.

.

[ROCKETMAN]

I hear all kinds of views and many from anonymous posters and many from new posters and many from people that most of us have read over some time and have an idea who they are and what kind of folks they are.

I wish that there was some way to know when people log in with inflammatory posts particularly that the rest of us knew if they lived here, if they had a dog in the fight to defame this whole area and the developer for some reason productive to them and their money or if they opposed the developer because he is rich or because they don't agree with his financial support of certain things we aren't allowed to mention.

It seems that the residents of the historic area have more reason, the most reasons to be upset terribly by the change. I wish that the rest of us knew how many do not own cars or cannot drive cars. Is it more than ten people? Is it more than twenty people? Is there a way that can be changed or helped?

I know that I, like many of my age treasure being independent and getting where I need to go myself, without the rigamarole of waiting for others to come pick me up or asking for charity. I see those as most affected. It isn't insurmountable but it isn't going to be easy shifting doctors or hiring a cab or getting a car to take you to work. There are other restaurants and Lowes isn't someplace most of us need to get to frequently. There is a service that will shop for you, I know, I know we like to shop for ourselves.

I am NOT trying to minimize but only trying to do what I have always done for myself when a roadblock is thrown up to my plans. This time unfortunately it is a real roadblock. Acess the damage and try to make new plans.

It is a big problem for those people but just how many people are involved that only have golf cart transportation that could not change that mode? Is it such an issue that they would feel it necessary to move? Does it affect more home owners than renters? Although I don't think that matters now that I have typed it.

I think that most of the rest of us have watched and hoped that the gate would be reopened and the way that you who live in the three villages affected could go back to the way things were.

Perhaps the town of Lady Lake could be persuaded to pave the area of frontage if it is public property?

We may never know the real reason why the wall was put up. I personally think that trying to change it is futile. We do not VOTE in a CDD.

Frustration breeds anger, but is anger productive? I was hoping to hear some good reason why the wall was put up. I think it well may be that the property owner of the area next door could claim that their place is golf cart accessible to The Villages and that is ****ing off the Morses.

You would be surprised at how many people use that path who don't live on the historic side. I live 1 block from seabreeze but love the ride over and stop in Spanish springs for a ice cream on the way. As for people who live on the historic side it is more of an inconvenience than you think. To say just go some other place and shop is not the point. Some of the seniors over there are just more comfortable driving their golf cart over than driving their cars on 441. With no explanation the developer is making himself look greedy try to influence people to shop at his malls.

[Arctic Fox]

Let us assume that the closure has been forced upon the developer for whatever reason - liability risk, request from third party, whatever.

How would a good businessman handle this situation?

(A) He could advise the 70,000 people in his development of the closure well ahead of time, via notices and articles in his daily newspaper, saying how sorry he is that many people will be inconvenienced; explaining why it has to happen, and assuring us that he is looking for a solution so that we will not be inconvenienced for too long.

or

(B) He could send in contractors at 6 am on a Saturday morning to build the wall without any prior notice, refuse his employees and his newspaper permission to say anything about it and ensure that, even three days after the wall goes up, no one has any real information as to why it happened.

I'm sorry, but (B) is not the correct answer, so either the developer is losing it as a businessman or the closure wasn't forced upon him.

[NotGolfer]

I didn't read thru the 57 pages of comments on this thread...that said...do we "know for sure" that this was done by the developer?? Could it have been someone else who did it. Generally speaking, whenever a closure is being made (such as 2 lanes on the bridge or golf-cart lanes) there is a post and announcement made by T.V. I would suspect that *if* in fact the developer did this re: the wall, the same would have also happened.

I'm not here to defend or make any other comments re: this. I get it, regarding how it's affecting folks.

[Warren Kiefer]

I hear all kinds of views and many from anonymous posters and many from new posters and many from people that most of us have read over some time and have an idea who they are and what kind of folks they are.

I wish that there was some way to know when people log in with inflammatory posts particularly that the rest of us knew if they lived here, if they had a dog in the fight to defame this whole area and the developer for some reason productive to them and their money or if they opposed the developer because he is rich or because they don't agree with his financial support of certain things we aren't allowed to mention.

It seems that the residents of the historic area have more reason, the most reasons to be upset terribly by the change. I wish that the rest of us knew how many do not own cars or cannot drive cars. Is it more than ten people? Is it more than twenty people? Is there a way that can be changed or helped?

I know that I, like many of my age treasure being independent and getting where I need to go myself, without the rigamarole of waiting for others to come pick me up or asking for charity. I see those as most affected. It isn't insurmountable but it isn't going to be easy shifting doctors or hiring a cab or getting a car to take you to work. There are other restaurants and Lowes isn't someplace most of us need to get to frequently. There is a service that will shop for you, I know, I know we like to shop for ourselves.

I am NOT trying to minimize but only trying to do what I have always done for myself when a roadblock is thrown up to my plans. This time unfortunately it is a real roadblock. Acess the damage and try to make new plans.

It is a big problem for those people but just how many people are involved that only have golf cart transportation that could not change that mode? Is it such an issue that they would feel it necessary to move? Does it affect more home owners than renters? Although I don't think that matters now that I have typed it.

I think that most of the rest of us have watched and hoped that the gate would be reopened and the way that you who live in the three villages affected could go back to the way things were.

Perhaps the town of Lady Lake could be persuaded to pave the area of frontage if it is public property?

We may never know the real reason why the wall was put up. I personally think that trying to change it is futile. We do not VOTE in a CDD.

Frustration breeds anger, but is anger productive? I was hoping to hear some good reason why the wall was put up. I think it well may be that the property owner of the area next door could claim that their place is golf cart accessible to The Villages and that is ****ing off the Morses.

WRONG !!! OF COURSE AFTER A DESIGNATED TIME HAS PASSED, RESIDENTS ELECT THEIR CDD REPS. We do not have a vote in the VCCDD ( The Spanish Springs Area) and probably never will since no residents live in that district and the landowner is the developer. What is fueling this fight is simple. It is the Developer not coming forth to answer the residents questions.

[ttown]

Excellent Arctic fox!

[johnsgt]

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/members/johnsgt-34631/albums/villagesgate-scandal-867/

[Warren Kiefer]

That statement makes me angry personally. The same has been said about me ...even going so far as to hear from a complete stranger when she met me for the first time that she heard from a woman golfer who posts on here that GARY MORSE bought and paid for my house.

Rubicon is a fair person and he says what he honestly feels. He doesn't work for the developer, I would bet my best hat on that. You have read him over the years, just as we have read posts from frequent posters.

Saying stuff like that isn't solving the problem.

The Morses have closed the wall. We can't vote. We knew this was a CDD when we bought. Apparently the Morses ARE throwing their weight around and that is NOT RIGHT. I have been a huge supporter of the developers but on this issue I don't agree at all.

But let's not start a war here. Let's deal with the facts how they stand.

I would say the war has already started and the cause, a unexplained wall ending a access that many residents have enjoyed for some time. Lets hear the explanation !! I once was an employee of the developer, I saw too many people who were fired by finding their belongings set outside the entry door when they arrived at work. Never, even when asked were they given an explanation why they were fired. Try to get something published in the Daily Sun that reflects badly on the Developer or is anti Republican. Surely you know that employees are not free to express themselves regarding Developer issues. My message here? The Developer has a habit of doing things that affect the residents and feels he owes no one an explanation. Many people give all the credit to the Developer for the creation of the Villages, it is my position that if it were not for the Residents, Mr. Morse would own a lot of pasture ground.

[Tom Grooms]

Today I followed cart tracks through the grass, and along side US 441 N....

I would like to personally thank you for trespassing on the beautifully manicured grass. Those marks in the lawn look soooooo wonderful while traveling down 441. Please, feel free to drive your vehicle wherever and whenever you want. Thanks again for being such an outstanding Villager.

[downeaster]

And you expect them to go down after this stunt? By closing the path the developer is forcing residents to use the Walmart on 466 which is located on his property and he gets a piece of the action for every dollar spent. He was getting nothing from those using the Walmart on 441.

Harold Schwartz would be rolling over in his grave over this stunt.

VG

Walmart owns that property according to the tax records on line.

OWNER INFO Property Card
Name WALMART PROP TAX DEPT
Site 4085 WEDGEWOOD LN
Mail PO BOX 8050 BENTONVILLE, AR 72712

[Tom Grooms]

You honestly don't believe that Walmart pays a percentage of sales to The Villages or the Morses, do you?

[Megardn]

Doesn't make any sense as why they (?) closed it. I would have thought all concerned would like the business.

[wendyquat]

I'll post this again, I still think there is easement there! This should by fodder for the POA's lawyers.
Quoted from Wikipedia:

Easement by estoppel

When a property owner misrepresents the existence of an easement while selling a property and does not include an express easement in the deed to the buyer, the court may step in and create an easement. Easements by estoppel generally look to any promises not made in writing, any money spent by the benefiting party in reliance on the representations of the burdened party. If the court finds that the buyer acted in good faith and relied on the seller's promises, the court will create an easement by estoppel.

For example: Ray sells land to Joe on the promise that Joe can use Ray's driveway and bridge to the main road at anytime, but Ray does not include the easement in the deed to the land. Joe, deciding that the land is now worth the price, builds a house and connects a garage to Ray's driveway. If Ray (or his successors) later decides to gate off the driveway and prevents Joe (or Joe's successors) from accessing the driveway, a court would likely find an easement by estoppel.

Because Joe purchased the land assuming that there would be access to the bridge and the driveway and Joe then paid for a house and a connection, Joe can be said to rely on Ray's promise of an easement. Ray materially misrepresented the facts to Joe. In order to preserve equity, the court will likely find an easement by estoppel.

On the other hand, if Ray had offered access to the bridge and driveway after selling Joe the land, there may not be an easement by estoppel. In this instance, it is merely inconvenient if Ray revokes access to the driveway. Joe did not purchase the land and build the house in reliance on access to the driveway and bridge. Joe will need to find a separate theory to justify an easement.

Problem here is IF there were a possibility of an easement you'd have to hire a lawyer and go to court and spend lots of money and time getting this to be enforced!

[gomoho]

I'm thinking some things are more important than manicured grass and bigger than ourselves. Just sayin.

[Boudicca]

Are there any answers to the construction of the wall yet? who, what, why and when?

[graciegirl]

The story of Orange Blossom Restaurant is the exact same story we heard about the Santiago Restaurant. What was that five years ago, maybe? It's the exact same story we heard about the Chula Vista Restaurant in the mid-2000's. It's the exact same story we heard about the Silver Lake Restaurant in the early 2000's.

After a while of hearing the same story over and over, it starts to sound like a bunch of hooey. This is why I, for one, am not optimistic that the Orange Blossom Restaurant will ever reopen. I hope I'm wrong.

Jan. Do you think the Morses WANTED those restaurants closed???? How would that help them?

The Morses own those empty restaurants and have to pay taxes and upkeep on them if they are not rented to someone. It doesn't seem like it would profit The Morses if they stayed empty. The Morses really made a huge mistake when they closed that opening, but I refuse to stand here and listen to a lot of hooey from people who don't like big business and that is what I am hearing from the same people. Gary Morse was wrong. I think he probably did it so that the property next door could NOT advertise golf cart access. I don't know. I don't know the Morses any better than anyone else. But this kind of slinging um...stuff isn't helping the problem AT ALL.

[graciegirl]

Let us assume that the closure has been forced upon the developer for whatever reason - liability risk, request from third party, whatever.

How would a good businessman handle this situation?

(A) He could advise the 70,000 people in his development of the closure well ahead of time, via notices and articles in his daily newspaper, saying how sorry he is that many people will be inconvenienced; explaining why it has to happen, and assuring us that he is looking for a solution so that we will not be inconvenienced for too long.

or

(B) He could send in contractors at 6 am on a Saturday morning to build the wall without any prior notice, refuse his employees and his newspaper permission to say anything about it and ensure that, even three days after the wall goes up, no one has any real information as to why it happened.

I'm sorry, but (B) is not the correct answer, so either the developer is losing it as a businessman or the closure wasn't forced upon him.

I think you must be right. Now what will everyone do about it? There are choices but none of them are good. I don't see ANYTHING changing because we can't vote.

[Megardn]

Looks like the Villages Tri County Medical (the new nursing home) owns that property according to Sumter County property appraiser and it's right on the county border line.
You can see it on the GIS map on the appraiser site.

[EdV]

After carefully examining bkcummingham1’s photo (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/bkcunningham1/media/5ff5a50c-6d6f-40c0-9062-df048db8a490_zpsc26c1a88.jpg.html) and the Lady Lake and Sumter property records, there is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that the wall is on the property owned by Gary Morse’s company.

The key to the puzzle is the golf cart roundabout made of pavers that is on the Tri-County Medical property. In the picture taken from the Orange Blossom side we do not see the pavers. If the wall had been put in by Tri-County Medical, the picture would have shown most if not all of the roundabout.

In the meantime, I’ve started a new thread with a potential workaround. Have a look see (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/workaround-morses-concrete-curtain-85219/) if you are impacted by the wall.

[rubicon]

Have you been or are you an employee of the Developer. It certainly appears so. How can you blindly support someone who will not answer the residents in a prompt manner. If there is a just reason, let the Developer come forth with the explanation. Those folks who were using the path deserve those answers, not providing answers is in my opinion telling those concerned residents to "go to hell"..

Warren Kiefer: I have been called a lot of things in my life but an employee of the Developer has not been one of them. If you have read any of my previous 4,000 plus posts you would have recognized that I do not view the Developer from a personal perspective keeping everything business.

And I am not blind to anything. I explained some posts ago that the Developer moved the Fitness Center without advanced notice leaving people without an indoor pool. they along with the POA petitioned but lost their plea.

I am no going against villagers. I am simply explaining that the Developer knows exactly what he is doing and why. He is not in the habit of explaining his decisions and will only relent when he sees it fits his purposes.

Essentially what I am trying to explain is that all this commotion about the wall by villagers well is for naught and villagers may as well be (forget the pun) banging their heads against a wall.

Some of the people complaining live elsewhere and I suspect their complaints are self serving in that it probably prevents them for using our privately financed cart pathways.

When we visit their developments (Spruce Creek, Stone Crest, etc) we are required to drive our cars to their security gates and check in. do we not deserve the same courtesy ?

so for this reason I am glad about the building of this wall and hope that any access to our pathway from the public be blocked.

If outsiders are using an LSV then all they need for the most part are our public roads. In fact since LSV's can exceed 19.9 mph they ought not be allowed on our cart paths. so how do you see my view of protecting our cart paths being against villagers

Personal Bes Regards:

[champion6]

Looks like the Villages Tri County Medical (the new nursing home) owns that property according to Sumter County property appraiser and it's right on the county border line.
You can see it on the GIS map on the appraiser site.Wait!!! The Villages Tricounty Medical is The Villages Regional Hospital, which includes TVRH East Campus. It is not "the new nursing home," which is actually HarborChase Assisted Living.

[VICAR OF DIBLEY]

Hello,

Not to sure how many people received this - we got this from the Village Van Service -


'Take Down The Wall' chanted in rally over 'Berlin Wall' put up over weekend

If you can not click on it to open it, please do a copy and paste.

[VICAR OF DIBLEY]

I just did a Google search, and hopefully you will no have to do a copy and paste.

'Take Down the Wall' protest - **************

[red tail]

Wait!!! The Villages Tricounty Medical is The Villages Regional Hospital, which includes TVRH East Campus. It is not "the new nursing home," which is actually HarborChase Assisted Living.

who's on first?

[Bogie Shooter]

I just did a Google search, and hopefully you will no have to do a copy and paste.

'Take Down the Wall' protest - **************

Here is the link.
Petitioners hope to remove 'Berlin Wall,' which many have called 'unAmerican' - ************** (http://www.**************.com/berlin-wall-irks-golf-cart-drivers-on-historic-side/?utm_source=Copy+of+Historic+Side+%28Wall%29&utm_campaign=Historic+Section+Wall&utm_medium=email)

[Megardn]

Wait!!! The Villages Tricounty Medical is The Villages Regional Hospital, which includes TVRH East Campus. It is not "the new nursing home," which is actually HarborChase Assisted Living.

I just assumed it was the NEW assisted home (I know abt assuming, lol) but it is owned by Tri County Medical. Check it out.

[njbchbum]

Looks like the Villages Tri County Medical (the new nursing home) owns that property according to Sumter County property appraiser and it's right on the county border line.
You can see it on the GIS map on the appraiser site.

megardn - i think you might need to read thru the entire thread where the property lines, ownership, lack of building permits, etc have already been discussed and resolved...then jump back in with any suggestions you might have.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Sales of LSV's (Street Legals) or they could allow (as so many towns) crossing of roads with speed limits of 45 MPH or less...I've always said if pedestrians, bicycles and handicap scooters can cross, why not golf carts?????

LSVs are allowed to cross roads with speed limits of 45mph. If you are on Avenida Central you can cross 27/441 and proceed onto Griffin.

The problem is that to drive an LSV, you need a drivers license just like a car. That does not help the people who do not or cannot drive for one reason or another.

There is also the cost of insuring and registering and LSV which I understand is between $600 and $1000 along with improvements that need to be made to existing golf carts such as a sold windshield, seat belts and other necessary equipment in order to drive on streets where golf carts are not allowed.

LSVs are not the answer to this problem.

[Megardn]

megardn - i think you might need to read thru the entire thread where the property lines, ownership, lack of building permits, etc have already been discussed and resolved...then jump back in with any suggestions you might have.

Well forgive me for saying anything.

[Mikeod]

Apologies if this has been posted before. I have read the entire thread and don't recall seeing this.

If I understand it correctly, the crux of the IRS dispute is whether the central districts qualify as a political entity, i.e., they answer to the residents and are not controlled by the developer. Since the area involved is controlled by the VCCDD, does this unilateral action without prior notice not essentially prove the IRS right?

However, could we win the battle over the wall, but lose the war vis-a-vis the IRS?

[Bogie Shooter]

Apologies if this has been posted before. I have read the entire thread and don't recall seeing this.

If I understand it correctly, the crux of the IRS dispute is whether the central districts qualify as a political entity, i.e., they answer to the residents and are not controlled by the developer. Since the area involved is controlled by the VCCDD, does this unilateral action without prior notice not essentially prove the IRS right?

However, could we win the battle over the wall, but lose the war vis-a-vis the IRS?

Not controlled by VCDD.

[njbchbum]

Well forgive me for saying anything.

don't take it that way, megardn. i was just making a suggestion. many have been made and listed but we never refuse a new one. don't run away - just come up with some new stuff.

[EdV]

Apologies if this has been posted before. I have read the entire thread and don't recall seeing this.

If I understand it correctly, the crux of the IRS dispute is whether the central districts qualify as a political entity, i.e., they answer to the residents and are not controlled by the developer. Since the area involved is controlled by the VCCDD, does this unilateral action without prior notice not essentially prove the IRS right?

However, could we win the battle over the wall, but lose the war vis-a-vis the IRS?

Good question Mike.

The key is to understand that Morse owns that little plot of land independently just like you or I could. As such, he can put up a fence in his back yard just as we could if we owned that property instead of him.

That too is why the VCCDD and any TV employees have been told to simply say they know nothing about it and it is on private property. Which is technically correct.

Of course, the fact that he clearly enhanced the property and allowed it to be used as paved and lighted golf cart path and that homes were sold by his various holding companies with this in place, may have many other legal ramifications. To be determined.

[kagney123]

Wow Lots of great information but still no answer as to why or who..we know what and when Saturday 3AM LOL

Gonna ask my "MLS" realtor, who lives on the historic side the reason for the wall......
I'll post whatever I find out....

[orgunvs]

Spent over 1 hr at THE WALL today. I only stopped by to sign the petition but ended up helping out. Way too hot out. I met MANY of the local residents that are directly effected by the closer. Many very sad stories and they are very frightened over the closer. These are not whiners but original residents that not longer can drive a car or afford car insurance. One lady had tears in her eyes because she had a Dr.s appointment and couldn't get through. Yes. She could have called a taxi if she knew about the closer but she was going to be late and this really upset her. I met at least 15 people that had no car. When you are elderly just getting through the day is hard without this extreme stress. Had they known ahead of time, they could have changed their banks and their Dr.s. They feel betrayed and I don't blame them. This is a life changing problem for them. We all need to help.

[Justjac]

I would suggest a group of Demonstrators show up Friday, August 16th 3pm to 5pm in the area of Gilchrist Rec Center on Pinellas PL &Dafoe Ter to be viewed by the guest of the new Designer Model Home Center. I will be in attendance at the center to view the reaction.

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii199/The_Villages/Group_zpsc69b5dab.jpg
TV Mayor...I like your way of thinking.

I would also suggest that along with pickets, a good old-fashioned boycott of Village businesses might cause some to realize that "little people" do have strength in numbers.... For just one week, go outside the confines of your village and spend your money elsewhere...

I know this "Boycott" suggestion will draw some nasty responses... but having read all 500+ posts on this golf-cart crossing... my money won't be spent in the Villages until some respect is shown to its residents.

Stumpknockers here I come! Aldi's, Leesburg or Belleville for groceries...Ocala for entertainment.... there is life beyond the Villages.

[Russ_Boston]

I'm sure the whole 'great wall' issue has to do with liability somewhere. Someone must have gotten sued (or a suit had been threatened) so Morse had no choice but to block the 'invite' (the path leading to the wall) onto someone else's property. It would be the same for any property owner over there. The core problem is always money somehow.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Winston, not sure what documents you were looking at but you need to use the Lake and Sumter on-line property appraiser GIS system.

The "Concrete Curtain" is along the border between the two counties. I just can't tell which one and whether it's on Morse's plot or the medical center's plot.

I meant doctors, when I said doc. The medical center, Lowes and Aldi are all listed in the phone book and online as having addresses in Lady Lake.

Look at the Google Earth photo that I posted.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I'm sure the whole 'great wall' issue has to do with liability somewhere. Someone must have gotten sued (or a suit had been threatened) so Morse had no choice but to block the 'invite' (the path leading to the wall) onto someone else's property. It would be the same for any property owner over there. The core problem is always money somehow.

That could very well be, but as has been brought up many times in this thread, the residents could have some warning and and explanation. If that is the case, I would understand. I would be disappointed and unhappy, but I would understand and accept that it.

But, even now, four days after the event with people very upset, demonstrations taking place, media stories and petitions being signed whoever put up the wall still hasn't explained it.

Like I said either explain what is going on or take it down.

[bkcunningham1]

I agree. We are adults. It would be nice to be treated with enough respect to have been warned about the closure. Even if it was just something in the Daily Sun and on the radio saying it was being closed permanently with an explanation. We don't have to agree with the reason, or even like it. But it would have been nice (and would be nice now after the fact) if Mr. Morse had, at the very least, treated the residents of this community with enough dignity and respect to tell us what is going on. That isn't asking too much.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Winston, not sure what documents you were looking at but you need to use the Lake and Sumter on-line property appraiser GIS system.

The "Concrete Curtain" is along the border between the two counties. I just can't tell which one and whether it's on Morse's plot or the medical center's plot.

I looked at the online county maps and it would appear as you say that the wall is very close to the county line. I am perplex as to why those businesses that I mention have addresses in Lady Lake.

[Russ_Boston]

That could very well be, but as has been brought up many times in this thread, the residents could have some warning and and explanation. If that is the case, I would understand. I would be disappointed and unhappy, but I would understand and accept that it.

But, even now, four days after the event with people very upset, demonstrations taking place, media stories and petitions being signed whoever put up the wall still hasn't explained it.

Like I said either explain what is going on or take it down.

I never put much stock in the old "It's not that I got fired - it was the say they did it" theory. The bottom line is that you're out of work and you're very mad about it. Or in this case you run into a wall and have to find a way around it. The one thing we know is that they didn't spend money and time to put it up for no reason. The lands (most of them) on the other side of the wall don't belong to the TV development.

What if I wanted to make a path from Colony plaza over the Burke's BBQ only a few parcels away? Can't be done without going onto private property. Why would this Historic Path to private property be any different? By having that little outlet (where the wall is) the TV developer is basically saying "I invite all of you to bring your cart onto private property past our boundaries". Liability waiting to happen and I'll be that the issue is either future liability, or a current law suit for liability, or possible money grab by one of the private parties and Morse won't pay. You KNOW it's money.

[bkcunningham1]

I never put much stock in the old "It's not that I got fired - it was the say they did it" theory. The bottom line is that you're out of work and you're very mad about it. Or in this case you run into a wall and have to find a way around it.

Your example would work and make sense if someone got fired without any explanation. How would you feel if you went into the hospital and they said you didn't have a job and everyone who you spoke with said they didn't know anything about it? How would you feel if they refused to give you any explanation? I imagine you'd want, at the very least, an explanation. It just adds insult to injury to not be given the time of day and treated as something insignificant.

[Rickg]

Let us assume that the closure has been forced upon the developer for whatever reason - liability risk, request from third party, whatever.

How would a good businessman handle this situation?

(A) He could advise the 70,000 people in his development of the closure well ahead of time, via notices and articles in his daily newspaper, saying how sorry he is that many people will be inconvenienced; explaining why it has to happen, and assuring us that he is looking for a solution so that we will not be inconvenienced for too long.

or

(B) He could send in contractors at 6 am on a Saturday morning to build the wall without any prior notice, refuse his employees and his newspaper permission to say anything about it and ensure that, even three days after the wall goes up, no one has any real information as to why it happened.

I'm sorry, but (B) is not the correct answer, so either the developer is losing it as a businessman or the closure wasn't forced upon him.

I agree. Very bad public relations not to Address this, unless there is NO good reason for the closure.

[bkcunningham1]

I looked at the online county maps and it would appear as you say that the wall is very close to the county line. I am perplex as to why those businesses that I mention have addresses in Lady Lake.

This shows the boundaries of the 32159 zip code which includes Lady Lake. Zip Code Finder and Boundary Map. (http://maps.huge.info/zip.htm)

[Halibut]

How would you feel if you went into the hospital and they said you didn't have a job and everyone who you spoke with said they didn't know anything about it? How would you feel if they refused to give you any explanation? I imagine you'd want, at the very least, an explanation.

And when you tried to get to the HR Dept. for an answer, the corridor was blocked. So you went a different way and got permission from someone to let you in via their door, but the next day that door had also been blocked. Then you tried to get access through an unlocked window, but fellow employees hissed at you and called you names for leaving bootprints in their flowerbeds, and the police gave you a warning citation. Shame on you! Why do you think you deserve an answer! NO ONE PROMISED YOU A JOB. Ask a neighbor to drive you around and look for another one. Too bad, so sad.

[buggyone]

Well, from all the negative feelings about The Villages, it looks as though the real estate agents will be having a field day in getting new listings.

[merled]

Driving on Paradise Drive in the Historic Side this afternoon, we noticed signs and gates at the entrance to the path that goes all the way to Lowe's and Walmart along st. Rt. 441. The sign says: Construction Alert! This path will be closed at 6 a.m. Saturday August 10.

The gates will block entry from Paradise to the path that TV maintains which has pavers and lights. It goes into the parking lot for several medical offices before going through the recently paved path by the new assisted living facility and onto Lowe's.

Curious as to what was going on, I called someone I know who works for the VCDD and was told that the Villages Hospital owns the property and the powers-that-be are closing access to golf carts to that area permanently. Why? I don't know.

I am very upset and confused. Does anyone know anything more about this? Not only will it prevent Villagers from going by cart to many, many businesses and doctors' offices, it will prevent people in the other neighboring developments from coming into TV on their golf carts.

Why?

closing1_zps0cf58468.jpg Photo by bkcunningham1 | Photobucket (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/bkcunningham1/media/closing1_zps0cf58468.jpg.html)
Many carts are crossing illegally 441 and going to get hurt or killed. The Villages seems to be getting worse rather than better as a friendly home town! Sorry but true. To make matters worse we the owners are not given rime or reason and possible action plans. Very Sad indeed.

[vitacr]

I was there at 4pm today & signed a petition that is going around. Heard it has something to do with a feud between Mr. a the new assisted living building owner....................??????? Someone wrote graffiti on it "Mr Morse take down this wall" - it was painted over when found the next day. Look on Facebook - The Villages Book has it posted. I'm sure we'll hear a lot more on this - it affects too many people including Stonecrest folks.

[skip0358]

I'm not sticking up for anyone. Maybe the Moorse Family didn't put the wall up, so IF he didn't put it up he can't take it down or comment on it. Why don't you try and contact Gary Lester he seems to be the go to guy !!

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I never put much stock in the old "It's not that I got fired - it was the say they did it" theory. The bottom line is that you're out of work and you're very mad about it. Or in this case you run into a wall and have to find a way around it. The one thing we know is that they didn't spend money and time to put it up for no reason. The lands (most of them) on the other side of the wall don't belong to the TV development.

What if I wanted to make a path from Colony plaza over the Burke's BBQ only a few parcels away? Can't be done without going onto private property. Why would this Historic Path to private property be any different? By having that little outlet (where the wall is) the TV developer is basically saying "I invite all of you to bring your cart onto private property past our boundaries". Liability waiting to happen and I'll be that the issue is either future liability, or a current law suit for liability, or possible money grab by one of the private parties and Morse won't pay. You KNOW it's money.

Right, so if you show up for work one morning and all of your stuff is out on the sidewalk and when you go inside a receptionist says, "You don't work here anymore and I'm not allowed to say anything else" and you are not allowed to talk to any of your former superiors, you would feel exactly the same as if they sat you down and said, "We're very sorry, but the company is not doing well and we just can't afford to keep you here. (Or even, I'm sorry, but you're doing a terrible job and we are letting you go) Good luck in the future. You would feel exactly the same in those two situations? Is that what you're saying? If you were fired, you wouldn't feel that you were owed an explanation why?

That gate has been there, from what I now understand, for over twenty years. People have used it every day. People have made important life decisions based on that gate being there. And now, with no explanation it's just closed.

Like I said, if there is a good reason for it, I would be very disappointed and unhappy, but at least I would be able to understand.

Also the fact that it was done in this way and that no one from the Villages will give and explanation and have stated that they were told to say nothing by their superiors sounds at the very least a bit suspicious. If it were done for a good reason, it would have been made public. Sometimes silence speaks volumes.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I'm not sticking up for anyone. Maybe the Moorse Family didn't put the wall up, so IF he didn't put it up he can't take it down or comment on it. Why don't you try and contact Gary Lester he seems to be the go to guy !!

If he didn't put it up, he can't comment on it? He couldn't say, "I didn't put it up"? If he knows who did put it up, he couldn't say so?

The people at the assisted living facility posted on this very forum that they didn't put it up but they are looking into it.

[N44125]

I was there at 4pm today & signed a petition that is going around. Heard it has something to do with a feud between Mr. a the new assisted living building owner....................??????? Someone wrote graffiti on it "Mr Morse take down this wall" - it was painted over when found the next day. Look on Facebook - The Villages Book has it posted. I'm sure we'll hear a lot more on this - it affects too many people including Stonecrest folks.
Can you verify that the graffiti was indeed painted over? I tried going to FaceBook but that didn't work. Did TV paint it over or did the neighbors?

Although I am against the wall and feel that it was wrong and poorly / not communicated properly....I thought that the graffiti was 'childish' and not benefitting the cause.

Hopefully we'll gat an answer or resolve shortly........

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Well, from all the negative feelings about The Villages, it looks as though the real estate agents will be having a field day in getting new listings.

The sad thing is that the developer wouldn't be affected by that at all. In fact the more of that leave the more homes his sales agency sells and the more commission they make.

[njbchbum]

snipped
By having that little outlet (where the wall is) the TV developer is basically saying "I invite all of you to bring your cart onto private property past our boundaries". Liability waiting to happen and I'll be that the issue is either future liability, or a current law suit for liability, or possible money grab by one of the private parties and Morse won't pay. You KNOW it's money.

given that...i wonder why it took 20+ years to cancel the invitation.

[buggyone]

The sad thing is that the developer wouldn't be affected by that at all. In fact the more of that leave the more homes his sales agency sells and the more commission they make.

Well, I would just think that if there are so many unhappy residents and they are so angry at the tactics of the Developer that they would not want to stay in such a community. I am sure Stonecrest, Spruce Creek, or Plantation would be to their liking - and they could get more home for their money after selling and making a profit.

[Steve9930]

Could very well be. But why didn't someone come out and explain what's going on before it was done. At least the people that work over there wouldn't have been stuck on the wrong side on Saturday morning and people like my wife would have had to come back home and ask me to drive her to work on Sunday. We could have made plans and there wouldn't be all of this concern about it.

I'm not saying that a lot of people wouldn't been disappointed and unhappy about it, but at least we would know why it was done and we might have had some time to make alternative plans.

Here is why I believe it was done as it was done. Anyone with half a brain would know there would be a large out cry if they knew in advance the path would be closed. There is enough history on the path that there is a good legal case for not allowing the path to be closed under Florida Law. It would have been very easy to get an injunction against closing the path by a judge until the case worked its way through the court. All the time the path would remain open. Now close it immediately, get no permit to do so, and the path will remain closed while the whole thing works it way through the court system. How much money is everyone willing to spend to get the path open? How many years will it take?

[Hancle704]

I looked at the online county maps and it would appear as you say that the wall is very close to the county line. I am perplex as to why those businesses that I mention have addresses in Lady Lake.

Despite the fact that many of them are physically located in Sumter County, they have Lady Lake addresses because they are served by the Post Office located in Lady Lake which I'm sure you know is in Lake County.

[scres]

Right, so if you show up for work one morning and all of your stuff is out on the sidewalk and when you go inside a receptionist says, "You don't work here anymore and I'm not allowed to say anything else" and you are not allowed to talk to any of your former superiors, you would feel exactly the same as if they sat you down and said, "We're very sorry, but the company is not doing well and we just can't afford to keep you here. (Or even, I'm sorry, but you're doing a terrible job and we are letting you go) Good luck in the future. You would feel exactly the same in those two situations? Is that what you're saying? If you were fired, you wouldn't feel that you were owed an explanation why?

That gate has been there, from what I now understand, for over twenty years. People have used it every day. People have made important life decisions based on that gate being there. And now, with no explanation it's just closed.

Like I said, if there is a good reason for it, I would be very disappointed and unhappy, but at least I would be able to understand.

Also the fact that it was done in this way and that no one from the Villages will give and explanation and have stated that they were told to say nothing by their superiors sounds at the very least a bit suspicious. If it were done for a good reason, it would have been made public. Sometimes silence speaks volumes.

Well said!

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Well, I would just think that if there are so many unhappy residents and they are so angry at the tactics of the Developer that they would not want to stay in such a community. I am sure Stonecrest, Spruce Creek, or Plantation would be to their liking - and they could get more home for their money after selling and making a profit.

It doesn't matter to the developer. When you sell your home at a profit someone is buying it and becoming a Villager. Not only that, but if the Properties of the Villages is involved in the sale, some of the commission ends up with the developer. Moving out may make you feel better, but it doesn't hurt the developer.

[Ceafolks]

Here is why I believe it was done as it was done. Anyone with half a brain would know there would be a large out cry if they knew in advance the path would be closed. There is enough history on the path that there is a good legal case for not allowing the path to be closed under Florida Law. It would have been very easy to get an injunction against closing the path by a judge until the case worked its way through the court. All the time the path would remain open. Now close it immediately, get no permit to do so, and the path will remain closed while the whole thing works it way through the court system. How much money is everyone willing to spend to get the path open? How many years will it take?

As my wife would say..." I just hate it when you're right"...:cus:

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Can you verify that the graffiti was indeed painted over? I tried going to FaceBook but that didn't work. Did TV paint it over or did the neighbors?

Although I am against the wall and feel that it was wrong and poorly / not communicated properly....I thought that the graffiti was 'childish' and not benefitting the cause.

Hopefully we'll gat an answer or resolve shortly........

I was there about four hours ago and the wall looks pristine. In fact when I first saw it, a large section of paint looked like it had peeled off. I'd like to know who painted it. That would probably give a pretty good indication of who put it up. I wonder if the fact that it was painted from the Villages side means anything?

[gomoho]

Well, I would just think that if there are so many unhappy residents and they are so angry at the tactics of the Developer that they would not want to stay in such a community. I am sure Stonecrest, Spruce Creek, or Plantation would be to their liking - and they could get more home for their money after selling and making a profit.

A little compassion wouldn't hurt - these are real people being affected by this unfortunate circumstance.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Has anyone on here contacted the president of POA or HOA today? Did you get any kind of response?

[bkcunningham1]

Bugs, just because people are unhappy with being disrespected and being left in the dark on an issue that is very important, it certainly doesn't mean they are going to pack up and move. I love where I live and hope, God willing, that I am here until I die. I don't plan on moving anywhere and I haven't heard any of my friends or neighbors say that are moving or hate the place they love and call home because of this.

[bkcunningham1]

Has anyone on here contacted the president of POA or HOA today? Did you get any kind of response?

I just left her a message on her answering machine about 30 minutes ago. The third message in two days. I haven't heard from her. She hasn't returned a call. I know she must be busy and tired of people calling her.

[graciegirl]

I don't know the answer to these questions and to this problem but I think it will be sooner solved by those who keep a cool head and an open mind like many of you who have acted as leaders and as calming agents.

Njbchbum, Dr. Winston Boogie, bkcunningham, Artic Fox and many more who live there and who this more directly affects have been helpful and involved to find out just why this happened and what if anything can be done to remedy it. You have been good leaders.

The rest of us look up to you.

[LndLocked]

Here is why I believe it was done as it was done. Anyone with half a brain would know there would be a large out cry if they knew in advance the path would be closed. There is enough history on the path that there is a good legal case for not allowing the path to be closed under Florida Law. It would have been very easy to get an injunction against closing the path by a judge until the case worked its way through the court. All the time the path would remain open. Now close it immediately, get no permit to do so, and the path will remain closed while the whole thing works it way through the court system. How much money is everyone willing to spend to get the path open? How many years will it take?

DING DING DING!! winner winner chicken dinner.

Here is the other part IMO ..... "The Developer" really does not give a @&*# about people being mad about this because they will still be selling 200+ new homes per month south of 466A. Until The Great Buildout .... at which point they will have even less reason to care.

This generation(s) of "The Developer" might have inherited some biz skills (although at this point the place is pretty much on autopilot) ... they are badly badly lacking in compassion.

[Peachie]

A little compassion wouldn't hurt - these are real people being affected by this unfortunate circumstance.

Thinking about the long term effects of a decision to allow a paved path from outling communities into The Villages with their golf carts forever... might not hurt either. Maybe the developer is trying to save many of us from ourselves.

There is hard work at hand to open that "hole in the wall". If it is reopened, the big winners are Stonecrest, Spruce Creek and the developed areas beyond. It's not that difficult to have the county open up the back streets to allow access to "The Path". The home values in those subdivisions would profit nicely while The Villages would definitely lose value.

Remember the premium you paid when you bought in The Villages for the Lifestyle? Now many bordering communities have access to the same things we have and don't have to pay the piper. They also are private and much quieter with bigger lots for a lot less money.

If that gate is reopened and the path is paved into The Villages, I would advise anyone considering buying in The Villages to look at these surrounding communities. They would have a gated, private neighborhood with pools, golf and activity centers to enjoy and there is no longer anything special about The Villages. Anyone can use their cart paths.

There is a lot more to think about here, the long term ramifications are HUGE. You can't unring a bell.

[Russ_Boston]

given that...i wonder why it took 20+ years to cancel the invitation.
Most likely some new lawsuit or more likely a money grab (someone wants payment for the carts that cross their property) and we won't pay.

What would your answer be? I'll bet anything that my answer ends up the correct one. It's not just because Morse wants to that's for sure. Something precipitated the action.

[Russ_Boston]

Right, so if you show up for work one morning and all of your stuff is out on the sidewalk and when you go inside a receptionist says, "You don't work here anymore and I'm not allowed to say anything else" and you are not allowed to talk to any of your former superiors, you would feel exactly the same as if they sat you down and said, "We're very sorry, but the company is not doing well and we just can't afford to keep you here. (Or even, I'm sorry, but you're doing a terrible job and we are letting you go) Good luck in the future. You would feel exactly the same in those two situations? Is that what you're saying? If you were fired, you wouldn't feel that you were owed an explanation why?

That gate has been there, from what I now understand, for over twenty years. People have used it every day. People have made important life decisions based on that gate being there. And now, with no explanation it's just closed.

Like I said, if there is a good reason for it, I would be very disappointed and unhappy, but at least I would be able to understand.

Also the fact that it was done in this way and that no one from the Villages will give and explanation and have stated that they were told to say nothing by their superiors sounds at the very least a bit suspicious. If it were done for a good reason, it would have been made public. Sometimes silence speaks volumes.

Doesn't in any way change the fact that I'm out of a job. Or that a wall is up. Who cares about the manner. Doesn't change the outcome in any way.

Another example which may have some relevance: If I won a huge lottery and wanted to quit my job I would never give notice. The problem? Liability. The fact that I now have deep pockets would give some people a thought to sue me over something that they never would have before. As a nurse we do things on a daily basis that COULD put us at risk. Not the kindest thing to do to my employer but I'd have to watch out for liability. I'll bet that is what is happening here - something might have had to happen quick and sudden to avoid further risk of liability.

[Mikeod]

Not controlled by VCDD.

Thanks. Oh well.

[bkcunningham1]

Thank you, Gracie. I have racked my brain trying to understand and make sense of this. That is where my frustration comes from. Just not understanding and not knowing the answers to why. My husband and I are blessed. We don't depend solely on a golf cart for transportation. Going to the businesses by cart was a pleasure and a novelty, not a necessity. I do personally know people who don't have cars.

Ironically, two of my friends don't own cars because they come from The Bronx and New York City and never had need of a car. Myself and another woman help one of the women when the need arises that she has to go somewhere outside TV for doctor's appointments and whatnot. The other woman rents a car and has friends she rides with to recreational/social activities outside the bubble.

I have another friend whose grown daughter is handicapped but proudly works at Walmart. She was able to drive herself in a golf cart to and from work and was proud of her independence. I now know of Dr. Boogie's wife's situation and feel badly for them both.

I know other people who don't have cars and thankfully, wonderfully and unbelievable; they've all managed with the help of friends throughout the years to survive. We'll all survive this if the wall isn't removed. It won't be the worst thing to happen to these wonderful people I've gotten to know and grown to love over the past four years we've proudly been owners of a house in TV.

I have always been impressed and proud to explain how things operated in TV. I've studied the history and been amazed at how the free market system has worked for this family and how the vision and hardwork of a few has benefited and changed the lives of so many.

I think that is why this is so...hurtful...I don't know if that is the right word. Disappointing may be a better word. But it does sting. I know there are people who it impacts a lot worse than my circle of friends. But I'll tell you this. I know the character and the caliber of the people here and I don't think they will let anyone who needs a ride walk nor anyone who needs to eat go hungry.

[LndLocked]

Most likely some new lawsuit or more likely a money grab (someone wants payment for the carts that cross their property) and we won't pay.

What would your answer be? I'll bet anything that my answer ends up the correct one. It's not just because Morse wants to that's for sure. Something precipitated the action.

The management of the new assisted living facility has stated on this site as not knowing anything about this. They could be lying through their teeth (imo, highly unlikely) but if so ..... why wouldn't The Developer throw them under the bus?

"Mr. Brown" not only sold the land to the assisted living facility with the written understanding that golf carts could continue to utilize the access .... he allowed a temp trail through his property during construction of the facility. Of course it is not beyond the realms of possibility that "Mr. Brown" tricked everyone and now wants a pound of flesh (even more unlikely), but that leads us back to who gets thrown under the bus.

AGAIN .... if any of your reason(s) where true ..... then why not launch a preemptive strike on bad PR and tell / warn everyone up front????

Please give me one just one good reason to handle this in the manner that it has been!

My reason(s) are stated above.

[Steve9930]

Thinking about the long term effects of a decision to allow a paved path from outling communities into The Villages with their golf carts forever... might not hurt either. Maybe the developer is trying to save many of us from ourselves.

There is hard work at hand to open that "hole in the wall". If it is reopened, the big winners are Stonecrest, Spruce Creek and the developed areas beyond. It's not that difficult to have the county open up the back streets to allow access to "The Path". The home values in those subdivisions would profit nicely while The Villages would definitely lose value.

Remember the premium you paid when you bought in The Villages for the Lifestyle? Now many bordering communities have access to the same things we have and don't have to pay the piper. They also are private and much quieter with bigger lots for a lot less money.

If that gate is reopened and the path is paved into The Villages, I would advise anyone considering buying in The Villages to look at these surrounding communities. They would have a gated, private neighborhood with pools, golf and activity centers to enjoy and there is no longer anything special about The Villages. Anyone can use their cart paths.

There is a lot more to think about here, the long term ramifications are HUGE. You can't unring a bell.

Anyone can use all the cart paths today, even with the new wall. You can cross 441/27 with a LSV and use the cart paths. Or you can go rent a golf cart for a small fee and run around all day long. Don't even need to be a senior. The number of carts that come from Stonecrest or Spruce Creek South is really small in number. The majority of this inconvenience is on the shoulders of those that live in the Historic Section and the Spanish Springs area.

[Boudicca]

Three days into this sad situation and still no official word concerning the wall. We don't know why it installed, assume it will be there for good. Don't see a resolution any time soon.

[njbchbum]

Anyone can use all the cart paths today, even with the new wall. You can cross 441/27 with a LSV and use the cart paths. Or you can go rent a golf cart for a small fee and run around all day long. Don't even need to be a senior. The number of carts that come from Stonecrest or Spruce Creek South is really small in number. The majority of this inconvenience is on the shoulders of those that live in the Historic Section and the Spanish Springs area.

where can an lsv cross other than up at spruce creek south? and you surely don't mean that anything other than street legals can cross, do you?

[PennBF]

For you new people. This is still a great community but has some serious warts that must be removed. Hopefully all residence will remember this at election time as the ballot box is always the democratic way to get rid of these rascals. I was going to go into more discussion but it is probably useless and only voting the varmits out will fix these kind of problems. How many "elected" officials from the State Reps. down to the CDD members have you seen at the wall demanding action? You don't have to take your shoes off as you can probably count them on 1/2 a hand. Of course the POA President was there but you would not expect less from the POA..:bowdown:

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Here is why I believe it was done as it was done. Anyone with half a brain would know there would be a large out cry if they knew in advance the path would be closed. There is enough history on the path that there is a good legal case for not allowing the path to be closed under Florida Law. It would have been very easy to get an injunction against closing the path by a judge until the case worked its way through the court. All the time the path would remain open. Now close it immediately, get no permit to do so, and the path will remain closed while the whole thing works it way through the court system. How much money is everyone willing to spend to get the path open? How many years will it take?

I think that if it does come to a court case a decent lawyer would be able to get an injunction keeping the path open until the case is settled, seeing as how it has been open for 20 years.

[wendyquat]

Well, from all the negative feelings about The Villages, it looks as though the real estate agents will be having a field day in getting new listings.

Maybe Buggy, but maybe not so anxious buyers!

[Steve9930]

where can an lsv cross other than up at spruce creek south? and you surely don't mean that anything other than street legals can cross, do you?

LSV (Street Legal) can cross at the light next to the two banks coming out of the Lowes parking lot. You can cross there at the Hospital and Doctors offices. You basically can cross anywhere there on 441/27. Golf carts are not considered LSVs. They cannot cross legally.

[Peachie]

Anyone can use all the cart paths today, even with the new wall. You can cross 441/27 with a LSV and use the cart paths. Or you can go rent a golf cart for a small fee and run around all day long. Don't even need to be a senior. The number of carts that come from Stonecrest or Spruce Creek South is really small in number. The majority of this inconvenience is on the shoulders of those that live in the Historic Section and the Spanish Springs area.

I would agree that there are not many LSV's from outside communities using our paths now but what evidence do you have that very few carts come into The Villages from Stonecrest?

There was a post on here just a bit ago from a gal, Donna, in Stonecrest telling how up-in-arms people there are about the news of the wall being installed by The Villages to which Graciegirl responded that there were previous threads regarding the matter.

I believe the majority of the inconvenience is on the shoulders of the people in Stonecrest, am I wrong... EdV? I understand EdV's, (who is working very hard to keep this accessible for Stonecrest), efforts to keep access to The Villages open for Stonecresters, but my investment is in The Villages and I don't want the increase in cart traffic that a nice paved path straight into The Villages paths will create.

There was a very, very serious bike vs cart accident on one of The Villages golf cart paths a short time ago. The accident was the fault of the cart driver who was from Oxford, not The Villages and did not belong on these paths. Would this have happened in gated Stonecrest?

[villages07]

I'm not sticking up for anyone. Maybe the Moorse Family didn't put the wall up, so IF he didn't put it up he can't take it down or comment on it. Why don't you try and contact Gary Lester he seems to be the go to guy !!

Skip... this is the first mention of Lester... was surprised that it had not come up before.

Dr Gary Lester, VP of Community Relations for The Villages... the main PR guy. If ever there was a need for a PR man...they need one now.

BK... anyone been in contact with Lester?

I have been a long time supporter of the developer for the wonderful community he has built and the rewards he has reaped for the risks he took. I believed in the 'benevolent dictatorship' since things have always run smoothly and kept getting better. Not so sure about the benevolent part now. Either he didn't know how many people would be impacted or just didn't care. If the latter, that's just sad. If the former, a good PR man can smooth things over and return the path to operation.

Whether it was a business/liability decision or just a feud with a rival landowner, an explanation before taking action would have headed off most of this controversy.

For the record, I live south of LSL but we both have doctors in the medical plaza adjacent to TV and on the other side of Lowes and probably used the "hole in the wall" 10-15 times a year. With 1 car, 2 carts this will be an inconvenience for us. For some folks, it is a game changer. We are all Villagers and should have empathy for those most directly affected.

I hope this is resolved quickly and things are restored back to what was with face saved all the way around.

Very poorly handled and might make the commissioners in Fruitland Park think twice about wanting to invite TV development into their city limits...they will have effectively ceded future control of their town to TV's developers.

I'm not too proud of Gary and Mark Morse right now.

[Steve9930]

I think that if it does come to a court case a decent lawyer would be able to get an injunction against keeping the path open until the case is settled, seeing as how it has been open for 20 years.

Civil Court can be a nightmare with all kinds of legal maneuvers to frustrate even the most patient in life.

[bkcunningham1]

Skip... this is the first mention of Lester... was surprised that it had not come up before.

Dr Gary Lester, VP of Community Relations for The Villages... the main PR guy. If ever there was a need for a PR man...they need one now.

BK... anyone been in contact with Lester?

I have been a long time supporter of the developer for the wonderful community he has built and the rewards he has reaped for the risks he took. I believed in the 'benevolent dictatorship' since things have always run smoothly and kept getting better. Not so sure about the benevolent part now. Either he didn't know how many people would be impacted or just didn't care. If the latter, that's just sad. If the former, a good PR man can smooth things over and return the path to operation.

Whether it was a business/liability decision or just a feud with a rival landowner, an explanation before taking action would have headed off most of this controversy.

For the record, I live south of LSL but we both have doctors in the medical plaza adjacent to TV and on the other side of Lowes and probably used the "hole in the wall" 10-15 times a year. With 1 car, 2 carts this will be an inconvenience for us. For some folks, it is a game changer. We are all Villagers and should have empathy for those most directly affected.

I hope this is resolved quickly and things are restored back to what was with face saved all the way around.

Very poorly handled and might make the commissioners in Fruitland Park think twice about wanting to invite TV development into their city limits...they will have effectively ceded future control of their town to TV's developers.

I'm not too proud of Gary and Mark Morse right now.


His office stopped taking calls on Monday afternoon and Tuesday. I don't know about today. I've been busy and didn't get a chance to call.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

For you new people. This is still a great community but has some serious warts that must be removed. Hopefully all residence will remember this at election time as the ballot box is always the democratic way to get rid of these rascals. I was going to go into more discussion but it is probably useless and only voting the varmits out will fix these kind of problems. How many "elected" officials from the State Reps. down to the CDD members have you seen at the wall demanding action? You don't have to take your shoes off as you can probably count them on 1/2 a hand. Of course the POA President was there but you would not expect less from the POA..:bowdown:

I agree. It is a wonderful place to live and I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. I also think that the developer has done a wonderful job and has given us all an opportunity for a very nice lifestyle. He has been rewarded for that and so have the many employees and us residents.

I don't like what was done here and I'd like to see it either reversed or explained. But that is only one aspect of life here. There is so much good about the place.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Civil Court can be a nightmare with all kinds of legal maneuvers to frustrate even the most patient in life.


That why they issue injunctions. By the way, I had a typo in my post and I fixed it. I meant an injunction keeping the path open until it is settled.

[JeffAVEWS]

Thinking about the long term effects of a decision to allow a paved path from outling communities into The Villages with their golf carts forever... might not hurt either. Maybe the developer is trying to save many of us from ourselves.

There is hard work at hand to open that "hole in the wall". If it is reopened, the big winners are Stonecrest, Spruce Creek and the developed areas beyond. It's not that difficult to have the county open up the back streets to allow access to "The Path". The home values in those subdivisions would profit nicely while The Villages would definitely lose value.

Remember the premium you paid when you bought in The Villages for the Lifestyle? Now many bordering communities have access to the same things we have and don't have to pay the piper. They also are private and much quieter with bigger lots for a lot less money.

If that gate is reopened and the path is paved into The Villages, I would advise anyone considering buying in The Villages to look at these surrounding communities. They would have a gated, private neighborhood with pools, golf and activity centers to enjoy and there is no longer anything special about The Villages. Anyone can use their cart paths.

There is a lot more to think about here, the long term ramifications are HUGE. You can't unring a bell.

Peachie, this is not "These are my toys and you can't play with them" We residents of the Historic side have been harmed by the construction of the Concrete Curtain We are the predominant users of the right-of-way, not Stonecrest or anyplace else. I'm sure the merchants doing business in SS are happy to have their business.

[Steve9930]

That why they issue injunctions. By the way, I had a typo in my post and I fixed it. I meant an injunction keeping the path open until it is settled.

I knew what you meant. If the community would have known ahead of the actual closing then I agree, an injunction would have easily been issued to keep the path open until litigation was resolved. This is why I believe it was handled in the way it was handled. Now that the wall is up it works in the opposite direction. No judge will order the wall removed.

[Rob&Lu]

His office stopped taking calls on Monday afternoon and Tuesday. I don't know about today. I've been busy and didn't get a chance to call. As a 22year resident of The Villages, and a resident on Paradise Dr., it's pretty clear that this decision, especially given it's "stealthiness" has to do with something personal and probably petty.

When was the last time you saw the Morse family NOT trumpet some change to The Villages infrastructure? Their total silence and the refusal of Lester's office to even respond to this doesn't pass the smell test.

Years ago, the Morses wanted to make that cart passage a thru STREET, and we went up in arms about it, and so the cart path was modified, including the island (it used to have a gate pass system). The path only helps The Villages by bringing traffic into it at the Square, and by providing convenience to the medical building, doctors' offices, Urgent Care and other shopping areas NOT in competition with Villages businesses.

So what's left besides cutting off your nose to spite your face?

Hopefully the Morses will see the folly of their pettiness, and the loss of profit, and quietly and quickly reverse this horrible mis-calculation of public sentiment and restore good-will.

The Morses have built up too much good-will in our community by providing such a great place to live. Please don't make the memory of our dear Harold turn over in his grave over a petty argument!:sad:

[bkcunningham1]

As a 22year resident of The Villages, and a resident on Paradise Dr., it's pretty clear that this decision, especially given it's "stealthiness" has to do with something personal and probably petty.

When was the last time you saw the Morse family NOT trumpet some change to The Villages infrastructure? Their total silence and the refusal of Lester's office to even respond to this doesn't pass the smell test.

Years ago, the Morses wanted to make that cart passage a thru STREET, and we went up in arms about it, and so the cart path was modified, including the island (it used to have a gate pass system). The path only helps The Villages by bringing traffic into it at the Square, and by providing convenience to the medical building, doctors' offices, Urgent Care and other shopping areas NOT in competition with Villages businesses.

So what's left besides cutting off your nose to spite your face?

Hopefully the Morses will see the folly of their pettiness, and the loss of profit, and quietly and quickly reverse this horrible mis-calculation of public sentiment and restore good-will.

The Morses have built up too much good-will in our community by providing such a great place to live. Please don't make the memory of our dear Harold turn over in his grave over a petty argument!:sad:

Welcome to Talk of the Villages. I am sorry that we are meeting under these circumstances but what a pleasure it is to read your wise and well thought out words. I hope you stick around. I have a feeling we can learn a lot from you.

[Russ_Boston]

I guess I'm missing something - please help me understand.

Nowhere else in TV does the developer 'invite' you to take a cart onto private property. There are signs everywhere that say "no carts past this point" or we have those brown fences which signal 'out of bounds' if you will. The fact that people did (not the developer) basically create a path for these many years that lead to 'off campus' facilities does not in any way mean it was meant to be that way forever.

Yes I can greatly sympathize with those that built their agenda around this access but there are many other examples around TV to look at:

When Sumter Place was built with 3 stories instead of 2 people bitched. Although Sumter Place is not owned by TV.

When lands that were once vacant or had buffalo on them were developed and neighbors lost their privacy in their backyards they bitched.

People along 466a that back up to the now occupied by cows farmland are bitching at the possible sale of that land that may lead to further homes in their current quiet back yards.

The point is you can only control what is known. If you buy a home next to current vacant land you may not have it that way forever. If you take a cart path on locations that they are not supposed to be on but do it anyway don't expect that condition to last forever.

I think it would be different if there was something in writing that granted easement to these properties but this is just something that developed over time and times change.

Go ahead and call me the bad guy if you wish. I have empathy for you and feel where you are coming from but...

[Peachie]

Peachie, this is not "These are my toys and you can't play with them" We residents of the Historic side have been harmed by the construction of the Concrete Curtain We are the predominant users of the right-of-way, not Stonecrest or anyplace else. I'm sure the merchants doing business in SS are happy to have their business.

Jeff, how about a grown-up rephrasing of your statement... This is my real estate and you can devalue it by rewriting the covenants we all agreed to when we paid extra for this lifestyle. As I said in an earlier statement on here... different people we have talked with over the years from the Historic section hoped that the path would never be closed off. It was a gamble that the covenants of an enclosed community wouldn't be enforced.

Funny thing is I brought up a discussion with my husband this past spring about considering Stonecrest. It has much lower traffic, lower home prices, private and gated, golf course availability and if access to The Villages is streamlined, the conversation will sure be worth revisiting.

[DougB]

Villagers were invited to use this path by the very fact it was allowed for 20 years. Yes, there are signs every where, but there was never a sign there.

[bkcunningham1]

The wall prevents carts from traveling from TV onto TV property where The Villages Regional Hospital has their east campus and beyond. Have you ever taken the path from TV to TV Woodworking Shop on Rolling Acres?

[Peachie]

I guess I'm missing something - please help me understand.

Nowhere else in TV does the developer 'invite' you to take a cart onto private property. There are signs everywhere that say "no carts past this point" or we have those brown fences which signal 'out of bounds' if you will. The fact that people did (not the developer) basically create a path for these many years that lead to 'off campus' facilities does not in any way mean it was meant to be that way forever.

Yes I can greatly sympathize with those that built their agenda around this access but there are many other examples around TV to look at:

When Sumter Place was built with 3 stories instead of 2 people bitched. Although Sumter Place is not owned by TV.

When lands that were once vacant or had buffalo on them were developed and neighbors lost their privacy in their backyards they bitched.

People along 466a that back up to the now occupied by cows farmland are bitching at the possible sale of that land that may lead to further homes in their current quiet back yards.

The point is you can only control what is known. If you buy a home next to current vacant land you may not have it that way forever. If you take a cart path on locations that they are not supposed to be on but do it anyway don't expect that condition to last forever.

I think it would be different if there was something in writing that granted easement to these properties but this is just something that developed over time and times change.

Go ahead and call me the bad guy if you wish. I have empathy for you and feel where you are coming from but...

Good points, Russ!

[njbchbum]

Thinking about the long term effects of a decision to allow a paved path from outling communities into The Villages with their golf carts forever... might not hurt either. Maybe the developer is trying to save many of us from ourselves.

There is hard work at hand to open that "hole in the wall". If it is reopened, the big winners are Stonecrest, Spruce Creek and the developed areas beyond. It's not that difficult to have the county open up the back streets to allow access to "The Path". The home values in those subdivisions would profit nicely while The Villages would definitely lose value.

Remember the premium you paid when you bought in The Villages for the Lifestyle? Now many bordering communities have access to the same things we have and don't have to pay the piper. They also are private and much quieter with bigger lots for a lot less money.

If that gate is reopened and the path is paved into The Villages, I would advise anyone considering buying in The Villages to look at these surrounding communities. They would have a gated, private neighborhood with pools, golf and activity centers to enjoy and there is no longer anything special about The Villages. Anyone can use their cart paths.

There is a lot more to think about here, the long term ramifications are HUGE. You can't unring a bell.

peachie - you post as if you believe there is an ever constant flow of stonecrest/spruce creek residents pouring into the villages daiyl...how many outside residents do you think really use that trail to access the villages and ride around on the cart paths?

[Warren Kiefer]

Your example would work and make sense if someone got fired without any explanation. How would you feel if you went into the hospital and they said you didn't have a job and everyone who you spoke with said they didn't know anything about it? How would you feel if they refused to give you any explanation? I imagine you'd want, at the very least, an explanation. It just adds insult to injury to not be given the time of day and treated as something insignificant.

I can name at least ten people who worked for the Developer and were terminated without explanation. I personally knew four or five that went the their former supervisors with the question why. The answer they were given was that they did not have to give a reason why!!! I also personally know that some of those who I can name, got their firing notification in a unique way. Their peronal items were piled out on the sidewalk when they arrived for work.

[johnsgt]

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/members/johnsgt-34631/albums/villagesgate-scandal-867/4860-img-20130813-6/

[JeffAVEWS]

Once again let's remember it was the developer who provided the path, it was not made by the residents, He did the same thing between Tarrson Ave and near the post office.

[Peachie]

peachie - you post as if you believe there is an ever constant flow of stonecrest/spruce creek residents pouring into the villages daiyl...how many outside residents do you think really use that trail to access the villages and ride around on the cart paths?

If only 2 or 3 carts a day are coming over, njbchbum, why is the Stonecrest group even involved in the discussion? (If we moved to Stonecrest and that path is polished off and opened again, you can bet we'll be using it often.)

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I guess I'm missing something - please help me understand.

Nowhere else in TV does the developer 'invite' you to take a cart onto private property. There are signs everywhere that say "no carts past this point" or we have those brown fences which signal 'out of bounds' if you will. The fact that people did (not the developer) basically create a path for these many years that lead to 'off campus' facilities does not in any way mean it was meant to be that way forever.

Yes I can greatly sympathize with those that built their agenda around this access but there are many other examples around TV to look at:

When Sumter Place was built with 3 stories instead of 2 people bitched. Although Sumter Place is not owned by TV.

When lands that were once vacant or had buffalo on them were developed and neighbors lost their privacy in their backyards they bitched.

People along 466a that back up to the now occupied by cows farmland are bitching at the possible sale of that land that may lead to further homes in their current quiet back yards.

The point is you can only control what is known. If you buy a home next to current vacant land you may not have it that way forever. If you take a cart path on locations that they are not supposed to be on but do it anyway don't expect that condition to last forever.

I think it would be different if there was something in writing that granted easement to these properties but this is just something that developed over time and times change.

Go ahead and call me the bad guy if you wish. I have empathy for you and feel where you are coming from but...

A point that you might be missing is that the businesses, the medical center, Lowes, the banks, Beals, Firehouse Subs, Aldi, Wal-Mart and the other 30 or so businesses over there are cart friendly. They allow carts in their parking lots. They have special parking for carts. The new assisted living facility advertised that it is cart friendly. Mr Robert Brown who owns all of that vacant land created a path and wanted us to use it. All of these places welcome carts. The residents of Stonecrest are also going off campus when they visit these businesses. The developer did not "invite" over there. We were invited a long time ago by the businesses.
All the developer, Harold Schwartz at the time,created a path for us to go through.
Up until this Saturday, we would go through the gate and be on the medical center's property, from there we would cross the assisted living facility, then onto a short dirt path alongside a cement water retention pond. After that, we crossed a public street and proceeded into Lowe's parking lot which is also Beal's parking lot and has several small business as well. From there, we could go on to another medical center and then into Aldi's parking lot. A short dirt path from Aldi's leads to the Wal-Mart parking lot.
All of these areas are cart friendly. They want out carts there. They make it easy for us to bring them there. It was never a question of the developer inviting the residents anywhere. All he did was not get in our way.

[njbchbum]

Most likely some new lawsuit or more likely a money grab (someone wants payment for the carts that cross their property) and we won't pay.

What would your answer be? I'll bet anything that my answer ends up the correct one. It's not just because Morse wants to that's for sure. Something precipitated the action.

of course something put a burr under the developer's saddle - but i don't see it as a demand for $$ for use of the path. mr. brown, at least, has never indicated that the path would become another florida toll road.

i am going with the proposal that the developer is distraught that the landowner percieves 'golf cart access to the villages' for the land parcels he has for sale; and that the landowner anticipates higher property sales because of that; and that that is what has upset mr. morse - that just anyone would have golf cart access to his golf cart community!

so much for friendly hometown!

[Karron]

:gc::gc::gc:
Great post....Thanks!

[njbchbum]

LSV (Street Legal) can cross at the light next to the two banks coming out of the Lowes parking lot. You can cross there at the Hospital and Doctors offices. You basically can cross anywhere there on 441/27. Golf carts are not considered LSVs. They cannot cross legally.

gotcha! thanx!

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

And you expect them to go down after this stunt? By closing the path the developer is forcing residents to use the Walmart on 466 which is located on his property and he gets a piece of the action for every dollar spent. He was getting nothing from those using the Walmart on 441.

Harold Schwartz would be rolling over in his grave over this stunt.

VG

I don't think that the developer gets a piece of every dollar spent. If it's like most real estate transactions, the developer simply rents the land to Wal-Mart.

Residents that have cars will continue to shop at the Wal-Mart on 27/441. Some, and I think very few, that do not have cars will not shop at Wal-Mart at all or they will get their friends to take them to the one on 27/441.

[njbchbum]

Jeff, how about a grown-up rephrasing of your statement... This is my real estate and you can devalue it by rewriting the covenants we all agreed to when we paid extra for this lifestyle. As I said in an earlier statement on here... different people we have talked with over the years from the Historic section hoped that the path would never be closed off. It was a gamble that the covenants of an enclosed community wouldn't be enforced.

Funny thing is I brought up a discussion with my husband this past spring about considering Stonecrest. It has much lower traffic, lower home prices, private and gated, golf course availability and if access to The Villages is streamlined, the conversation will sure be worth revisiting.

where is in the covenants that the villages is an enclosed community? what IS an enclosed community? i looked at my covenants and do not see that phrase in the paperwork.

[njbchbum]

If only 2 or 3 carts a day are coming over, njbchbum, why is the Stonecrest group even involved in the discussion? (If we moved to Stonecrest and that path is polished off and opened again, you can bet we'll be using it often.)

sounds like a great idea!

[Steve9930]

gotcha! thanx!

Here's the deal as I see it on purchasing an LSV. By the time you pay the purchase price, taxes, registration, and insurance you will pay as much for the LSV as some of the small inexpensive autos. You will have a vehicle that is restricted to roads with a posted speed limit of 35 MPH or less and a limited range. With the auto you may pay a tad more for operating expenses but will have no limitations on where you may operate the vehicle. You also will have a safer vehicle to drive. Those that use an LSV(Low Speed Vehicle) are at a sever disadvantage in the event of an accident with a large automobile. You can fool your mind into thinking your driving a safe vehicle but you cannot change the physics. I know a bit off the subject but just a small detour.

[njbchbum]

pm'g you in order to keep thread on topic.

[Russ_Boston]

My only point is that when you put aside the emotions - Is there ANY other place in TV where you can legally bring a non street legal cart to that is OFF the campus?

I don't think so. But I may be wrong so please let us know of any other. Thanks.

If not then this (again, emotions aside) is just more off campus business that we can not get to.

I really like to bottom line things instead of allowing emotions to rule.

[njbchbum]

My only point is that when you put aside the emotions - Is there ANY other place in TV where you can legally bring a non street legal cart to that is OFF the campus?

I don't think so. But I may be wrong so please let us know of any other. Thanks.

If not then this (again, emotions aside) is just more off campus business that we can not get to.

I really like to bottom line things instead of allowing emotions to rule.

could you clarify the difference between 'in TV' and 'OFF the campus' please.
if it is off campus is it still in the villages? i will take a stab and suggest the villages wood working building on rolling acres rd that uses a path thru the woods and the golf range beyond that bldg that i don't think folks are supposed to cart to.

does it really matter whether one could leave the campus by golf cart from any other spot than the paradise dr non-gate?

we can also cross out of la plaza grande by the villages golf cart store/citizens bank at that traffic light to get to the target shopping center across avenida central.

[Russ_Boston]

Once again let's remember it was the developer who provided the path, it was not made by the residents, He did the same thing between Tarrson Ave and near the post office.

What path are we talking about? The 'inside' path out of the historic district is only about 30 yards long. After that it is made up of various cut throughs and parking lots etc. Maybe there is some case to be heard because of some long standing easement but other than that many of these 'paths' are though non TV owned private land. Any ONE of them could cut access if they wished to.

I would think that the smaller stores like Takis etc would stand to lose more than Lowes, Walmart etc.

[wendyquat]

My only point is that when you put aside the emotions - Is there ANY other place in TV where you can legally bring a non street legal cart to that is OFF the campus?

I don't think so. But I may be wrong so please let us know of any other. Thanks.

If not then this (again, emotions aside) is just more off campus business that we can not get to.

I really like to bottom line things instead of allowing emotions to rule.


Are we in "TV" when we go to Fresh Market? Just curious.

[Russ_Boston]

could you clarify the difference between 'in TV' and 'OFF the campus' please.
if it is off campus is it still in the villages? i will take a stab and suggest the villages wood working building on rolling acres rd that uses a path thru the woods and the golf range beyond that bldg.

All of that land to get to the wood working location is, to my knowledge, owned by TV.

Yes you can get to the golf range because once you get to the 'off campus' part you are actually driving on private property. Currently the driving range doesn't mind because they like the business. But someday they could limit that access and they would have every right to do so since it is private property. Doubt if they would.

[Russ_Boston]

Are we in "TV" when we go to Fresh Market? Just curious.

Yes, TV owned commercial land as is almost everything on Wedgewood Lane.

BUT you'll notice that you can not get to the Hair Academy. That is bounded by non TV private land. You can park in back of it but you can not get into the Academy parking lot legally.

[Steve9930]

Are we in "TV" when we go to Fresh Market? Just curious.

The doctor offices and urgent care I believe are on campus. So where in the TV are on campus facilities cut off from Village Residents? Harbor Chase, Wal-Mart, Lowes would be off campus as you said in your post.

[Russ_Boston]

we can also cross out of la plaza grande by the villages golf cart store/citizens bank at that traffic light to get to the target shopping center across avenida central.

Target Shopping center is, again, TV owned commercial land and Avenida Central is crossable because it is a 35 mph (or maybe 30) road not 45 (like 441, 466 etc).

[Russ_Boston]

The doctor offices and urgent care I believe are on campus. So where in the TV are on campus facilities cut off from Village Residents? Harbor Chase, Wal-Mart, Lowes would be off campus as you said in your post.

I think you might be right about that and that may be a good point to attack the developer with. But it is possible that these lands are not TV commercial land. Does anyone know for sure?

Since TV commercial land is sold with "golf cart accessible" clauses, and demand premium rents because of that, then I doubt that the business mentioned have that clause or the wall limitation would become legally actionable. And one thing we know for sure is that Morse has a bunch of lawyers.

[Peachie]

where is in the covenants that the villages is an enclosed community? what IS an enclosed community? i looked at my covenants and do not see that phrase in the paperwork.

Njbchbum, am I to understand that you didn't know the paths enclosed within The Villages are private paths? I'll bet you didn't know people residing outside The Villages aren't entitled to use The Village pools either. Sigh....

Since the problem seems to be that the people in the historic section want access to "The Path" because they don't want to use the businesses in Spanish Springs or travel so far to Wal Mart on 466, maybe the bridge over 27/441 could be torn down and the problem would be solved. (Tongue in cheek here...)

[njbchbum]

All of that land to get to the wood working location is, to my knowledge, owned by TV.

Yes you can get to the golf range because once you get to the 'off campus' part you are actually driving on private property. Currently the driving range doesn't mind because they like the business. But someday they could limit that access and they would have every right to do so since it is private property. Doubt if they would.

but the villages could put up jersey barriers on the edge of their property to block travel to/from the golf range as they walled off the path to medical facilities and shopping centers?

why do you think old harold paved that path on the historic side to the medical complex if not for the convenience of villagers?

and what business is it of the current developer if folks choose to travel a dirt track over land he does not own?

we already know that lady lake made the once upon a time gate come down because it blocked access to a public road [paradise dr]. so how is it he can do the same thing now with a wall?

no emotion here - just questions without answers.

[Russ_Boston]

and what business is it of the current developer if folks choose to travel a dirt track over land he does not own?

From a legal standpoint he doesn't care if YOU make a decision to drive a cart where you are not supposed to be. But he does care if he paves an open path to that spot and basically INVITES you to be there. It's a legal distinction only. The wall,, as we know, isn't stopping anyone from getting to these locations but THEY make the decision to drive on private property and the TV developer doesn't condone it by making it easy and inviting.

[Russ_Boston]

we already know that lady lake made the once upon a time gate come down because it blocked access to a public road [paradise dr]. so how is it he can do the same thing now with a wall?

Yes. But can you drive a non street legal out of that gate? I don't know.

And even if you can you are on public roads not private property and there is already laws in place which govern what kind of public roads can be driven on by a golf cart.

Again it's a legal thing.

[njbchbum]

Njbchbum, am I to understand that you didn't know the paths enclosed within The Villages are private paths? I'll bet you didn't know people residing outside The Villages aren't entitled to use The Village pools either. Sigh....

Since the problem seems to be that the people in the historic section want access to "The Path" because they don't want to use the businesses in Spanish Springs or travel so far to Wal Mart on 466, maybe the bridge over 27/441 could be torn down and the problem would be solved. (Tongue in cheek here...)

peachie - multi modal paths are private and maintained with our amenities...the roads are public...we are not a private gated community.

are you saying that folks from stonecrest and spruce creek south, lady lake, etc. are allowed to use the pools of the villages. or are you referring to the policies for resident non-owners or guests who live beyond the boundaries of our three counties to use select villages amenities? pray tell.

your tongue in cheek comment was not found to be so - at all.

[Peachie]

[QUOTE=njbchbum;725662]peachie - multi modal paths are private and maintained with our amenities...the roads are public...we are not a private gated community.

are you saying that folks from stonecrest and spruce creek south, lady lake, etc. are allowed to use the pools of the villages. or are you referring to the policies for resident non-owners or guests who live beyond the boundaries of our three counties to use select villages amenities? pray tell
QUOTE



I didn't say The Villages was gated, I used enclosed to try to help you understand even though we are not totally private, we are supposed to have strict limits to public access in many areas.

[njbchbum]

[QUOTE=njbchbum;725662]peachie - multi modal paths are private and maintained with our amenities...the roads are public...we are not a private gated community.

are you saying that folks from stonecrest and spruce creek south, lady lake, etc. are allowed to use the pools of the villages. or are you referring to the policies for resident non-owners or guests who live beyond the boundaries of our three counties to use select villages amenities? pray tell
QUOTE



I didn't say The Villages was gated, I used enclosed to try to help you understand even though we are not totally private, we are supposed to have strict limits to public access in many areas.

then please help me understand what strict limits are put on what public access in what areas. please be specific and not cryptic. thanx

[circletrack]

Hello, I lurk often but rarely post.

Several people have mentioned that parts of the cart path are dirt and run through private property. How would you as home and property owners feel if The Villages built a path leading into your front yard, inviting folks to drive right through your grass? They would be trespassing and you would be upset. Yet it seems in this case many are defending the trespassing that had been going on for years.

Yes this was handled terribly. And has been going on for way to long, but it's hard to argue legally against stopping people from driving though private property. There are all kinds of liability issues that could arise.

The police are issuing tickets to people driving through the grass at the front of the private buildings. How different is that from driving through the grass behind?

Just some food for thought. I too am awaiting an explanation. It is certainly deserved.

[Peachie]

[quote=Peachie;725669]

then please help me understand what strict limits are put on what public access in what areas. please be specific and not cryptic. thanx

Nah, I'll leave cryptic to you... I'd suggest you speak with some of the people you are working with to keep the gap in the wall open and have them explain to you the areas of The Villages which are meant for The Villagers and not for communities that build on their periphery and try to tap into everything that the Morses have created.

Have a good evening, Njbchbum, this will work it's way out whether or not you and I agree. Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree :icon_wink:

[DonH57]

My question would be why was a previously paved path constructed as intended to be used as a cart path be suddenly be walled. It was'nt a roughly cut access by wear and tear of cart tires. I'm baffled as to what would possibly be gained by this blockage of access. Hopefully we will all learn more soon.

[njbchbum]

From a legal standpoint he doesn't care if YOU make a decision to drive a cart where you are not supposed to be. But he does care if he paves an open path to that spot and basically INVITES you to be there. It's a legal distinction only. The wall,, as we know, isn't stopping anyone from getting to these locations but THEY make the decision to drive on private property and the TV developer doesn't condone it by making it easy and inviting.

thanx for your reply, russ - but - oy! what am i missing here?

property beyond the wall is not owned by the villages. some is owned by 'villages tri-county medical center, inc' and some by 'harbor chase village crossings'.

the wall does prevent travel to the medical offices of tri-county to which the path led and about which edv posted in # 415:
'6.Using aerial photographs from Google Earth, I can tell you that in 1999 the path through there appears to be just a dirt path. But in the 2004 photograph, Morse had paved his side with a divider and the Tri County Medical side installed a golf cart sized roundabout with pavers.'

so it seems to me that villagers have been either 'invited' or 'facilitated' to travel to those medical offices for quite some time. why is it decided to eliminate that 'invitation' now?

[njbchbum]

[quote=njbchbum;725675]

Nah, I'll leave cryptic to you... I'd suggest you speak with some of the people you are working with to keep the gap in the wall open and have them explain to you the areas of The Villages which are meant for The Villagers and not for communities that build on their periphery and try to tap into everything that the Morses have created.

Have a good evening, Njbchbum, this will work it's way out whether or not you and I agree. Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree :icon_wink:

the last thing i try to be is cryptic. i have done just that, peachie - and none of them seem to share your point of view. that is why it is so important to me to get and to understand your explanations. please pm them to me if you do not wish to discuss here. i look forward to learning.

[njbchbum]

Hello, I lurk often but rarely post.

Several people have mentioned that parts of the cart path are dirt and run through private property. How would you as home and property owners feel if The Villages built a path leading into your front yard, inviting folks to drive right through your grass? They would be trespassing and you would be upset. Yet it seems in this case many are defending the trespassing that had been going on for years.

Yes this was handled terribly. And has been going on for way to long, but it's hard to argue legally against stopping people from driving though private property. There are all kinds of liability issues that could arise.

The police are issuing tickets to people driving through the grass at the front of the private buildings. How different is that from driving through the grass behind?

Just some food for thought. I too am awaiting an explanation. It is certainly deserved.

circletrack - have you read all of the posts? it sounds not. the dirt path under discussion runs thru property which does not belong to the villages. it belongs to an individual who has bent over backwards to insure that the path has remained available to residents of the villages and other communities. as such, travel over the path has been with permission and facilitation of that owner; which in turn negates any aspect of trespass. so too, does it apparently dismiss any concern for liability on the part of the land owner.

[njbchbum]

Yes. But can you drive a non street legal out of that gate? I don't know.

And even if you can you are on public roads not private property and there is already laws in place which govern what kind of public roads can be driven on by a golf cart.

Again it's a legal thing.

apparently we can drive our golf carts [and always have] out of the path and onto paradise dr because it is within the property of the villages - it is a main drag within the original development! we share the road with cars, bikes, motorcycles, joggers and walkers - without benefit of diamond lanes.

[jblum315]

According to what I've heard from Orange Blossom residents, the path has been closed at least one day a year, therefore no easement.

[graciegirl]

Problem resolved. Read this morning's Daily Sun. VHA President reports. Local Section. Developer will deed over area in front of gate for new gate and gate will disallow access to non villagers. ( I think, I will have to read it again)

Apparently as a result of meeting between VHA and developer.

You can make of that what you will....and some of us will make a lot of it.

Of course it made it appear that it was by negotiation of the VHA, but we all know who ultimately makes the decisions around here.

Much more will be said on that, and we pretty much know ahead of time WHO will say WHAT.

Good morning everyone. It is a lovely day in The Villages.

[Rickg]

Problem resolved. Read this morning's Daily Sun. VHA President reports. Local Section. Developer will deed over area in front of gate for new gate and gate will disallow access to non villagers. ( I think, I will have to read it again)

Apparently as a result of meeting between VHA and developer.

You can make of that what you will....and some of us will make a lot of it.

That is the way we seniors roll.

Can't find it. Could you copy and paste or give link?

[graciegirl]

Can't find it. Could you copy and paste or give link?

I tried to post it in the only way I know how, to take a photo of it with my camera, but my camera battery chose this morning to die.

It is in Local. Article from VHA president. Says developer will deed over area in front of gate to VCDD (?) and new gate will be installed and only villagers can use it.

[N44125]

I tried to post it in the only way I know how, to take a photo of it with my camera, but my camera battery chose this morning to die.

It is in Local. Article from VHA president. Says developer will deed over area in front of gate to VCDD (?) and new gate will be installed and only villagers can use it.
Front page, upper left of the Local section.

HOWEVER,

Look at 9th word in the article....possible.

[graciegirl]

Front page, upper left of the Local section.

HOWEVER,

Look at 9th word in the article....possible.

possible conclusion....is the wording. Then it shows how it will go. The developer will deed over the land. The VCDD will accept it and the gate will be built. Only VILLAGERS can use the gate...I think the word possible is journalistic wording.

Here is what my mother would have said on this conclusion.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

or..Any port in a storm.



I also have learned from her that a half a loaf is better than none and least said soonest mended and It will all come out in the wash and it isn't over until it's over. No. That's Yogi Berra.

[Madelaine Amee]

I have never used this path and therefore, have no dog in this race - but, commonsense tells me this has to be a legal/liability issue. I do not believe the legal department would have done this without a good reason, and I also do not believe this was done maliciously, but I do believe it was done in the typical legal manner without giving much thought to those who genuinely need access to this path.

It could well be that the "family" only learned of this problem when people came forward and rallied in SS.

It is a pity that the "family" do not have a contact who could be told of these happenings before they become a major problem - although, on rethinking this, didn't someone approach Janet Tutt? Maybe she is the one responsible for getting this problem resolved.

[ttown]

How very clever. The Villages has managed to get out of a awkward situation while saving face and boosting one of their organizations, I don't care how it was done, but congratulations to all.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

possible conclusion....is the wording. Then it shows how it will go. The developer will deed over the land. The VCDD will accept it and the gate will be built. Only VILLAGERS can use the gate...I think the word possible is journalistic wording.

Here is what my mother would have said on this conclusion.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

or..Any port in a storm.



I also have learned from her that a half a loaf is better than none and least said soonest mended and It will all come out in the wash and it isn't over until it's over. No. That's Yogi Berra.

Wasn't this the case when the gate was first built? I only know what I've read here and that is that Harold Schwartz built the gate and residents had to use a card to open it. Someone sued and the Villages lost the case because they were limiting access to a public road.
Didn't I just read that in one of these 700 plus posts? And isn't that what is being suggested here?

[gomoho]

Wasn't this the case when the gate was first built? I only know what I've read here and that is that Harold Schwartz built the gate and residents had to use a card to open it. Someone sued and the Villages lost the case because they were limiting access to a public road.
Didn't I just read that in one of these 700 plus posts? And isn't that what is being suggested here?

I was thinking the same thing. Someone will remember what happened to the original gate and hopefully post.

[bkcunningham1]

The story reads:

VHA president proposes solution to golf car issue
STAFF REPORT

THE VILLAGES - Villages Homeowners Association President Bill Gottschalk accounted Tuesday a possible solution to the issue of golf cars entering and exiting the community across private property on Paradise Drive.

The VHA proposal, which Gottschalk plans to present to the Amenity Authority Committee, calls for the developer to donate to the district government the home site on Paradise Drive, which had previously been utilized as a golf car path. As a condition of that donation, the district would build and maintain a gate that would allow access to Villages residents only.

According to Gottschalk, the VHA-proposed solution is a compromised reached after hearing the various concerns of residents and meeting with both the district and the developer.

"We found that all of us-district, developer and residents-shared similar concerns about both security and convenience," he said. "Previously, at this particular location, nonresidents had unfettered access, allowing them to travel in and out of our community and utilize our facilities, paid for and maintained by Villages residents.

"At the same time, we all recognize the desire of many Villagers to access certain convenient serves, particularly medical services, like the urgent care center. In addition to these issues, the developer had a liability concern with all these golf carts passing back and forth across private property. We believe our proposed compromise balances all of these concerns and gives Villages residents both added security and greater access to needed services."

Gottschalk said the compromise is consistent with the philosophy of the Vllages Homeowners Association, which is to e an effective advocate for the residents and to work constructively with the community partners like the district and the developer to solve problems.

"We have a regular and constructive dialogue withe both, which enables us to do more than complain, but rather to actually get things domes that benefit our residents and our community." he said. "Personally, I appreciate how everyone was willing to come together to work on this issue and that the VHA could be the catalyst for this resolution."

- from 08/14 edition of The Daily Sun

[villages07]

Today's article gives praise to the VHA for working with the Developer on a solution. No back story on who put the wall up, why, or the timing. No apologies for the disruption, lack of forethought, etc.

I am still wondering if the action isn't tied to the Developer's desire to add on to TV inside the Fruitland Park town limits. If you read the report of the meeting Monday night with the town commission, TV's reps made a big deal about Fruitland residents not being able to have golf cart access thru the "new" Villages neighborhoods to get to Colony shopping center and points beyond within TV. So, to ward off a rebuttal from Fruitland that there is already a precedent between TV and Stonecrest at the "hole in the wall", they put up a wall blocking off external access just 2 days before the Fruitland meeting.

The solution, with gated access restricted to Villages residents, will satisfy the vast majority of the folks affected by this action. Stonecrest/Spruce Creek folks are shut out. It will no doubt require Villagers with golf carts to have a gate access card in their cart. I can't imagine you would be able to push a button to get through the gate. I also wonder if there will be an issue with Lady Lake about putting up a controlled gate.

It's a workable solution to a problem that was very poorly handled. Will we ever hear the real story behind it all?

[ttown]

Oh, the gate arm was broken and replaced and broken again like so many gates. They finally gave up. I am sure the new one will be sturdy.

[bkcunningham1]

It is my understanding that originally TV was an actual gated community, not a community with gates like we are now. Because federal monies are used for the cart paths, they can't block access into and out of TV.

[graciegirl]

It is my understanding that originally, TV was an actual gated community, not a community with gates like we are now. Because federal monies are used for the cart paths, they can't block access into and out of TV.

Federal money was used for cart paths? Does John Boehner know about this? ;)

[bkcunningham1]

It was discussed here on TOTV once a long time ago. Do you remember, Gracie? Something about federal monies and/or emergency evacuation routes maybe? I can't remember.

[Regor]

I found it interesting that there is also an article in today's paper about possible fines for golf carts driving on the grass along side of 441. I remember when Paradise Lake flooded over the cart path (10 years ago?) and we were allowed to drive right next to hwy 441 on the grass until they built a bridge over that part of the lake. The bridge has now been removed.

If memory serves me right, there was a rope along the side of the road to keep cars and carts mixing it up on 441.
Wondering, how come we could drive next to the highway then but not now? BTW there is a way around that part of the lake without ever leaving The Villages.

[oot]

Today's article gives praise to the VHA for working with the Developer on a solution. No back story on who put the wall up, why, or the timing. No apologies for the disruption, lack of forethought, etc.

I am still wondering if the action isn't tied to the Developer's desire to add on to TV inside the Fruitland Park town limits. If you read the report of the meeting Monday night with the town commission, TV's reps made a big deal about Fruitland residents not being able to have golf cart access thru the "new" Villages neighborhoods to get to Colony shopping center and points beyond within TV. So, to ward off a rebuttal from Fruitland that there is already a precedent between TV and Stonecrest at the "hole in the wall", they put up a wall blocking off external access just 2 days before the Fruitland meeting.

The solution, with gated access restricted to Villages residents, will satisfy the vast majority of the folks affected by this action. Stonecrest/Spruce Creek folks are shut out. It will no doubt require Villagers with golf carts to have a gate access card in their cart. I can't imagine you would be able to push a button to get through the gate. I also wonder if there will be an issue with Lady Lake about putting up a controlled gate.

It's a workable solution to a problem that was very poorly handled. Will we ever hear the real story behind it all?

I agree, the Fruitland Park situation may have been the reason for the wall, I guess we will never know for sure. I think if that is the case, you may find other open areas in the Villages now to be restricted as well.

Now we have to hope that the land owners beyond the gate still allow the access through their properties. I hope all is resolved so that those residents which use the doctor's offices and such can get back to the access they require.:coolsmiley:

[Bogie Shooter]

I am waiting for the big debate and all the posts, to decide what the color of the gate.......should be..........or was painted the wrong color.
If you pray for rain and it rains.......don't bitch!

[janmcn]

It is my understanding that originally TV was an actual gated community, not a community with gates like we are now. Because federal monies are used for the cart paths, they can't block access into and out of TV.

The Villages was more of a gated community when I moved here in 2000. You either had to have a card to enter a gate or you had to enter at a guard station.

This changed when they started building south of 466 and Sumter County balked at maintaining the roads if they had limited access. So the developer and SC reached an agreement that the county would maintain the roads and the gates could be opened by anyone at the touch of a button.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I found it interesting that there is also an article in today's paper about possible fines for golf carts driving on the grass along side of 441. I remember when Paradise Lake flooded over the cart path (10 years ago?) and we were allowed to drive right next to hwy 441 on the grass until they built a bridge over that part of the lake. The bridge has now been removed.

If memory serves me right, there was a rope along the side of the road to keep cars and carts mixing it up on 441.
Wondering, how come we could drive next to the highway then but not now? BTW there is a way around that part of the lake without ever leaving The Villages.

I would guess that it was because the flooding was considered a temporary situation and a temporary solution was put in place by the town. In case it looked like the wall would be permanent and the town made no temporary provision for going around it. There were no ropes put into place nor any signs directing people where to go.
Had this situation not been solved, we certainly could have petitioned the town to allow golf carts in that area. In fact, now that we know a gate will be installed, we could petition the town to allow us to temporarily allow carts in that area.

[bkcunningham1]

I would guess that it was because the flooding was considered a temporary situation and a temporary solution was put in place by the town. In case it looked like the wall would be permanent and the town made no temporary provision for going around it. There were no ropes put into place nor any signs directing people where to go.
Had this situation not been solved, we certainly could have petitioned the town to allow golf carts in that area. In fact, now that we know a gate will be installed, we could petition the town to allow us to temporarily allow carts in that area.

It still has to go before the Amenities Authority Committee for their approval.

[twinklesweep]

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/members/johnsgt-34631/albums/villagesgate-scandal-867/4860-img-20130813-6/

Might I ask what these photos represent? Thank you.

[twinklesweep]

Yes, TV owned commercial land as is almost everything on Wedgewood Lane.

BUT you'll notice that you can not get to the Hair Academy. That is bounded by non TV private land. You can park in back of it but you can not get into the Academy parking lot legally.

You can park at the veterinarian's office whose property line abuts that of the Salon Professional Academy and merely step over the line onto the Salon's parking lot. Theoretically, though, can a golf cart be towed?...

[oot]

Hopefully in the future, they have learned that it would be better to bring up changes to the community in advance. Sure would have been a whole lot easier on all.

Think about the costs involved here:
Cost of new wall
Tear down of old gate
Installation of new gate
Tear down of that new wall
Bad Public Relations
Mental anquish for those affected adversely
Infighting between fellow villagers


Communities should be brought together...not torn apart.

[twinklesweep]

The doctor offices and urgent care I believe are on campus. So where in the TV are on campus facilities cut off from Village Residents? Harbor Chase, Wal-Mart, Lowes would be off campus as you said in your post.

I think you might be right about that and that may be a good point to attack the developer with. But it is possible that these lands are not TV commercial land. Does anyone know for sure?

Since TV commercial land is sold with "golf cart accessible" clauses, and demand premium rents because of that, then I doubt that the business mentioned have that clause or the wall limitation would become legally actionable. And one thing we know for sure is that Morse has a bunch of lawyers.

One of my doctors in "No Man's Land" told me that he owns his building AND the land that it is on, having bought it from the developer many years ago, and and he mentioned that it is true of the doctor next door to him. However, he then added that later, the developer would not SELL land but rather would RENT it.

I have always gone to that doctor by golf cart to the Sharon Morse Building, park the cart there, and walk across 27-441 (with the light, of course), and it has never been a problem (though much to the amusement of the staff in the doctor's office...). I do the same near Walgreen's in the parking lot where Target and Staples are located, then cross Rolling Acres Road to the huge complex that includes Best Buy, Bed Bath & Beyond, Joann Fabric, and even as far as Kohl's. And when I have to, I can cross 27-441 (using the lights, as there is no crosswalk there) to Home Depot and so forth. Perhaps not the most ideal, but it works....

[Arctic Fox]

...the problem seems to be that the people in the historic section want access to "The Path"...

Peachie, it was not just the people in the historic section who used that cart path - many people living north of 466 did too

Whenever anyone refers to just the historic side residents, or asks how many of the historic side residents don't own cars, they are minimising the true impact of this issue.

[twinklesweep]

Njbchbum, ... I'll bet you didn't know people residing outside The Villages aren't entitled to use The Village pools either. Sigh....

peachie ... are you saying that folks from stonecrest and spruce creek south, lady lake, etc. are allowed to use the pools of the villages....

There is a difference between "aren't entitled" and "are allowed." The use of our pools in TV by outsiders has long been an issue....

[twinklesweep]

Problem resolved. Read this morning's Daily Sun. VHA President reports. Local Section. Developer will deed over area in front of gate for new gate and gate will disallow access to non villagers. ( I think, I will have to read it again)

Apparently as a result of meeting between VHA and developer.

You can make of that what you will....and some of us will make a lot of it.

Of course it made it appear that it was by negotiation of the VHA, but we all know who ultimately makes the decisions around here.

Much more will be said on that, and we pretty much know ahead of time WHO will say WHAT.

Good morning everyone. It is a lovely day in The Villages.

Aren't the VHA and the Developer one and the same? That would be like someone talking to oneself, wouldn't it?

Good morning to you too!!!

[Arctic Fox]

Several people have mentioned that parts of the cart path are dirt and run through private property.

The cart path under discussion has been paved and fully-maintained (with landscaping and lights) for over a decade and has been safely used by many people on a regular basis.

[CFrance]

I'm guessing... that the developer capitulated in a way that makes him look good, makes the VHA look good, keeps the POA out of his hair, and allows him not to respond as to why the wall was put up to begin with.

If this proposal is acted upon, good for all. And good for all who picketed to voice their displeasure.

The developer certainly does adhere to the first part of your grandmother's adage, Gracie... Least said!! ;^)

[EdV]

What an incredibly ill-conceived solution. Using Gottschalk�s logic, allow me to restate his solution:

This VHA-proposed solution will allow TV residents unfettered access to non-resident facilities, while at the same time denying non-residents access to �our� facilities.

Can any of you who have voiced your outrage at cart path closing and its egregious denial of access to public facilities honestly say that you think this is a fair and equitable solution to all those affected by the path closure?

Furthermore, Gottschalk�s accusations are blatantly false. The golf cart bridge over 441 was approved by the state and built and maintained by Morse commercial entities, not amenity funds. So Stonecrest residents can drive through Orange Blossom Hills, over the bridge and to all of the medical and retail facilities along the west side of 441 without ever setting foot on amenity supported paths or facilities. Who does he think he�s fooling?

Now if the reason for the wall being erected was concern for liability (an often used legal smokescreen), then why not propose to have Morse donate the homesite to the town of Lady Lake or Lake county, thereby making it an extension of Paradise Drive.

[njbchbum]

It still has to go before the Amenities Authority Committee for their approval.

those rubber stampers! lol

[johnsgt]

The pictures were of the alternate gate which was "opened up" to the parking lot of the Life Medical Practice -- apparently the community watch and some officials were in the process of restricting the use of this access and I snapped a couple of shots///

[njbchbum]

possible conclusion....is the wording. Then it shows how it will go. The developer will deed over the land. The VCDD will accept it and the gate will be built. Only VILLAGERS can use the gate...I think the word possible is journalistic wording.

Here is what my mother would have said on this conclusion.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

or..Any port in a storm.



I also have learned from her that a half a loaf is better than none and least said soonest mended and It will all come out in the wash and it isn't over until it's over. No. That's Yogi Berra.


and my father always reminded me, 'don't count your chickens before they hatch.'

am not gonna hold my breath until that committee meets, the wall comes down and the gate goes up! i just wonder if it will be done before or after the hilltop restaurant gets reopened and/or we return for the winter!

wonder, too, when can folks schedule medical appts with doctors in the medical campus area and use their golf cart to get their?

[njbchbum]

What an incredibly ill-conceived solution. Using Gottschalk�s logic, allow me to restate his solution:

This VHA-proposed solution will allow TV residents unfettered access to non-resident facilities, while at the same time denying non-residents access to �our� facilities.

Can any of you who have voiced your outrage at cart path closing and its egregious denial of access to public facilities honestly say that you think this is a fair and equitable solution to all those affected by the path closure?

Furthermore, Gottschalk�s accusations are blatantly false. The golf cart bridge over 441 was approved by the state and built and maintained by Morse commercial entities, not amenity funds. So Stonecrest residents can drive through Orange Blossom Hills, over the bridge and to all of the medical and retail facilities along the west side of 441 without ever setting foot on amenity supported paths or facilities. Who does he think he�s fooling?

Now if the reason for the wall being erected was concern for liability (an often used legal smokescreen), then why not propose to have Morse donate the homesite to the town of Lady Lake or Lake county, thereby making it an extension of Paradise Drive.

i guess because reconciliation only goes so far, edv! ;)

[graciegirl]

I'm guessing... that the developer capitulated in a way that makes him look good, makes the VHA look good, keeps the POA out of his hair, and allows him not to respond as to why the wall was put up to begin with.

If this proposal is acted upon, good for all. And good for all who picketed to voice their displeasure.

The developer certainly does adhere to the first part of your grandmother's adage, Gracie... Least said!! ;^)

I grow to respect your attitude more every day.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Hello, I lurk often but rarely post.

Several people have mentioned that parts of the cart path are dirt and run through private property. How would you as home and property owners feel if The Villages built a path leading into your front yard, inviting folks to drive right through your grass? They would be trespassing and you would be upset. Yet it seems in this case many are defending the trespassing that had been going on for years.

Yes this was handled terribly. And has been going on for way to long, but it's hard to argue legally against stopping people from driving though private property. There are all kinds of liability issues that could arise.

The police are issuing tickets to people driving through the grass at the front of the private buildings. How different is that from driving through the grass behind?

Just some food for thought. I too am awaiting an explanation. It is certainly deserved.

As has been previously explained the cart path that has been closed is paved, lighted and has been maintained for a long time. I understand that it was created by Harold Schwartz twenty years ago.

So that everyone might have a better understanding of what we are talking about, I am posting this Google Earth view with key landmarks explained.

The wall is at the area named "cart gate". This may be a bit of a misnomer as there is no actual gate. It is simply a paved path for carts, bicycles and pedestrians. If you go through that gate, you come into the medical center parking lots and access roads which have other "gates" to allow safe passage of golf carts. I believe that they also have designated golf cart parking areas. After that, you come to the access road for the under construction assisted living facility. They have also gone out of their way to make their facility golf cart friendly. You follow that roadway to a dirt path that is next to that water retention thingie that you see near where I've marked "dirt road created by assisted living". That dirt road is about 180 yards long and ends up at the road next to Lowe's parking lot. From there on there are no dirt roads until you get to Aldi. All of he businesses are cart friendly and most have cart parking areas. From the Aldi lot which is not shown in the photo there is another dirt path that leads to Wal-Mart. The land that that dirt path is on evidently belongs to the electric company and when the change hands a few months ago the new electric company closed it. They reopened it after a few days of protests and communication.

Sorry, for some reason, if you clicked on the photo I posted, it opened to my personal Photobucket account. I have removed the photo for that reason.

[njbchbum]

There is a difference between "aren't entitled" and "are allowed." The use of our pools in TV by outsiders has long been an issue....

still don't know who the 'outsiders' are - either from peachie or from twinklesweep! :popcorn:

[ttown]

Again, in 25 yrs of pools and clubs....close to The Gate, have never seen or heard of any outsiders.

[Mikeod]

OK. I'm confused. (Not an uncommon situation.) How is this different from the gate erected long ago that had to be torn down as it blocked access to a public road? Don't misunderstand, I'm happy there may be resolution to the problem for Villagers, but what if Lady Lake or some other entity challenges it? What if the new care facility that has advertised golf cart access and now finds its residents will not have access decides it cannot allow carts to traverse the property? And what if Mr. Brown decides likewise since he perceives his property will lose value without cart access?

After reading all these posts, I began to think that the problem isn't access for Stonecrest/Spruce Creek residents, nor is it an attempt to force people to use businesses on TV property. Rather it is because TV is selling/leasing lots for businesses within its boundaries at a premium because of golf cart access and will have a harder time doing so if businesses can buy/lease land outside TV and still be accessible by golf cart. (Fruitland Park comes to mind.) This is why I don't think you'll see a tunnel under 44 below Brownwood unless they buy all that land.

[Warren Kiefer]

The story reads:

VHA president proposes solution to golf car issue
STAFF REPORT

THE VILLAGES - Villages Homeowners Association President Bill Gottschalk accounted Tuesday a possible solution to the issue of golf cars entering and exiting the community across private property on Paradise Drive.

The VHA proposal, which Gottschalk plans to present to the Amenity Authority Committee, calls for the developer to donate to the district government the home site on Paradise Drive, which had previously been utilized as a golf car path. As a condition of that donation, the district would build and maintain a gate that would allow access to Villages residents only.

According to Gottschalk, the VHA-proposed solution is a compromised reached after hearing the various concerns of residents and meeting with both the district and the developer.

"We found that all of us-district, developer and residents-shared similar concerns about both security and convenience," he said. "Previously, at this particular location, nonresidents had unfettered access, allowing them to travel in and out of our community and utilize our facilities, paid for and maintained by Villages residents.

"At the same time, we all recognize the desire of many Villagers to access certain convenient serves, particularly medical services, like the urgent care center. In addition to these issues, the developer had a liability concern with all these golf carts passing back and forth across private property. We believe our proposed compromise balances all of these concerns and gives Villages residents both added security and greater access to needed services."

Gottschalk said the compromise is consistent with the philosophy of the Vllages Homeowners Association, which is to e an effective advocate for the residents and to work constructively with the community partners like the district and the developer to solve problems.

"We have a regular and constructive dialogue withe both, which enables us to do more than complain, but rather to actually get things domes that benefit our residents and our community." he said. "Personally, I appreciate how everyone was willing to come together to work on this issue and that the VHA could be the catalyst for this resolution."

Today's Daily Sun article is a lot of smoke and mirrors. So the president of the VHA has come up the the long sought after solution. In reality, the solution does not address the concerned residents questions and it is NOT the VHA position to provide those answers. Why after all the passing years the Developer became concerned about the safety of residents crossing private property. Harold Schwartz himself encouraged the use of that parcel of property and if I understand correctly, had a gate erected which later was ruled to be in violation and had to be removed. I am convinced that all of this wall issue could have gone better if the party who had the wall erected would have stepped up to the plate and provided the desired answers. It is still a mistake to have the VHA do the explaining. I can assure you that in the next POA bulletin there will be a well researched article with factual comments.

[oot]

What an incredibly ill-conceived solution. Using Gottschalk�s logic, allow me to restate his solution:

This VHA-proposed solution will allow TV residents unfettered access to non-resident facilities, while at the same time denying non-residents access to �our� facilities.

Can any of you who have voiced your outrage at cart path closing and its egregious denial of access to public facilities honestly say that you think this is a fair and equitable solution to all those affected by the path closure?

Furthermore, Gottschalk�s accusations are blatantly false. The golf cart bridge over 441 was approved by the state and built and maintained by Morse commercial entities, not amenity funds. So Stonecrest residents can drive through Orange Blossom Hills, over the bridge and to all of the medical and retail facilities along the west side of 441 without ever setting foot on amenity supported paths or facilities. Who does he think he�s fooling?

Now if the reason for the wall being erected was concern for liability (an often used legal smokescreen), then why not propose to have Morse donate the homesite to the town of Lady Lake or Lake county, thereby making it an extension of Paradise Drive.

I agree with you EdV. There may be people on the other side who have grown to use businesses on our side of the wall as well. They may use doctors in our community. It is a shame this whole situation ever happened in the first place.

People from communities like Stonecrest should not be able to use our pools and such...and I don't they go out of their way to do so. They have their own pool (which is really nice!) They do however, spend money at the stores, which helps keep those stores in our community.

Even if they were to drive a cart on one of the paths instead of the public streets - is it really that big of a deal. Life is short - can't we all just get along??

[njbchbum]

OK. I'm confused. (Not an uncommon situation.) How is this different from the gate erected long ago that had to be torn down as it blocked access to a public road?

my thought, too!

with apologies to edmund burke and george santayana, 'Those who ignore history are bound (or doomed) to repeat it.'

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

and my father always reminded me, 'don't count your chickens before they hatch.'

am not gonna hold my breath until that committee meets, the wall comes down and the gate goes up! i just wonder if it will be done before or after the hilltop restaurant gets reopened and/or we return for the winter!

wonder, too, when can folks schedule medical appts with doctors in the medical campus area and use their golf cart to get their?
Evidently you're not alone. I went by there on my bicycle about an hour ago and there were about 50 people demonstrating, handing out leaflets and asking people to sign petitions.
Personally, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt and see what happens. If we don't see any progress or at least hear something within the next week or so then I'd say it's time for all that.
In the meantime, we hear that a solution has been reached and we have no real reason to doubt that.

[Steve9930]

I had read a post sometime back that gave the history of the gate and how Lady Lake had forced the gate open to all because it said you could not selectively block access to a public road. If this post was correct then it will eventually revert back to where it all was prior to the building of the wall. What an exercise in futility. What I'm delighted with is the people that needed access to the facilities apparently will get their access back.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

OK. I'm confused. (Not an uncommon situation.) How is this different from the gate erected long ago that had to be torn down as it blocked access to a public road?

I'm not familiar with the gate that was erected a long time ago. The land on which this wall has been erected is privately owned. It is basically a house lot which has never been sold.

I am hoping that the solution that was announced by the VHA comes to fruition soon as from what I understand, the developer could simply sell that lot or build a house on it.

[Steve9930]

I agree with you EdV. There may be people on the other side who have grown to use businesses on our side of the wall as well. They may use doctors in our community. It is a shame this whole situation ever happened in the first place.

People from communities like Stonecrest should not be able to use our pools and such...and I don't they go out of their way to do so. They have their own pool (which is really nice!) They do however, spend money at the stores, which helps keep those stores in our community.

Even if they were to drive a cart on one of the paths instead of the public streets - is it really that big of a deal. Life is short - can't we all just get along??

Always pleasant to read a post full of common sense. Thanks.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

What an incredibly ill-conceived solution. Using Gottschalk’s logic, allow me to restate his solution:

This VHA-proposed solution will allow TV residents unfettered access to non-resident facilities, while at the same time denying non-residents access to ‘our’ facilities.

Can any of you who have voiced your outrage at cart path closing and its egregious denial of access to public facilities honestly say that you think this is a fair and equitable solution to all those affected by the path closure?

Furthermore, Gottschalk’s accusations are blatantly false. The golf cart bridge over 441 was approved by the state and built and maintained by Morse commercial entities, not amenity funds. So Stonecrest residents can drive through Orange Blossom Hills, over the bridge and to all of the medical and retail facilities along the west side of 441 without ever setting foot on amenity supported paths or facilities. Who does he think he’s fooling?

Now if the reason for the wall being erected was concern for liability (an often used legal smokescreen), then why not propose to have Morse donate the homesite to the town of Lady Lake or Lake county, thereby making it an extension of Paradise Drive.

I think that the concern is that residents of Stonecrest are coming over here and going to the Town Squares which are often very crowded. There has also been some talk that some of them have snuck onto the executive golf courses after hours and may use the pools and rec centers. I've been to pools and rec centers on several occasions where no one has asked for my ID. In fact some of the pools only have a staff member check every hour or so and even then, unless they see something very suspicious they don't go around and check IDs. Those are certainly not public facilities.
I don't know about the cart paths or multi modal paths in the Villages. Are they considered public facilities or are they paid for with our amenity fees?
Isn't the cart path at the end of the bridge through the dog park an amenity support path?
If the lot is deeded to the VHA does it not become an amenities supported path?
Isn't it the duty of the VHA to see to the needs of Villages residents? Why should they be concerned about people from outside the Villages?
As far as making it an extension of Paradise Dr., I believe that would require that cars be allowed to pass through. If the town or county owned it, what would prevent them from selling it as a house lot?

[Mr. Grampi II]

I have been following this issue since the original post. I do not post much for a lot of reasons but primarily as I do not have the bottomless reserve of diplomacy that Gracie and others have demonstrated, I also do not share the disdain for the developer that some have expressed.....

I have been coming to the Villages since the early 90's, my parents rented there every year and some of my fondest memories are on the historic side, the people there are very nice. I own my own home here now and I took my mom down the path to Lowes in May, it was a trip down memory lane for her and I look forward to being able to do so again when I return in September.

By all outward appearances this was handled very poorly and we may not ever know the real story. I really feel for the folks impacted...

I hope this proposal is accepted and this is resolved, even though it is a far from perfect solution. For those of us that view the Developer as the devil (again, I do not share your view) I offer the following, as a young boy my grandmother once told me "we should make every attempt to avoid making a deal with the devil, but left with no other choice, we should take some comfort in knowing the devil keeps his word"....

[TVMayor]

The story reads:

VHA president proposes solution to golf car issue
STAFF REPORT

THE VILLAGES - Villages Homeowners Association President Bill Gottschalk accounted Tuesday a possible solution to the issue of golf cars entering and exiting the community across private property on Paradise Drive.

The VHA proposal, which Gottschalk plans to present to the Amenity Authority Committee, calls for the developer to donate to the district government the home site on Paradise Drive, which had previously been utilized as a golf car path. As a condition of that donation, the district would build and maintain a gate that would allow access to Villages residents only.

According to Gottschalk, the VHA-proposed solution is a compromised reached after hearing the various concerns of residents and meeting with both the district and the developer.

"We found that all of us-district, developer and residents-shared similar concerns about both security and convenience," he said. "Previously, at this particular location, nonresidents had unfettered access, allowing them to travel in and out of our community and utilize our facilities, paid for and maintained by Villages residents.

"At the same time, we all recognize the desire of many Villagers to access certain convenient serves, particularly medical services, like the urgent care center. In addition to these issues, the developer had a liability concern with all these golf carts passing back and forth across private property. We believe our proposed compromise balances all of these concerns and gives Villages residents both added security and greater access to needed services."

Gottschalk said the compromise is consistent with the philosophy of the Vllages Homeowners Association, which is to e an effective advocate for the residents and to work constructively with the community partners like the district and the developer to solve problems.

"We have a regular and constructive dialogue withe both, which enables us to do more than complain, but rather to actually get things domes that benefit our residents and our community." he said. "Personally, I appreciate how everyone was willing to come together to work on this issue and that the VHA could be the catalyst for this resolution."
This is a joke, the VHA president has concerns about security so he proposes locking the back door and leaving the front door wide open.