Cart path closing

[EdV]

It's even more ironic when you realize that I have a street legal golf cart and don't use that cart path. When I need to access the public facilities on the west side of 441, I cross over at Buenos Aires Blvd. across from Lowes.

[mulligan]

I could be wrong ( I was, possibly a couple of times), but as I read today's Daily Sun article, the key component of the proposed solution is deeding the lot inside the wall to the VCDD, thereby rendering the access to a public road theory moot. Now, they can restrict access as they see fit.

[circletrack]

The cart path under discussion has been paved and fully-maintained (with landscaping and lights) for over a decade and has been safely used by many people on a regular basis.

I was referring to where that paved path leads to. Several have said it moves through parking lots and other "workarounds" through grass. Even the Channel 9 report discussed this.

[schwarz]

Thats not true. My folks have lived here 20 years, and that path has never been closed. Ive been told that a meeting is planned at the lady lake town hall, by the post office monday night at 6.

[ttown]

It leads to a road. On that road are Drs offices and medical centers. Beyond that it leads to another road...then a patch of dirt..well traveled. Then another road.

[graciegirl]

Thats not true. My folks have lived here 20 years, and that path has never been closed. Ive been told that a meeting is planned at the lady lake town hall, by the post office monday night at 6.

WHY?

Why don't you just wait and see?

Good grief. I can see why there have been so many wars.

Keep calm and carry on.

[oot]

I think that the concern is that residents of Stonecrest are coming over here and going to the Town Squares which are often very crowded. There has also been some talk that some of them have snuck onto the executive golf courses after hours and may use the pools and rec centers. I've been to pools and rec centers on several occasions where no one has asked for my ID. In fact some of the pools only have a staff member check every hour or so and even then, unless they see something very suspicious they don't go around and check IDs. Those are certainly not public facilities.
I don't know about the cart paths or multi modal paths in the Villages. Are they considered public facilities or are they paid for with our amenity fees?
Isn't the cart path at the end of the bridge through the dog park an amenity support path?
If the lot is deeded to the VHA does it not become an amenities supported path?
Isn't it the duty of the VHA to see to the needs of Villages residents? Why should they be concerned about people from outside the Villages?
As far as making it an extension of Paradise Dr., I believe that would require that cars be allowed to pass through. If the town or county owned it, what would prevent them from selling it as a house lot?

I understand the concern, but really they have a beautiful pool in Stonecrest already. Would you really want to drive that distance to go into our pools when you have one so close to home? They have their own clubhouse and golf course as well. We have even golfed over there and it was very nice.

Granted they may come to the town squares to shop or listen to the music but so can many others as they are public and anyone can drive there. Heck, before we bought our house we spent 4 years coming on vacation and did the same. We rented a cart and used the paths and stayed at the hotels. I don't think we were awful, but were checking to see if we wanted to move here. We looked at Stonecrest as well. In the end, we chose the villages because we had MANY golf courses to choose from, and Stonecrest only had one.

I guess I am saying there are many outsiders using "The Villages" in one way or another. You never know, one of those outsiders may become your neighbor someday!

[CFrance]

I could be wrong ( I was, possibly a couple of times), but as I read today's Daily Sun article, the key component of the proposed solution is deeding the lot inside the wall to the VCDD, thereby rendering the access to a public road theory moot. Now, they can restrict access as they see fit.

Aha... that makes perfect sense.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I could be wrong ( I was, possibly a couple of times), but as I read today's Daily Sun article, the key component of the proposed solution is deeding the lot inside the wall to the VCDD, thereby rendering the access to a public road theory moot. Now, they can restrict access as they see fit.

That would make a lot of sense.

[janmcn]

There are trailers for sale on Craig's List along SR44 that are advertising that they are golf-cart accessible to Paddock Square.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I understand the concern, but really they have a beautiful pool in Stonecrest already. Would you really want to drive that distance to go into our pools when you have one so close to home? They have their own clubhouse and golf course as well. We have even golfed over there and it was very nice.

Granted they may come to the town squares to shop or listen to the music but so can many others as they are public and anyone can drive there. Heck, before we bought our house we spent 4 years coming on vacation and did the same. We rented a cart and used the paths and stayed at the hotels. I don't think we were awful, but were checking to see if we wanted to move here. We looked at Stonecrest as well. In the end, we chose the villages because we had MANY golf courses to choose from, and Stonecrest only had one.

I guess I am saying there are many outsiders using "The Villages" in one way or another. You never know, one of those outsiders may become your neighbor someday!

I'm not familiar with all of the facilities at Stonecrest nor the fees associated with them or restrictions on them. If have fee for play golf, then it might be attractive to them to slip over here after 7pm and get in some free golf. Is it possible that they have to pay an additional fee to use their pool. If so maybe they have figured out that they can use ours for free. We also have a hot tub at the South Side Pool and perhaps people are using that.

At any rate, this is all speculation and we don't know what the whole story is and may never know. I'm more concerned that the path is going to be open again.

[EdV]

I could be wrong ( I was, possibly a couple of times), but as I read today's Daily Sun article, the key component of the proposed solution is deeding the lot inside the wall to the VCDD, thereby rendering the access to a public road theory moot. Now, they can restrict access as they see fit.

The VCCDD is a municipal district. It cannot grant selective access to/from an adjacent public road.

[Steve9930]

I could be wrong ( I was, possibly a couple of times), but as I read today's Daily Sun article, the key component of the proposed solution is deeding the lot inside the wall to the VCDD, thereby rendering the access to a public road theory moot. Now, they can restrict access as they see fit.

Here is a suggestion. For some reason there seems to be a perception that there are large numbers of non residents using the Village Golf Cart Paths. I smell an opportunity to make some money. Sell access stickers for say $200 per year to allow non residents to use the Golf Cart Paths. This way you could require they present proof of insurance and inspect the cart for safety. Then they would be contributing to the cost of the paths.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

This from the VHA president's statement.

the developer had a liability concern with all these golf carts passing back and forth across private property.

I'm guessing that either something happened or they got a new lawyer who decided that this was a liability issue. Perhaps an annual review by his insurance company made him aware of this potential problem.

By giving the property to the VHA it exempts the developer from any potential law suits, and allows the gate to be open.

This is just speculation on my part which I generally try to stay away from.

[oot]

I'm not familiar with all of the facilities at Stonecrest nor the fees associated with them or restrictions on them. If have fee for play golf, then it might be attractive to them to slip over here after 7pm and get in some free golf. Is it possible that they have to pay an additional fee to use their pool. If so maybe they have figured out that they can use ours for free. We also have a hot tub at the South Side Pool and perhaps people are using that.

At any rate, this is all speculation and we don't know what the whole story is and may never know. I'm more concerned that the path is going to be open again.

Still doubt the Stonecrest issue is as bad as people make it out to be, but agree that the primary concern here is to get the path open again:). They should have never made the change to begin with, especially in the manner which it was done.

[EdV]

I understand the concern, but really they have a beautiful pool in Stonecrest already. Would you really want to drive that distance to go into our pools when you have one so close to home? They have their own clubhouse and golf course as well. We have even golfed over there and it was very nice.

Granted they may come to the town squares to shop or listen to the music but so can many others as they are public and anyone can drive there. Heck, before we bought our house we spent 4 years coming on vacation and did the same. We rented a cart and used the paths and stayed at the hotels. I don't think we were awful, but were checking to see if we wanted to move here. We looked at Stonecrest as well. In the end, we chose the villages because we had MANY golf courses to choose from, and Stonecrest only had one.

I guess I am saying there are many outsiders using "The Villages" in one way or another. You never know, one of those outsiders may become your neighbor someday!

So True oot

And you have to ask why there seems to be so much attention drawn to Stonecrest which has all of the amenities that TV has and yet little mention is made of the thousands of homeowners in other adjacent communities that have no recreational facilities at all.

Take that large residential area on the north side of Rt 42. No pools, no tennis or pick ball courts and so on.

Doesn’t it make more sense that any non-residents coming in and using TV amenities are likely to be from surrounding communities with no recreational facilities and not Stonecrest residents.

And those that are concerned that Stonecrest residents on carts may possibly cross over a short piece of amenity path remember that every TV resident that ever came over on a cart to play the Links of Stonecrest, was driving on roads paid for and maintained by Stonecrest residents.

Never the less, those that are focusing their attention on Stonecrest’s use of the cart path, are playing into the wall builders hands by diverting their attention away from the problem.

[tucson]

People from other communities cannot use TV's amenities such as pools, tennis,pickleball courts,etc. Only the restuarants,stores,squares,Champion GC's, etc,

[Steve9930]

I'm not familiar with all of the facilities at Stonecrest nor the fees associated with them or restrictions on them. If have fee for play golf, then it might be attractive to them to slip over here after 7pm and get in some free golf. Is it possible that they have to pay an additional fee to use their pool. If so maybe they have figured out that they can use ours for free. We also have a hot tub at the South Side Pool and perhaps people are using that.

At any rate, this is all speculation and we don't know what the whole story is and may never know. I'm more concerned that the path is going to be open again.

No one from Stonecrest is using any of the Villages pools or Golf Courses unless they are paying greens fees. There is no additional fees in Stonecrest for the use of the pools, gym, or community centers. Golf is free if you are a member of the CC otherwise there is a cost to play golf witch includes a cart. There are many Villagers that Golf at Stonecrest because of the congestion on the Village Courses. Now you know the rest of the story.

[tucson]

No one from Stonecrest is using any of the Villages pools or Golf Courses unless they are paying greens fees. There is no additional fees in Stonecrest for the use of the pools, gym, or community centers. Golf is free if you are a member of the CC otherwise there is a cost to play golf witch includes a cart. There are many Villagers that Golf at Stonecrest because of the congestion on the Village Courses. Now you know the rest of the story.

As well as the Del Webb golf courses, the Villagers are here everyday golfing, and a lot of them.

[Peachie]

I understand the concern, but really they have a beautiful pool in Stonecrest already. Would you really want to drive that distance to go into our pools when you have one so close to home? They have their own clubhouse and golf course as well. We have even golfed over there and it was very nice.

Granted they may come to the town squares to shop or listen to the music but so can many others as they are public and anyone can drive there. Heck, before we bought our house we spent 4 years coming on vacation and did the same. We rented a cart and used the paths and stayed at the hotels. I don't think we were awful, but were checking to see if we wanted to move here. We looked at Stonecrest as well. In the end, we chose the villages because we had MANY golf courses to choose from, and Stonecrest only had one.

I guess I am saying there are many outsiders using "The Villages" in one way or another. You never know, one of those outsiders may become your neighbor someday!



Good morning, Oot! I think you could swing that door the other way and allow Villagers carts to come and go anytime in Stonecrest because anyone living or visiting The Villages might buy in there someday and we are their neighbors. No one would probably want to use their pool while they're there... and I'm talking access further than the restaurant or golf course.

As a Villager YOU are paying a premium because you have golf cart access to anything within The Villages owned property. Stonecrest does not pay that premium is more than welcome to come into the Squares in their street vehicles to shop and enjoy the entertainment, I believe Stonecresters are very nice people. Also take into consideration that soon Spruce Creek would have been able to use the same access. My friend, who lives in Spruce Creek, was looking forward to using that entrance and has made abundantly clear that she would never buy in The Villages, too expensive, (money is not an issue for her).

We have been reassured in these postings that only a couple of Stonecrest carts use this path so that impact should be very slight to that community but I already know one Spruce Creek resident excited about the highway crossing opening up so she could use The Villages cart paths.

[Steve9930]

Good morning, Oot! I think you could swing that door the other way and allow Villagers carts to come and go anytime in Stonecrest because anyone living or visiting The Villages might buy in there someday and we are their neighbors. No one would probably want to use their pool while they're there... and I'm talking access further than the restaurant or golf course.

As a Villager YOU are paying a premium because you have golf cart access to anything within The Villages owned property. Stonecrest does not pay that premium is more than welcome to come into the Squares in their street vehicles to shop and enjoy the entertainment, I believe Stonecresters are very nice people. Also take into consideration that soon Spruce Creek would have been able to use the same access. My friend, who lives in Spruce Creek, was looking forward to using that entrance and has made abundantly clear that she would never buy in The Villages, too expensive, (money is not an issue for her).

We have been reassured in these postings that only a couple of Stonecrest carts use this path so that impact should be very slight to that community but I already know one Spruce Creek resident excited about the highway crossing opening up so she could use The Villages cart paths.

Still a very small percentage at most. In the beginning there was more incentive to go to the shops at SS. However now with Wal-Mart, Lowes, Bells, Cracker Barrel, Sonic and soon access to the Mikiee dees and the Shops of Spruce Creek the incentive diminished. Outside Golf Carts are allowed in Stonecrest through the front gates. Although many people say they are headed to the restaurant or golf course there is no one traveling around checking who and where a golf cart originates.

[chuckinca]

For Info:

Villages residents often use Stonecrest facilities as both guests of Stonecrest residents and unauthorized use. Stonecrest has some facilities that the Villages do not; such as 8 lighted pickle ball courts, enclosed swimming pool and exercise facilities (all of which are at no additional fee to Stonecrest residents). Village residents have been know to use the Stonecrest golf courses, swimming pools, lighted pickle ball courts and exercise room after hours. The lighted pickle ball courts are reserved every Thursday night for use by expert players from other communities - mainly the Villages.

Stonecrest and other tri-county residents can not be guests and use villages facilities other than what is open to the general the public.

I have two brothers and sisters in law, an aunt and uncle and many friends who are villages residents and can not be their guest at a village pool, exec golf course, or other resident only facility. Stonecrest doesn't have resident only facilities.

.

[PennBF]

I for one apologizes to the Developer if he agrees to take the wall down and put in a "control gate". If he put the wall up because the new Assisted Living Center was lined up to use the streets and carts of the north side of the villages (Orange Blossom,etc.) across from 441/27 along with the other communities outside of The Villages using them then I for one totally support him. Why should the north end be saddled with outside traffic. The roads, paths etc were not built to support that load. I don't want to hear why not open up that part of TV's to all anymore than I would expect the residents of the various villages would welcome heavy traffic in their community. Believe me, using the pools as an example would be abused. We already get outsiders in the pool who don't pay for the upkeep, etc.
I believe a gate that requires an "opener" to open the gate is both appropriate and the right thing. Think how smart the builders of the Assisted Living were. They built a cart path and made everyone think it was for The Villagers. Oops' not so it was for them to have open usage of the Orange Blossom Villages and Village residency without paying the freight.
The only thing that I would seriously fault the Developer for was his lack of good PR people. He has to have the worse PR staff in the country..:ho:

[tucson]

Good article posted on Facebook...

[njbchbum]

People from other communities cannot use TV's amenities such as pools, tennis,pickleball courts,etc. Only the restuarants,stores,squares,Champion GC's, etc,

those would be the honest folks! there are others who believe that rules were not made to be folllowed by them!

[Peachie]

I for one apologizes to the Developer if he agrees to take the wall down and put in a "control gate". If he put the wall up because the new Assisted Living Center was lined up to use the streets and carts of the north side of the villages (Orange Blossom,etc.) across from 441/27 along with the other communities outside of The Villages using them then I for one totally support him. Why should the north end be saddled with outside traffic. The roads, paths etc were not built to support that load. I don't want to hear why not open up that part of TV's to all anymore than I would expect the residents of the various villages would welcome heavy traffic in their community. Believe me, using the pools as an example would be abused. We already get outsiders in the pool who don't pay for the upkeep, etc.
I believe a gate that requires an "opener" to open the gate is both appropriate and the right thing. Think how smart the builders of the Assisted Living were. They built a cart path and made everyone think it was for The Villagers. Oops' not so it was for them to have open usage of the Orange Blossom Villages and Village residency without paying the freight.
The only thing that I would seriously fault the Developer for was his lack of good PR people. He has to have the worse PR staff in the country..:ho:


Very thoughtful, nice post Penn!

[graciegirl]

Bless your heart Penn.

[NoMoSno]

Good morning, Oot! I think you could swing that door the other way and allow Villagers carts to come and go anytime in Stonecrest because anyone living or visiting The Villages might buy in there someday and we are their neighbors. No one would probably want to use their pool while they're there... and I'm talking access further than the restaurant or golf course.

As a Villager YOU are paying a premium because you have golf cart access to anything within The Villages owned property. Stonecrest does not pay that premium is more than welcome to come into the Squares in their street vehicles to shop and enjoy the entertainment, I believe Stonecresters are very nice people. Also take into consideration that soon Spruce Creek would have been able to use the same access. My friend, who lives in Spruce Creek, was looking forward to using that entrance and has made abundantly clear that she would never buy in The Villages, too expensive, (money is not an issue for her).

We have been reassured in these postings that only a couple of Stonecrest carts use this path so that impact should be very slight to that community but I already know one Spruce Creek resident excited about the highway crossing opening up so she could use The Villages cart paths.

Rest assured Peachie. There are far fewer Spruce Creek residents interested
in getting to SS stores and beyond, than you think there are.
Besides Spruce Creek has several other direct access points to TV property, that have no gates...:popcorn:

[oot]

Good morning, Oot! I think you could swing that door the other way and allow Villagers carts to come and go anytime in Stonecrest because anyone living or visiting The Villages might buy in there someday and we are their neighbors. No one would probably want to use their pool while they're there... and I'm talking access further than the restaurant or golf course.

As a Villager YOU are paying a premium because you have golf cart access to anything within The Villages owned property. Stonecrest does not pay that premium is more than welcome to come into the Squares in their street vehicles to shop and enjoy the entertainment, I believe Stonecresters are very nice people. Also take into consideration that soon Spruce Creek would have been able to use the same access. My friend, who lives in Spruce Creek, was looking forward to using that entrance and has made abundantly clear that she would never buy in The Villages, too expensive, (money is not an issue for her).

We have been reassured in these postings that only a couple of Stonecrest carts use this path so that impact should be very slight to that community but I already know one Spruce Creek resident excited about the highway crossing opening up so she could use The Villages cart paths.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but this Stonecrest thing has always bothered me overall. I understand I pay more to live in the Villages. I have access to a ton a clubs, many golf courses, many places I play various sports - more things than I can mention on how wonderful this place is. I also understand the fees we pay fund the paths.

I can go to Stonecrest anytime I like, just as they can come to the Villages just as they like. I have played their golf course, and ate at their restaurant, as they can on our side if they pay for golf. They don't get it for free.

If a visitor rents a cart should they be prohibited from riding the paths? Should we restrict the hotels from allowing people from parking in the lots for fear they may use a trail? Maybe ban the folk who rent the carts? Do you really think a cart riding down the path is going to cause such wear and tear that our fees are going to skyrocket?

There are people in Stonecrest, just as we have people here, which used that path. It has been that way for years and years. The wall is the real issue and it should never have been installed in the manner it was. I still feel the Stonecrest issue was never the reason for the wall to begin with.

[chuckinca]

Good morning, Oot! I think you could swing that door the other way and allow Villagers carts to come and go anytime in Stonecrest because anyone living or visiting The Villages might buy in there someday and we are their neighbors. No one would probably want to use their pool while they're there... and I'm talking access further than the restaurant or golf course.



Villagers in carts can also to be used to visit Stonecrest residents - best to ask your friend to call the gate so you can get a pass. All Stonecrest residents were issued guest passes to give to their guests so that they can use all Stonecrest facilities with the resident.

Stonecrest residents can not be guests in the Villages.

Villagers in carts can visit the home builder, Armstrong Homes, and get a guided tour.

Villagers in carts can make arrangements the realitors to visit homes for sale.

Villagers in carts can not be given unlimited access to Stonecrest - it's a gated community with private roads.

.

[Bizdoc]

I could be wrong ( I was, possibly a couple of times), but as I read today's Daily Sun article, the key component of the proposed solution is deeding the lot inside the wall to the VCDD, thereby rendering the access to a public road theory moot. Now, they can restrict access as they see fit.

Reading this made a light bulb (albeit a dim one) go. Part of the dispute with the IRS is whether or not the VCDD is a "public entity". The IRS argues that it is not and thus can't act like a public entity.

However, if the State of Florida weighs in by insisting that the piece of land is now owned by a public entity (and thus must be publically accessible), then it makes the IRS case much weaker. The VCDD can't be public sometimes and private sometimes.

As long as the lot is owned by the developer, it is "private property" (remember that assertion from Monday?).

Of course, I could be wrong. Never said that I was a lawyer (which I am not). And I sure am not foolish enough to sue a billionaire with a staff of lawyers just waiting for something to do.

And if you really feel compelled to "do something" send EdV, Mr Brown, and the nice folks at Harbor Chase flowers for being kind and supportive when they did not have to be.

[Steve9930]

Reading this made a light bulb (albeit a dim one) go. Part of the dispute with the IRS is whether or not the VCDD is a "public entity". The IRS argues that it is not and thus can't act like a public entity.

However, if the State of Florida weighs in by insisting that the piece of land is now owned by a public entity (and thus must be publically accessible), then it makes the IRS case much weaker. The VCDD can't be public sometimes and private sometimes.

As long as the lot is owned by the developer, it is "private property" (remember that assertion from Monday?).

Of course, I could be wrong. Never said that I was a lawyer (which I am not). And I sure am not foolish enough to sue a billionaire with a staff of lawyers just waiting for something to do.

And if you really feel compelled to "do something" send EdV, Mr Brown, and the nice folks at Harbor Chase flowers for being kind and supportive when they did not have to be.

Life is like a box of chocolates, never know what your going to get.....:-)

[Arctic Fox]

Even if they were to drive a cart on one of the paths instead of the public streets - is it really that big of a deal. Life is short - can't we all just get along??

Agreed

And what makes people think that non-Villagers only come to TV in their golf carts? Putting up a wall on our golf cart path does not stop them driving here in their cars - and using our pools if, in fact, that's what they do.

The wall inconveniences we Villagers far more than it does outsiders.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

The VCCDD is a municipal district. It cannot grant selective access to/from an adjacent public road.

Even if they own a piece of land which must be crossed in order to access that public road?

I think that every land owner has the right to say who can and cannot go on their property. Am I wrong.

[Arctic Fox]

The land on which this wall has been erected is privately owned. It is basically a house lot which has never been sold.

That is one thing that has been puzzling me.

It seems very odd that there is one vacant lot in that area, in what seems to be quite a prime location.

Why was it left unsold?

Could it be that it was always the intention to have a golf cart path there?

Maybe a long-time resident of that area can let us know the history.

[EdV]

....As a Villager YOU are paying a premium because you have golf cart access to anything within The Villages owned property....... My friend, who lives in Spruce Creek, was looking forward to using that entrance .....(and is) excited about the highway crossing opening up so she could use The Villages cart paths.

The retail and medical facilities are not “Villages owned property”. But the roads you travel on in your cart to get to those facilities are maintained with the tax dollars of all the taxpayers in the counties. As such, your friend has every right to travel on those roads whether in a car or cart.

Clearly your friend is excited about the prospect of using those roads to get to all of the medical and retail facilities. I can’t imagine you supporting this VHA blockade solution that would deny her that right and then to continue to call her your friend.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Good article posted on Facebook...

Where on Facebook? What is the Facebook address?

[Peachie]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but this Stonecrest thing has always bothered me overall. I understand I pay more to live in the Villages. I have access to a ton a clubs, many golf courses, many places I play various sports - more things than I can mention on how wonderful this place is. I also understand the fees we pay fund the paths.

I can go to Stonecrest anytime I like, just as they can come to the Villages just as they like. I have played their golf course, and ate at their restaurant, as they can on our side if they pay for golf. They don't get it for free.

If a visitor rents a cart should they be prohibited from riding the paths? Should we restrict the hotels from allowing people from parking in the lots for fear they may use a trail? Maybe ban the folk who rent the carts? Do you really think a cart riding down the path is going to cause such wear and tear that our fees are going to sky



There are people in Stonecrest, just as we have people here, which used that path. It has been that way for years and years. The wall is the real issue and it should never have been installed in the manner it was. I still feel the Stonecrest issue was never the reason for the wall to begin
with.


Oot, if you have ever rented or stayed at a motel in The Villages, you are residing in The Villages and on Villages property. That statement doesn't compare to providing a service to Stonecrest, (gate access) on a 24/7 basis for which we pay a premium.

Residents of Stonecrest, as I said earlier, I'm sure are very nice, good people, I think EdV is a good example of that. I think I'm also a very nice, neat, careful person but would you open the back door of your house and tell me or anyone in the vicinity to come in and use the TV or the kitchen or whatever anytime? We wouldn't cause any wear and tear...

The residents in Stonecrest bought there and not in The Villages for all of their own reasons and I respect that. It's a nice community.
They did not opt to live and pay amenity fees in The Villages. I guess I don't understand the philosophy that Villagers need to open their back door and provide for Stonecrest and Spruce Creek, or any other development in that area, so they may use golf cart access. Once it is established there shall be public access to that area by any golf carts, you can't go back. Is it fair to the residents in OB to lay additional cart traffic next to and past their homes?

[EdV]

Reading this made a light bulb (albeit a dim one) go. Part of the dispute with the IRS is whether or not the VCDD is a "public entity". The IRS argues that it is not and thus can't act like a public entity.

However, if the State of Florida weighs in by insisting that the piece of land is now owned by a public entity (and thus must be publically accessible), then it makes the IRS case much weaker. The VCDD can't be public sometimes and private sometimes.
.,.

First of all, it’s VCCDD not VCDD but aside from that you have misunderstood the IRS position as it now stands.

The VCCDD is a local, special purpose government under Florida law. That law includes the ability of the VCCDD to issue municipal bonds but not necessarily federally tax free municipal bonds.

It is the IRS current position that the VCCDD did not meet the IRS criteria for issuing those tax free bonds. So regardless of the final IRS outcome, the VCCDD would continue to exist as a local, special purpose government.

[Steve9930]

First of all, it’s VCCDD not VCDD but aside from that you have misunderstood the IRS position as it now stands.

The VCCDD is a local, special purpose government under Florida law. That law includes the ability of the VCCDD to issue municipal bonds but not necessarily federally tax free municipal bonds.

It is the IRS current position that the VCCDD did not meet the IRS criteria for issuing those tax free bonds. So regardless of the final IRS outcome, the VCCDD would continue to exist as a local, special purpose government.

So what is the potential burden should the IRS win their case? Just curious.

[Peachie]

The retail and medical facilities are not “Villages owned property”. But the roads you travel on in your cart to get to those facilities are maintained with the tax dollars of all the taxpayers in the counties. As such, your friend has every right to travel on those roads whether in a car or cart.

Clearly your friend is excited about the prospect of using those roads to get to all of the medical and retail facilities. I can’t imagine you supporting this VHA blockade solution that would deny her that right and then to continue to call her your friend.

EdV, I think you misunderstood my statement... I don't mind anyone using the public roads, I was referring to closing the private cart paths of The Villlages. Sorry if i wasn't clear.

[Bogie Shooter]

So what is the potential burden should the IRS win their case? Just curious.

Your curiosity can be satisfied at this site....expect to spend the afternoon.
Village Community Development Districts (http://www.districtgov.org/IRSupdate.aspx)

[Arctic Fox]

Why the sudden fixation with using Stonecrest residents as scapegoats?

I don't know how long Stonecrest has been in existence, but the cart path has been open for twenty years, ten of them as a fully-finished purpose-built paved path, so why suddenly decide that we need to keep the Stonecrest people out?

It seems far more logical that something new has triggered the building of a wall.

And a rival non-Villages assisted living center fits the bill. Especially if the owner of it and our developer have had a long-standing feud.

[Peachie]

Why the sudden fixation with using Stonecrest residents as scapegoats?

I don't know how long Stonecrest has been in existence, but the cart path has been open for twenty years, ten of them as a fully-finished purpose-built paved path, so why suddenly decide that we need to keep the Stonecrest people out?

It seems far more logical that something new has triggered the building of a wall.

And a rival non-Villages assisted living center fits the bill. Especially if the owner of it and our developer have had a long-standing feud.


If you read through the posts, you'll see that Spruce Creek and the new property developments are also included in the gate discussions. I believe Stonecrest is mentioned more often because quite a few people wonder why Stonecrest has to use the road versus The Villages cart paths not knowing that soon Spruce Creek will be able to cross 27/441 and would have access also if there is no gate.

[graciegirl]

../

[njbchbum]

snipped
I guess I don't understand the philosophy that Villagers need to open their back door and provide for Stonecrest and Spruce Creek, or any other development in that area, so they may use golf cart access. Once it is established there shall be public access to that area by any golf carts, you can't go back. Is it fair to the residents in OB to lay additional cart traffic next to and past their homes?

peachie - ever since that non-gated hole in the wall has been there access to the villages has been available to anyone. what makes you think that traffic from the outside is going to increase now? for all of the years i have been there i have never heard nor read of the area residents complaining about excessive golf cart traffic? why do you continue to raise only a slim possibility of such when no one else does? or are you just upset because 'outsiders' MIGHT be using multi-model paths that are paid for/maintained by villager's amenity fees - especially when you have no idea how many 'outsiders' use them now or MIGHT use themin the future? i just don't get your concern?

[EdV]

EdV, I think you misunderstood my statement... I don't mind anyone using the public roads, I was referring to closing the private cart paths of The Villlages. Sorry if i wasn't clear.

And what I'm trying to make clear is that there are no TV maintained cart paths anywhere in the retail areas along the west side of 441. Any of the diamond cart lanes you see in there are county maintained.

[maddie101]

Where on Facebook? What is the Facebook address?

"Proposed" Solution to The Wall (http://www.thevillagesfloridabook.com/proposed-solution-to-the-wall/)

[Arctic Fox]

If you read through the posts, you'll see that Spruce Creek and the new property developments are also included in the gate discussions.

Sorry, Peachie, I didn't mean "sudden" as in "just recent posts", I meant it as in:

Why, if they have been using that cart path for ten or more years would a wall only now be built to keep them out?

Why was a wall not built ten years ago, or as soon as Stonecrest opened?

Just seems very odd to build a wall at 6 am on a Saturday morning (and give no official explanation before or after doing so) to solve a "problem" that has been in existence for ten or more years.

And then to tell your employees and newspaper not to say or publish anything?

[Peachie]

peachie - ever since that non-gated hole in the wall has been there access to the villages has been available to anyone. what makes you think that traffic from the outside is going to increase now? for all of the years i have been there i have never heard nor read of the area residents complaining about excessive golf cart traffic? why do you continue to raise only a slim possibility of such when no one else does? or are you just upset because 'outsiders' MIGHT be using multi-model paths that are paid for/maintained by villager's amenity fees - especially when you have no idea how many 'outsiders' use them now or MIGHT use themin the future? i just don't get your concern?

njbchbum, you made the perfect point, if no non-Villagers are using the cart paths, why would it matter if a gate is placed there as it is in the rest of The Villages?

SPRUCE CREEK will soon have access to the same golf cart path for entrance into The Villages, it appears, since regular golf carts should be able to cross 27/441 shortly.

My friend in Spruce Creek told me this past spring that the scuttle butt going around Spruce Creek was that Stonecrest was upset this crossing was going to happen because Spruce Creek golf carts would have access to them but they couldn't access Spruce Creek. Stonecrest must have their expectations too.

I would think you would be delighted with the new plan because you can access business on 27/441.

[Peachie]

Sorry, Peachie, I didn't mean "sudden" as in "just recent posts", I meant it as in:

Why, if they have been using that cart path for ten or more years would a wall only now be built to keep them out.

Why was a wall not built ten years ago, or as soon as Stonecrest opened?

Just seems very odd to build a wall at 6 am on a Saturday morning (and give no explanation before or after doing so) to solve a "problem" that has been in existence for ten or more years.

I don't know why they did that, Arctic Fox, I know they tried earlier to establish the gate and then Lady Lake got in the middle of it.

The only thing I determine in my own mind for the newest gate is that with much development blossoming in that area and businesses advertising as "golf cart accessible to The Villages" the Morse's realized the urgency to replace the gate for Villagers and close the gate to the public now.

Unfortunately, the two golf carts that come into The Villages from Stonecrest got caught up in this action. (I say two golf carts because many insist hardly anyone comes in through that path from Stonecrest and I know EdV has a street legal.)

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

First of all, it’s VCCDD not VCDD but aside from that you have misunderstood the IRS position as it now stands.

The VCCDD is a local, special purpose government under Florida law. That law includes the ability of the VCCDD to issue municipal bonds but not necessarily federally tax free municipal bonds.

It is the IRS current position that the VCCDD did not meet the IRS criteria for issuing those tax free bonds. So regardless of the final IRS outcome, the VCCDD would continue to exist as a local, special purpose government.
My bill says VCDD on the top as does their letter head. If I'm not mistaken it stands for Villages Community Development District.

What does VCCDD stand for?

[Peachie]

The retail and medical facilities are not “Villages owned property”. But the roads you travel on in your cart to get to those facilities are maintained with the tax dollars of all the taxpayers in the counties. As such, your friend has every right to travel on those roads whether in a car or cart.

Clearly your friend is excited about the prospect of using those roads to get to all of the medical and retail facilities. I can’t imagine you supporting this VHA blockade solution that would deny her that right and then to continue to call her your friend.


I now understand your message EdV. There are a lot of details and, of course, I don't want to divulge too many for the fear of identifying my friend.

My friend will never worry financially. I will only go to fast food restaurants with her now after watching her tip $1.00 for her meals; no matter the price or special requests she made, she does not use the medical facilities in that area, she is in The Villages almost daily and drives there in her car. Most of all, she should never drive across 27/441 in her golf cart but I know she would if access is provided to her and I don't think her husband would stop her.

So my friend is really being denied nothing and the people at Stonecrest will be much safer if she isn't driving her golf cart in their area.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

"Proposed" Solution to The Wall (http://www.thevillagesfloridabook.com/proposed-solution-to-the-wall/)

Wow!! I'm famous.

[Steve9930]

njbchbum, you made the perfect point, if no non-Villagers are using the cart paths, why would it matter if a gate is placed there as it is in the rest of The Villages?

SPRUCE CREEK will soon have access to the same golf cart path for entrance into The Villages, it appears, since regular golf carts should be able to cross 27/441 shortly.

My friend in Spruce Creek told me this past spring that the scuttle butt going around Spruce Creek was that Stonecrest was upset this crossing was going to happen because Spruce Creek golf carts would have access to them but they couldn't access Spruce Creek. Stonecrest must have their expectations too.

I would think you would be delighted with the new plan because you can access business on 27/441.

Well here is the straight skinny on the Stonecrest vs Sruce Creek 441/27 crossing. There was some concern to the safety of the individuals that would be using the access road to get to Wal-Mart. The access road has some blind corners and people are not familiar with seeing Golf Carts on this road. There have been a number of fender benders on the road section that leads to the Stonecrest Gate and the crossing road. Cars coming off 441/27 into Stonecrest are a little speedy and may not be aware of the crossing traffic. A collision between an auto and a Golf Cart has the Auto winning every time. Some of the Stonecrest residents were also interested in getting access to the shopping on the West Side of 441/27 which would require access out of Spruce Creek's side gate. In turn Stonecrest would need to give them access to Stonecrest's direct Wal-Mart gates. The end result is Stonecrest approved Spruce Creek's usage of the access roads as far as I know. There are always people that complain no matter what happens. The bottom line is Stonecrest is very happy that Spruce Creek will be able to get to Wal-Mart and the other shops on the East Side of 441/27 legally.

[Peachie]

Well here is the straight skinny on the Stonecrest vs Sruce Creek 441/27 crossing. There was some concern to the safety of the individuals that would be using the access road to get to Wal-Mart. The access road has some blind corners and people are not familiar with seeing Golf Carts on this road. There have been a number of fender benders on the road section that leads to the Stonecrest Gate and the crossing road. Cars coming off 441/27 into Stonecrest are a little speedy and may not be aware of the crossing traffic. A collision between an auto and a Golf Cart has the Auto winning every time. Some of the Stonecrest residents were also interested in getting access to the shopping on the West Side of 441/27 which would require access out of Spruce Creek's side gate. In turn Stonecrest would need to give them access to Stonecrest's direct Wal-Mart gates. The end result is Stonecrest approved Spruce Creek's usage of the access roads as far as I know. There are always people that complain no matter what happens. The bottom line is Stonecrest is very happy that Spruce Creek will not be able to get to Wal-Mart and the other shops on the East Side of 441/27 legally.


So what you are saying, Steve, is that Stonecrest has blocked Spruce Creek access? Interesting....

[Steve9930]

So what you are saying, Steve, is that Stonecrest has blocked Spruce Creek access? Interesting....

No they have not blocked Spruce Creeks access. Spruce Creek will be able to get to all the shopping via the access road that runs on the outside of the Stonecrest facility. As far as I understand at this point the crossing is approved by the State and now they are just waiting for the implementation. I believe the speed limit is 25 MPH on that road.

[OldManTime]

Problem solved, thanks to the town of Lady Lake!

[Peachie]

The bottom line is Stonecrest is very happy that Spruce Creek will not be able to get to Wal-Mart and the other shops on the East Side of 441/27 legally.

So you meant, "will be able to get Wal-Mart, etc.?"

[chuckinca]

My friend in Spruce Creek told me this past spring that the scuttle butt going around Spruce Creek was that Stonecrest was upset this crossing was going to happen because Spruce Creek golf carts would have access to them but they couldn't access Spruce Creek. Stonecrest must have their expectations too.


People in Stonecrest voted to approve the crossing.

The owner of the frontage roads, Stonecrest Commercial, approved the crossing.

Spruce Creek carts will have access to the frontage roads not access into Stonecrest.

People in Stonecrest feel that Spruce Creek should give us cart access thru Spruce Creek property to the stores adjacent to their property to the south. This could be in the grass in front of Spruce Creek.

[Steve9930]

Problem solved, thanks to the town of Lady Lake!

Ok, now that you have my attention, details please?

[Steve9930]

So you meant, "will be able to get Wal-Mart, etc.?"

Yes, sorry about the typo. I should proof read my typing. I apologize for the misrepresentation.

[NoMoSno]

Well here is the straight skinny on the Stonecrest vs Sruce Creek 441/27 crossing. There was some concern to the safety of the individuals that would be using the access road to get to Wal-Mart. The access road has some blind corners and people are not familiar with seeing Golf Carts on this road. There have been a number of fender benders on the road section that leads to the Stonecrest Gate and the crossing road. Cars coming off 441/27 into Stonecrest are a little speedy and may not be aware of the crossing traffic. A collision between an auto and a Golf Cart has the Auto winning every time. Some of the Stonecrest residents were also interested in getting access to the shopping on the West Side of 441/27 which would require access out of Spruce Creek's side gate. In turn Stonecrest would need to give them access to Stonecrest's direct Wal-Mart gates. The end result is Stonecrest approved Spruce Creek's usage of the access roads as far as I know. There are always people that complain no matter what happens. The bottom line is Stonecrest is very happy that Spruce Creek will not be able to get to Wal-Mart and the other shops on the East Side of 441/27 legally.
Sorry Steve you have wrong information, and its off topic to this thread.

[PennBF]

Artic Fox. I think one reason the gate was not important 10 years ago is because they had not built a rather sizable Assisted Living Home. Their (Assisted Living) building a cart path that would accomadate their clients and provide them with free unencumbered access to Blossom roads, cart path, and the Villages was a very clever move. Of course there are significant costs associated with opening up The Villages to the "outside" and the residents are ones who bear these costs. We even have controls over family and friends visitors.
Anyone can drive into The Villages and experience the life style but when it is suggested they become a pseudo residents without bearing any of the costs or worse have a better position than family and friends then it has gone too far. As I said, if it was the Developers intent to shut this all down and set up a controlled entrance through Village Gate cards then I for one cheer him.:ho:

[Steve9930]

Sorry Steve you have wrong information, and its off topic to this thread.


Sorry. I made a typo.

[ttown]

The first part of Lauren Lane was an empty lot..or two back to back empty lots. That's why the jog.

[chuckinca]

Well here is the straight skinny on the Stonecrest vs Sruce Creek 441/27 crossing . . . The bottom line is Stonecrest is very happy that Spruce Creek will not be able to get to Wal-Mart and the other shops on the East Side of 441/27 legally.

Should read:
The bottom line is Stonecrest is NOT very happy that Spruce Creek will xxx be able to get to Wal-Mart and the other shops on the East Side of 441/27 legally.

Stonecrest people are concerned about the Spruce Creek cart traffic on the frontage roads that are very dangerous due to 441/27 drivers avoiding the light at Sonic/CVS into Walmart by driving thru the Stonecrest frontage roads. Spruce Creek could have asked for permission to cross at the Sonic/CVS light crossing as they have access to it thru their back gate. A legal cart crossing there would have been available for use by Spuce Creek, Stonecrest and the Villages and would have been great for those stores and a safer drive for Spruce Creek Carts.

Stonecrest has automatic cart gates north and south of Walmart and do not usually drive carts on the frontage roads.

.

[Steve9930]

Should read:
The bottom line is Stonecrest is NOT very happy that Spruce Creek will xxx be able to get to Wal-Mart and the other shops on the East Side of 441/27 legally.

Stonecrest people are concerned about the Spruce Creek cart traffic on the frontage roads that are very dangerous due to 441/27 drivers avoiding the light at Sonic/CVS into Walmart by driving thru the Stonecrest frontage roads. Spruce Creek could have asked for permission to cross at the Sonic/CVS light crossing as they have access to it thru their back gate. A legal cart crossing there would have been available for use by Spuce Creek, Stonecrest and the Villages and would have been great for those stores and a safer drive for Spruce Creek Carts.

Stonecrest has automatic cart gates north and south of Walmart and do not usually drive carts on the frontage roads.

.

A Golf Cart Crossing at the CVS and Wal-Mart is the most dangerous place to cross with a Golf Cart. This is why the State denied the crossing at that location.

[gomoho]

Artic Fox. Anyone can drive into The Villages and experience the life style but when it is suggested they become a pseudo residents without bearing any of the costs or worse have a better position than family and friends then it has gone too far. As I said, if it was the Developers intent to shut this all down and set up a controlled entrance through Village Gate cards then I for one cheer him.:ho:

How does one become a pseudo resident? what does that entitle one to? why would anyone want to become a pseudo resident? what in the world are you talking about???

If people were so enamored with The Villages I think they would probably live here and not be pseudo residents that have to sneak around when it gets dark to use our pools and golf courses. I think we're thinking too much of what we have here and honestly don't believe people are wearing out the cart paths to use our "stuff". I welcome them to come in and support the business here - more business keeps prices down for the rest of us.:a040:

[Peachie]

Yes, sorry about the typo. I should proof read my typing. I apologize for the misrepresentation.

No prob, thanks for the clarification and if you live in Stonecrest, watch out for my friend in her cart :faint:

[Arctic Fox]

Wow!! I'm famous.

Maybe you can sign autographs at the Town Hall meeting?

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

The retail and medical facilities are not “Villages owned property”. But the roads you travel on in your cart to get to those facilities are maintained with the tax dollars of all the taxpayers in the counties. As such, your friend has every right to travel on those roads whether in a car or cart.

Clearly your friend is excited about the prospect of using those roads to get to all of the medical and retail facilities. I can’t imagine you supporting this VHA blockade solution that would deny her that right and then to continue to call her your friend.

But the path connecting the public Paradise Road to the public access parking lot of the medical center is private property. We certainly have every right to travel on the public roads where golf carts are allowed and so the the residents of Stonecrest. But we are traveling on the private property path at the pleasure of the owner of that property.

[Arctic Fox]

I think one reason the gate was not important 10 years ago is because they had not built a rather sizable Assisted Living Home.

As I said, if it was the Developers intent to shut this all down and set up a controlled entrance through Village Gate cards then I for one cheer him.:ho:

I certainly think that the building of the new ALC is the reason for the wall, Penn, I just can't get my head round why it was built "during the night".

As you say, though, it would all be moot if a card-controlled gate is introduced.

[njbchbum]

njbchbum, you made the perfect point, if no non-Villagers are using the cart paths, why would it matter if a gate is placed there as it is in the rest of The Villages?

SPRUCE CREEK will soon have access to the same golf cart path for entrance into The Villages, it appears, since regular golf carts should be able to cross 27/441 shortly.

My friend in Spruce Creek told me this past spring that the scuttle butt going around Spruce Creek was that Stonecrest was upset this crossing was going to happen because Spruce Creek golf carts would have access to them but they couldn't access Spruce Creek. Stonecrest must have their expectations too.

I would think you would be delighted with the new plan because you can access business on 27/441.

no, peachie, you twisted the point! it's not mine! what does it matter if a few non-villagers use the multi-model paths?

and you failed to respond to my questions. so i will repost them here:
why do you continue to raise only a slim possibility of such when no one else does? or are you just upset because 'outsiders' MIGHT be using multi-model paths that are paid for/maintained by villager's amenity fees - especially when you have no idea how many 'outsiders' use them now or MIGHT use themin the future? i just don't get your concern?

i really am sincerely interested in your answers. pm them to me if you do not wish to post here. thanx

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

"Proposed" Solution to The Wall (http://www.thevillagesfloridabook.com/proposed-solution-to-the-wall/)

Thanks for that, but I would hardly consider it objective journalism when it's starts out by calling today's Daily Sun article a "puff piece disguised as an article".

I don;t who this guy is that publishes this page, but I'm sure that his objective is the same as the the developer's. To make money. He wants you to pay $19.95 so he can give you his opinion on the Villages, which he refers to as the "real story of the Villages".
Maybe he has some very good information and insights for people who are interested incoming here, but as soon as I see that kind of language several red flags go up. I have to assume that he has some kind of agenda.

[Peachie]

no, peachie, you twisted the point! it's not mine! what does it matter if a few non-villagers use the multi-model paths?

and you failed to respond to my questions. so i will repost them here:
why do you continue to raise only a slim possibility of such when no one else does? or are you just upset because 'outsiders' MIGHT be using multi-model paths that are paid for/maintained by villager's amenity fees - especially when you have no idea how many 'outsiders' use them now or MIGHT use themin the future? i just don't get your concern?

i really am sincerely interested in your answers. pm them to me if you do not wish to post here. thanx


All those questions have been answered at different times by me, bchbum, go under community and Peachie and you will be able to read all my posts on this which will fully explain my positions.

What you haven't answered is why all the angst on your part after we have found out, happily, that the good residents of the historic area and others in The Villages will be able to go to their desired locations through the gated opening? It's time to uncork one and celebrate.

[njbchbum]

All those questions have been answered at different times by me, bchbum, go under community and Peachie and you will be able to read all my posts on this which will fully explain my positions.

What you haven't answered is why all the angst on your part after we have found out, happily, that the good residents of the historic area and others in The Villages will be able to go to their desired locations through the gated opening? It's time to uncork one and celebrate.

we will all 'uncork one and celebrate' IF/WHEN the wall is open and a gate is installed!

i have read your posts and understand your positions...i am just trying to understand why you have them; and it does not appear that i will ever learn that. ciao.

[graciegirl]

we will all 'uncork one and celebrate' IF/WHEN the wall is open and a gate is installed!

i have read your posts and understand your positions...i am just trying to understand why you have them; and it does not appear that i will ever learn that. ciao.

Peachie has come back on to post again after quite a long absence from this forum and she had a very good reason for leaving. I know her as a smart, ethical woman with very good common sense, a kind heart and someone with the same philosophy of life as yours, Njbchbum in many ways.

I think if you were to meet in person you would not find yourselves at odds.

I think when this issue settles down and hopefully resolves itself and the adrenaline level drops, everything will be more easily discussed.

I hope so.



Bring on the new gate. Let life begin anew.

[Peachie]

we will all 'uncork one and celebrate' IF/WHEN the wall is open and a gate is installed!

i have read your posts and understand your positions...i am just trying to understand why you have them; and it does not appear that i will ever learn that. ciao.

Sent you a PM :)

[Peachie]

Peachie has come back on to post again after quite a long absence from this forum and she had a very good reason for leaving. I know her as a smart, ethical woman with very good common sense, a kind heart and someone with the same philosophy of life as yours, Njbchbum in many ways.

I think if you were to meet in person you would not find yourselves at odds.

I think when this issue settles down and hopefully resolves itself and the adrenaline level drops, everything will be more easily discussed.

I hope so.



Bring on the new gate. Let life begin anew.



Very kind words, Gracie, but you know I have warts too. I had just sent njbchbum a PM and came back and found your post. Thank you and now back to the subject at hand.

[SpicyCajunPugs]

peachie has come back on to post again after quite a long absence from this forum and she had a very good reason for leaving. I know her as a smart, ethical woman with very good common sense, a kind heart and someone with the same philosophy of life as yours, njbchbum in many ways.

I think if you were to meet in person you would not find yourselves at odds.

I think when this issue settles down and hopefully resolves itself and the adrenaline level drops, everything will be more easily discussed.

I hope so.


Bring on the new gate. Let life begin anew.

amen to that !!!!!!!!!!

[njbchbum]

Peachie has come back on to post again after quite a long absence from this forum and she had a very good reason for leaving. I know her as a smart, ethical woman with very good common sense, a kind heart and someone with the same philosophy of life as yours, Njbchbum in many ways.

I think if you were to meet in person you would not find yourselves at odds.

I think when this issue settles down and hopefully resolves itself and the adrenaline level drops, everything will be more easily discussed.

I hope so.

Bring on the new gate. Let life begin anew.

gracie - just got a pm from her and i could not agree with you more! lets us 3 do lunch when i return - maybe at the o.b. country club even! :)

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I certainly think that the building of the new ALC is the reason for the wall, Penn, I just can't get my head round why it was built "during the night".

As you say, though, it would all be moot if a card-controlled gate is introduced.

I suppose that could be a reason, but the ALC has been under construction for almost a year now. Why would the gate not have been closed when the plans for construction were approved?

There are several possible reasons that the wall went up. They may have found some non residents playing on a golf course or using a pool after hours, new lawyers may have felt that there is some kind of liability issue, the insurance company may have raise the rates because they just discovered what has been going on, residents may have been complaining about the traffic or there may have been an accident or close call of some sort.

These are all speculation just as the ALC being the reason is speculation. The supposed feud between Morse and Brown is also speculation. No one knows exactly what happened and all of this speculation doesn't help. I've met several people over the past few days that have told me that they absolutely know the reason. The problem is that they all had different reasons.

When people post all of these speculative reasons, they tend to grow and people repeat them like they are the absolute truth. I don't think that that does anyone any good.

"Maybe it's because", becomes, "I heard that it's because', which then becomes, "I know it's because". Then people for some reason what to defend their position.

Some people don't like the Morses because of some things they've done and other people simply don't like successful people. They really want this to be about greed and Morse acting like Ebenezer Scrooge so they can say, "See I told you so. All rich people are evil and out to get us".

I think that we all need to take a deep breath and ask ourselves what do we really know as fact and stop all the speculation.

What we do know now is that a plan has been proposed and if approved, which most people seem to think it will be, it will be good for the residents of the Villages and we will be back to our lovely lifestyle once again.

We can go on saying that we don't believe it, or it's all a set up, but what good does that really do anyone. I say wait and see and in the next few weeks if we don't hear of anything good happening start getting on the VHAs back about it. They took the initiative to meet with the developer and try to work something out. The ball is now in their court. But we have to give them a chance to see if they can produce what they are promising.

[Steve9930]

I suppose that could be a reason, but the ALC has been under construction for almost a year now. Why would the gate not have been closed when the plans for construction were approved?

There are several possible reasons that the wall went up. They may have found some non residents playing on a golf course or using a pool after hours, new lawyers may have felt that there is some kind of liability issue, the insurance company may have raise the rates because they just discovered what has been going on, residents may have been complaining about the traffic or there may have been an accident or close call of some sort.

These are all speculation just as the ALC being the reason is speculation. The supposed feud between Morse and Brown is also speculation. No one knows exactly what happened and all of this speculation doesn't help. I've met several people over the past few days that have told me that they absolutely know the reason. The problem is that they all had different reasons.

When people post all of these speculative reasons, they tend to grow and people repeat them like they are the absolute truth. I don't think that that does anyone any good.

"Maybe it's because", becomes, "I heard that it's because', which then becomes, "I know it's because". Then people for some reason what to defend their position.

Some people don't like the Morses because of some things they've done and other people simply don't like successful people. They really want this to be about greed and Morse acting like Ebenezer Scrooge so they can say, "See I told you so. All rich people are evil and out to get us".

I think that we all need to take a deep breath and ask ourselves what do we really know as fact and stop all the speculation.

What we do know now is that a plan has been proposed and if approved, which most people seem to think it will be, it will be good for the residents of the Villages and we will be back to our lovely lifestyle once again.

We can go on saying that we don't believe it, or it's all a set up, but what good does that really do anyone. I say wait and see and in the next few weeks if we don't hear of anything good happening start getting on the VHAs back about it. They took the initiative to meet with the developer and try to work something out. The ball is now in their court. But we have to give them a chance to see if they can produce what they are promising.

Well said.

[Warren Kiefer]

Artic Fox. I think one reason the gate was not important 10 years ago is because they had not built a rather sizable Assisted Living Home. Their (Assisted Living) building a cart path that would accomadate their clients and provide them with free unencumbered access to Blossom roads, cart path, and the Villages was a very clever move. Of course there are significant costs associated with opening up The Villages to the "outside" and the residents are ones who bear these costs. We even have controls over family and friends visitors.
Anyone can drive into The Villages and experience the life style but when it is suggested they become a pseudo residents without bearing any of the costs or worse have a better position than family and friends then it has gone too far. As I said, if it was the Developers intent to shut this all down and set up a controlled entrance through Village Gate cards then I for one cheer him.:ho:

What don't you understand about assisted living. These folk need assistance to do almost everything. So you can really imagine a bunch of assisted living people breeching the Villages boundaries and using our golf courses, pools, pickle ball etc. The last assisted care I visited (we have a therapy puppy), most people could not even eat without assistance. In my wildest imagination I cannot visualize "their clients" (your words) driving a golf cart and soaking up our amenities for free.

[Arctic Fox]

When people post all of these speculative reasons, they tend to grow and people repeat them like they are the absolute truth.

I am certainly guilty of taking what people post on TOTV as facts

Now, must put the cart on charge ready for my next trip to Aldi...

[xkeowner]

If the solution is as simple as the VHA proposal appears to be the question remains who was the decision authority who jumped to such a callous and onerous decision instead of participating in an open dialog? I have a strange feeling I may learn the truth about what happened at Benghazi before I learn the answer to that question.

I am hopeful the VHA proposal can be quickly approved/implemented as, even though we live near the Havana CC, we use the path 3-4 times per month.

[bkcunningham1]

What don't you understand about assisted living. These folk need assistance to do almost everything. So you can really imagine a bunch of assisted living people breeching the Villages boundaries and using our golf courses, pools, pickle ball etc. The last assisted care I visited (we have a therapy puppy), most people could not even eat without assistance. In my wildest imagination I cannot visualize "their clients" (your words) driving a golf cart and soaking up our amenities for free.

You must not know anyone who lives at Freedom Pointe assisted living. There are some wonderful, active people living there. Also, there are spouses who may be healthy who are living with the less healthy people. They also have visitors and or family who live nearby and that is why a decision is made to put them in a local assisted living facility. The new facility has advertised that they are golf cart accessible. But let's hope all of this is water under the bridge and we are able to resolve this and have the wall taken down and all of this becomes a distant memory.

[schwarz]

you are right...I help manage the dining room at a Village assisted living facility. These folks are NOT using the village facilities...some of their kids, age 55 plus, may live in the villages

[golf2140]

You must not know anyone who lives at Freedom Pointe assisted living. There are some wonderful, active people living there. Also, there are spouses who may be healthy who are living with the less healthy people. They also have visitors and or family who live nearby and that is why a decision is made to put them in a local assisted living facility. The new facility has advertised that they are golf cart accessible. But let's hope all of this is water under the bridge and we are able to resolve this and have the wall taken down and all of this becomes a distant memory.

BK,

Nice post. Must add they these folks pay an amenity fee each month.

[Evanleo]

I recently had to use the non-gate at Paradise to take my husband to the Vilage emergency room. That option is no longr available to us. Thank you ,whoever to the big brain who created this mess that denies us this convenience. You have created a huge group of unhappy villagers. What ever happened to the friendlyest home town?

[Steve9930]

I recently had to use the non-gate at Paradise to take my husband to the Vilage emergency room. That option is no longr available to us. Thank you ,whoever to the big brain who created this mess that denies us this convenience. You have created a huge group of unhappy villagers. What ever happened to the friendlyest home town?

Hope all turned out ok.

[Warren Kiefer]

I suppose that could be a reason, but the ALC has been under construction for almost a year now. Why would the gate not have been closed when the plans for construction were approved?

There are several possible reasons that the wall went up. They may have found some non residents playing on a golf course or using a pool after hours, new lawyers may have felt that there is some kind of liability issue, the insurance company may have raise the rates because they just discovered what has been going on, residents may have been complaining about the traffic or there may have been an accident or close call of some sort.

These are all speculation just as the ALC being the reason is speculation. The supposed feud between Morse and Brown is also speculation. No one knows exactly what happened and all of this speculation doesn't help. I've met several people over the past few days that have told me that they absolutely know the reason. The problem is that they all had different reasons.

When people post all of these speculative reasons, they tend to grow and people repeat them like they are the absolute truth. I don't think that that does anyone any good.

"Maybe it's because", becomes, "I heard that it's because', which then becomes, "I know it's because". Then people for some reason what to defend their position.

Some people don't like the Morses because of some things they've done and other people simply don't like successful people. They really want this to be about greed and Morse acting like Ebenezer Scrooge so they can say, "See I told you so. All rich people are evil and out to get us".

I think that we all need to take a deep breath and ask ourselves what do we really know as fact and stop all the speculation.

What we do know now is that a plan has been proposed and if approved, which most people seem to think it will be, it will be good for the residents of the Villages and we will be back to our lovely lifestyle once again.

We can go on saying that we don't believe it, or it's all a set up, but what good does that really do anyone. I say wait and see and in the next few weeks if we don't hear of anything good happening start getting on the VHAs back about it. They took the initiative to meet with the developer and try to work something out. The ball is now in their court. But we have to give them a chance to see if they can produce what they are promising.

Are you kidding ??? Do you really believe the VHA initiated a meeting with the developer seeking a solution.The truth is more likely to be that the Developer insructed the VHA president what to say. I do agree that speculation gets us nowhere. The more important issue to me is why the Developer has remained mute regarding the wall issue. Want to end the speculation ?, Easy, one of the Morse's should have immediately doused the flames by providing the who directed the wall to be erected, when it was decided and finally why was it erected.... The VHA president and his "solution" is only playing the part of the dummy for a ventriloquist.

[scres]

Should read:
The bottom line is Stonecrest is NOT very happy that Spruce Creek will xxx be able to get to Wal-Mart and the other shops on the East Side of 441/27 legally.

Stonecrest people are concerned about the Spruce Creek cart traffic on the frontage roads that are very dangerous due to 441/27 drivers avoiding the light at Sonic/CVS into Walmart by driving thru the Stonecrest frontage roads. Spruce Creek could have asked for permission to cross at the Sonic/CVS light crossing as they have access to it thru their back gate. A legal cart crossing there would have been available for use by Spuce Creek, Stonecrest and the Villages and would have been great for those stores and a safer drive for Spruce Creek Carts.

Stonecrest has automatic cart gates north and south of Walmart and do not usually drive carts on the frontage roads.

.

"Stonecrest people are concerned" Can you be more specific. This is erroneous. What Stonecrest people are concerned? Who and/or what is the source of your information? I know many Stonecrest residents and they are not concerned about the 441 crossing. Do you represent Stonecrest?

[orgunvs]

Thank you to who ever has continued to contact channel 9. There is a urgency to remove the wall for the citizens that live in the history area. Picture this, a lot of them moved there 20 years old when they retired. They cannot afford car insurance or taxi cab rides. I talked with many of the citizens over in the historic side and they are afraid of what will happen. The wall was still standing today. I hope that it will be down by the end of the week so they may go to their banks and Dr's. Please go to the township meeting on Monday at 6:pm. Please pick up your neighbors that cannot drive. There are many of them that will need our help.

[co519]

Oot, if you have ever rented or stayed at a motel in The Villages, you are residing in The Villages and on Villages property. That statement doesn't compare to providing a service to Stonecrest, (gate access) on a 24/7 basis for which we pay a premium.

Residents of Stonecrest, as I said earlier, I'm sure are very nice, good people, I think EdV is a good example of that. I think I'm also a very nice, neat, careful person but would you open the back door of your house and tell me or anyone in the vicinity to come in and use the TV or the kitchen or whatever anytime? We wouldn't cause any wear and tear...

The residents in Stonecrest bought there and not in The Villages for all of their own reasons and I respect that. It's a nice community.
They did not opt to live and pay amenity fees in The Villages. I guess I don't understand the philosophy that Villagers need to open their back door and provide for Stonecrest and Spruce Creek, or any other development in that area, so they may use golf cart access. Once it is established there shall be public access to that area by any golf carts, you can't go back. Is it fair to the residents in OB to lay additional cart traffic next to and past their homes?

Many people from TV seem to have a problem with Stonecrest accessing the villages by golf cart. So you would rather have them and anybody else in a car drive around your neighborhood? I am sure you realize that anybody that knows how to push a button can get in and drive a car anywhere they want and access all those areas you claim to be so sacred. I seem to be missing the problem of having golf carts as apposed to any car from any place in any state just driving around, Just my little thought!!!

[Steve9930]

Many people from TV seem to have a problem with Stonecrest accessing the villages by golf cart. So you would rather have them and anybody else in a car drive around your neighborhood? I am sure you realize that anybody that knows how to push a button can get in and drive a car anywhere they want and access all those areas you claim to be so sacred. I seem to be missing the problem of having golf carts as apposed to any car from any place in any state just driving around, Just my little thought!!!

Does everyone realize you can rent a Golf Cart at SS and go where ever you care to go? I own an electric cart so I don't go far. The ones for rent are gas and can travel a long long way. Now anyone can rent these carts. I'd be more worried about this then having a StoneCrest or Spruce Creek resident coming over to the Villages via the golf cart.

[PennBF]

I guess if I were the individual responsible for the closing of the cart path I would stay awake at night hoping no one was injured as a result of the action. Hoping that lack of access to the emergency rooms, etc. did not lead to someone being harmed. This stuff is what real problems grow out of and afterwards there are always regrets. :ohdear:

[chuckinca]

"Stonecrest people are concerned" Can you be more specific. This is erroneous. What Stonecrest people are concerned? Who and/or what is the source of your information? I know many Stonecrest residents and they are not concerned about the 441 crossing. Do you represent Stonecrest?


Many of the Stonecrest residents we associate with in about 20 clubs and activities each month. I don't but my wife is on the boards of about 4 clubs/activities.

Do you represent Stonecrest? Where do you get your info that Stonecrest is not concerned about the 441 crossing? Be specific.

.

[mulligan]

This has gotten way off topic.

[ttown]

Agreed. We need to continue to monitor the wall, and discuss what actions will be needed if nothing is done.

[NoMoSno]

I wonder why a pedestrian/bike/mobility scooter access was not left in the wall.
Since there are no sidewalks on 441, it would have let those that were able, to at least get to jobs and medical facilities, until a resolution is found.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Are you kidding ??? Do you really believe the VHA initiated a meeting with the developer seeking a solution.The truth is more likely to be that the Developer insructed the VHA president what to say. I do agree that speculation gets us nowhere.

Does anyone else find this hysterical?

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I agree with you EdV. There may be people on the other side who have grown to use businesses on our side of the wall as well. They may use doctors in our community. It is a shame this whole situation ever happened in the first place.

People from communities like Stonecrest should not be able to use our pools and such...and I don't they go out of their way to do so. They have their own pool (which is really nice!) They do however, spend money at the stores, which helps keep those stores in our community.

Even if they were to drive a cart on one of the paths instead of the public streets - is it really that big of a deal. Life is short - can't we all just get along??

The difference is that Villages residents don't have to cut across Stonecrest property in order to access the medical center, assisted living facility, or any of the other businesses we are talking about here.

In order to get to Publix or Target, Stonecrest residents have to cut across a small piece of property that is owned by the Villages.
I have no problem with Stonecrest residents being able to do that, but the owner of that piece of property might.

Both the Villages residents and Stonecrest residents do have to cut across the properties of those businesses who are very willing and happy to have us do that. I don't know who owns the dirt path but I am assuming that it is the ALC as the cement water retention area was built at the same time as the ALC building. But, it could be that Mr Brown still owns it and he would have every right not to allow anyone to cross there. Like with all private property, it is the choice of whoever owns it to welcome golf cart traffic or not.

[EdV]

In order to get to Publix or Target, Stonecrest residents have to cut across a small piece of property that is owned by the Villages.
....

That path is the only way to get to/from the state DOT approved bridge that crosses 441, a state highway. The state would have never approved the bridge unless that path was also made public.

Can we stop quibbling over patches of cart paths now?

[ttown]

I am not worried about hordes of marauding old people from Stonecrest or Spruce Creek. I am worried about a unilateral decision that effected many many people , with no explanation . Nor the courtesy to tell us the reasoning behind it.

[PennBF]

OK, here you have a Developer who puts together a terrific community at their risk and work and then builds Assisted Living for the members/residents of the community. Another person(s) see a profit in using the Developers risks and builds an assisted living facility and advertises it can use the advantages built and risked by the original Village Developer. Does anyone think that is fair. Remember the owner of the "Off Site" assisted living is in it for a profit it is not a charitable endeavor. So they would be riding off the back of the Developer. Then everyone gets upset when the Developer draws a line in the sand and wants some controls over the usage of his work. Of course if the Developer does not put a "Badge Controlled Gate" up for the Village residents then all bets off.!!! In addition the "Off Site Assisted Living" is in competition with the Developer and they are using his work to set up their business. Remember, it is a business. Have you priced the cost of entering one of these Assisted Livings. You will quickly learn that it is a business and not a "Religion".
(As aside: I see some use the terms "Drinking the Cool Aid" I am not sure if they know that is a direct reference to the many people who died at Johnstown and terribly disrespectable to those who had relatives or friends there and were poisoned. Although I don't personally know of anyone I still think it is appropriate to respect those that were poisoned and their relatives, etc.):ho:

[TVMayor]

Read what district administrator Janet Tutt has to say on this topic:

Janet Tutt blames social media for 'Berlin Wall' controversy - ************** (http://www.**************.com/berlin-wall-irks-golf-cart-drivers-on-historic-side/)

Social media is the problem not the wall. It was done for security reasons. Lock the back door and make the bad guys come in the front. Thank you Janet Tutt for your honest explanation.

District administrator Janet Tutt this morning blamed social media for the controversy which has erupted around the “Berlin Wall” erected over the weekend on The Villages’ Historic Side.

She said social media has spread misinformation about why the wall was erected.

She said the wall was erected due to “a situation with liability on property and security.” SNIP

[Peachie]

Read what district administrator Janet Tutt has to say on this topic:

Janet Tutt blames social media for 'Berlin Wall' controversy - ************** (http://www.**************.com/berlin-wall-irks-golf-cart-drivers-on-historic-side/)

The comment section does make me think that perhaps all of the people exhorting the fact that Mr. Schwartz would never run things the way his son and heirs are currently, should consider the fact the HE brought his son Gary Morse into his development project because he was having problems making the whole thing fly. Mr. Schwartz was very happy, I'm sure, to enjoy the business acumen his brilliant son, Gary Morse, possessed. Mr. Schwartz could afford to be affable and social, the successful business yoke was on his son's neck. (BTW, I understand Gary Morse is also extremely affable but I've never met him.)

[Bogie Shooter]

Does anyone else find this hysterical?

Ignorance takes many forms.

[PennBF]

Does anyone actually believe the Developer looked to Ms. Tutt and the VHA for a solution to the wall. Trying to foist this on the residents is actually an insult. Having said this "The Developer" has brought out a good solution and if it happens then he deserves full credit for a solution that would help the residents while at the same time protecting his competitive position.:shocked:

[Peachie]

That path is the only way to get to/from the state DOT approved bridge that crosses 441, a state highway. The state would have never approved the bridge unless that path was also made public.

Can we stop quibbling over patches of cart paths now?

EdV, did the state grant an easement over the highway for the bridge or did the state build the bridge for the public? I don't know where to find that information.

I don't think it's fair to state that we're quibbling over patches of cart paths. The Villages is designed with patches of cart paths all over and that doesn't make them any less private.

[justjim]

Wow! Wow! So according to Janet Tutt, Social Media caused this problem. How about just a "little bit" of transparency before you affect the lives of the elderly of "your" kingdom?

[CFrance]

Wow! Wow! So according to Janet Tutt, Social Media caused this problem. How about just a "little bit" of transparency before you affect the lives of the elderly of "your" kingdom?

I so agree!!! How can she blame social media when social media requested an explanation repeatedly and got nothing but silence?

There is nothing wrong with speculation on a social forum. If she didn't like it, she should have come clean with the reason.

Her statement is appalling and insulting.

[graciegirl]

Whoa....appalling and insulting. She has a job to do and probably wants to keep it. I know I want her to keep it.

CFrance. You know that I always agree with you, but it was a matter of three or four days until something happened as an attempt to resolve this dumb thing that they did.

We are all old enough to know that when a problem surfaces in any organization; business, church, charity,social club that meetings transpire and things are debated (argued).

Solutions are sometimes fair and transparent but most times cloudy and face saving. We can see that even in the way this country is run.

We need to keep calm and carry on. See if this doesn't work out and if it doesn't then we can go right back to the sturm und drang.

That is what I think. What do I know. I love you to pieces CFrance. You are probably right again.

[Steve9930]

I so agree!!! How can she blame social media when social media requested an explanation repeatedly and got nothing but silence?

There is nothing wrong with speculation on a social forum. If she didn't like it, she should have come clean with the reason.

Her statement is appalling and insulting.

That's called doing a little side step. Its in the new play book for dealing with the rabble rousing public.

[Bucco]

The comment section does make me think that perhaps all of the people exhorting the fact that Mr. Schwartz would never run things the way his son and heirs are currently, should consider the fact the HE brought his son Gary Morse into his development project because he was having problems making the whole thing fly. Mr. Schwartz was very happy, I'm sure, to enjoy the business acumen his brilliant son, Gary Morse, possessed. Mr. Schwartz could afford to be affable and social, the successful business yoke was on his son's neck. (BTW, I understand Gary Morse is also extremely affable but I've never met him.)

As this board becomes overwhelmed with anti Village, anti Morse family, anti developer folks, keep in mind that when Harold started this place, and when he died, it was a pittance compared to the present time.

This is not an easy place to "run"...it is extremely complicated an while some may think they have all the answers, I wonder because they do not even have all the facts to come to an answer.

Expressing concern, questioning why is all fine but the sarcastic comments about this man, his family, the paper is not only uncalled for, but step back....it is lacking in any credence.

Express your questions, but being sarcastic about the "kingdom" as someone termed it is just not productive to anything.

I have been here for a bit, and questioned a number of things, but sometimes as I pursued my question, I found out that maybe, just maybe, the developer or the folks in charge had mucho more information than I to make their decision and to my knowledge make decisions in the best interest of The Villages...perhaps not what I want and perhaps not always what he or the family wants, but based on law, facts, etc....never knew them to hurt or do anything that would hurt the residents just to hurt them.

[Bogie Shooter]

As this board becomes overwhelmed with anti Village, anti Morse family, anti developer folks, keep in mind that when Harold started this place, and when he died, it was a pittance compared to the present time.

This is not an easy place to "run"...it is extremely complicated an while some may think they have all the answers, I wonder because they do not even have all the facts to come to an answer.

Expressing concern, questioning why is all fine but the sarcastic comments about this man, his family, the paper is not only uncalled for, but step back....it is lacking in any credence.

Express your questions, but being sarcastic about the "kingdom" as someone termed it is just not productive to anything.

I have been here for a bit, and questioned a number of things, but sometimes as I pursued my question, I found out that maybe, just maybe, the developer or the folks in charge had mucho more information than I to make their decision and to my knowledge make decisions in the best interest of The Villages...perhaps not what I want and perhaps not always what he or the family wants, but based on law, facts, etc....never knew them to hurt or do anything that would hurt the residents just to hurt them.

Good common sense post. Thank you.

[Steve9930]

As this board becomes overwhelmed with anti Village, anti Morse family, anti developer folks, keep in mind that when Harold started this place, and when he died, it was a pittance compared to the present time.

This is not an easy place to "run"...it is extremely complicated an while some may think they have all the answers, I wonder because they do not even have all the facts to come to an answer.

Expressing concern, questioning why is all fine but the sarcastic comments about this man, his family, the paper is not only uncalled for, but step back....it is lacking in any credence.

Express your questions, but being sarcastic about the "kingdom" as someone termed it is just not productive to anything.

I have been here for a bit, and questioned a number of things, but sometimes as I pursued my question, I found out that maybe, just maybe, the developer or the folks in charge had mucho more information than I to make their decision and to my knowledge make decisions in the best interest of The Villages...perhaps not what I want and perhaps not always what he or the family wants, but based on law, facts, etc....never knew them to hurt or do anything that would hurt the residents just to hurt them.

In many ways I agree with you but this action was done as if they lived in a vacuum. It had to be known that people would be inconvenienced and in some cases devastated by the unannounced and quick implementation. They deserve an explanation. When you fail to communicate an action as this human frustration can take on a very ugly face. It all about communication and I would have thought that the people in charge were more intelligent then what happened here. I don't condone some of the comments but I understand where they come.

[CFrance]

Whoa....appalling and insulting. She has a job to do and probably wants to keep it. I know I want her to keep it.

CFrance. You know that I always agree with you, but it was a matter of three or four days until something happened as an attempt to resolve this dumb thing that they did.

We are all old enough to know that when a problem surfaces in any organization; business, church, charity,social club that meetings transpire and things are debated (argued).

Solutions are sometimes fair and transparent but most times cloudy and face saving. We can see that even in the way this country is run.

We need to keep calm and carry on. See if this doesn't work out and if it doesn't then we can go right back to the sturm und drang.

That is what I think. What do I know. I love you to pieces CFrance. You are probably right again.

Okay, Gracie. I hear ya. But still... a little bit of transparency and better PR work would have gone a long way. And then to have someone turn around and blame "social media" (I'm assuming she's referring to TOTV) is maddening. Like it's our fault for speculating after they refused to answer any questions from the many who called to ask why.

They need to beef up their PR department!

[EdV]

EdV, did the state grant an easement over the highway for the bridge or did the state build the bridge for the public? I don't know where to find that information.

I don't think it's fair to state that we're quibbling over patches of cart paths. The Villages is designed with patches of cart paths all over and that doesn't make them any less private.

I thought it would suffice to simply point out that one need not travel on amenity maintained paths to get from Stonecrest to Spanish Springs etc. by cart. But apparently not. So:

Per TV’s districtgov website: “A Community Development District is a public non-profit unit of local government with the special purpose of providing the services described above. As a unit of local government, the District is subject to many of the same State Statutes that regulate cities and counties.”

So the roads in a CDD are public, not private. Furthermore, both the roads and the multi-modal paths were built using tax free municipal funds, not private developer funds. And those paths were built specifically to provide cart access where travel in the roads would not be safe. And since those paths are the only way for a cart to get through that area, they too must be available to the public. And the fact that they are maintained by amenity funds does not preclude this.

The by-laws of Stonecrest require us to allow public vehicle access to the Links of Stonecrest golf course even though the golf course is privately owned and the roads are maintained by our association funds.

[bimmertl]

POA issues statement on 'Berlin Wall' standoff - ************** (http://www.**************.com/poa-issues-statement-on-berlin-wall-standoff/)

[graciegirl]

Okay, Gracie. I hear ya. But still... a little bit of transparency and better PR work would have gone a long way. And then to have someone turn around and blame "social media" (I'm assuming she's referring to TOTV) is maddening. Like it's our fault for speculating after they refused to answer any questions from the many who called to ask why.

They need to beef up their PR department!

One thing I know for sure is...

They ain't gonna.

Sure beats the heck outa me how they do things. But overall it's been working.

I wouldn't be Janet Tutt for all the tea in China.

Is that politically correct?

[deltaguy]

Whoa....appalling and insulting. She has a job to do and probably wants to keep it. I know I want her to keep it.

CFrance. You know that I always agree with you, but it was a matter of three or four days until something happened as an attempt to resolve this dumb thing that they did.

We are all old enough to know that when a problem surfaces in any organization; business, church, charity,social club that meetings transpire and things are debated (argued).

Solutions are sometimes fair and transparent but most times cloudy and face saving. We can see that even in the way this country is run.

We need to keep calm and carry on. See if this doesn't work out and if it doesn't then we can go right back to the sturm und drang.

That is what I think. What do I know. I love you to pieces CFrance. You are probably right again.

Although actually accurate, the term "strum und drang" represents a level of intellectual capacity that is not likely understood by 99+% of readers of this Thread.

[DAVIDPHS55]

If and when the villages tears down the wall and installs a gate that can only be opened by residents will the new assisted living complex block access to their golf cart path. Think about it.

[ajbrown]

In the end it matters little what I think :blahblahblah:, but I would have liked to see Janet Tutt’s statement start a bit more like the following:

“We” (unclear who we is) made a mistake. We were faced with a situation where we had to close this wall for “a situation with liability on the property and security”. As a team (whoever that is) we did not properly understand the impact of that decision to our residents. In hindsight we could have managed this much more effectively. The situation then took on a life of its own because of social media……

The only other explanation (which I prefer to not accept) is that "they" did think about this and did not care and are now back pedaling.

Having spent many years in network security for large information technology organizations I have made this mistake.

[kittygilchrist]

sturm, not strum. jeepers am I in the <99th percentile??

[Peachie]

I thought it would suffice to simply point out that one need not travel on amenity maintained paths to get from Stonecrest to Spanish Springs etc. by cart. But apparently not. So:

Per TV’s districtgov website: “A Community Development District is a public non-profit unit of local government with the special purpose of providing the services described above. As a unit of local government, the District is subject to many of the same State Statutes that regulate cities and counties.”

So the roads in a CDD are public, not private. Furthermore, both the roads and the multi-modal paths were built using tax free municipal funds, not private developer funds. And those paths were built specifically to provide cart access where travel in the roads would not be safe. And since those paths are the only way for a cart to get through that area, they too must be available to the public. And the fact that they are maintained by amenity funds does not preclude this.

The by-laws of Stonecrest require us to allow public vehicle access to the Links of Stonecrest golf course even though the golf course is privately owned and the roads are maintained by our association funds.


So in essence, you're stating their are no private golf cart paths in the villages? Anyone can go anywhere, anytime on these paths? I'm learning many new things.

How about the bridge over 27/441, built and owned by the state is it?

[Peachie]

[QUOTE=deltaguy;726559]Although actually accurate, the term "strum und drang" represents a level of intellectual capacity that is not likely understood by 99+% of readers of this Thread.[/QUOTE


They could google it, lol.

[Peachie]

In the end it matters little what I think :blahblahblah:, but I would have liked to see Janet Tutt’s statement start a bit more like the following:

“We” (unclear who we is) made a mistake. We were faced with a situation where we had to close this wall for “a situation with liability on the property and security”. As a team (whoever that is) we did not properly understand the impact of that decision to our residents. In hindsight we could have managed this much more effectively. The situation then took on a life of its own because of social media……

The only other explanation (which I prefer to not accept) is that "they" did think about this and did not care and are now back pedaling.

Having spent many years in network security for large information technology organizations I have made this mistake.


Great statement, AJ, too bad you weren't in the office when they were preparing theirs.

[EdV]

So in essence, you're stating their are no private golf cart paths in the villages? Anyone can go anywhere, anytime on these paths? I'm learning many new things.

How about the bridge over 27/441, built and owned by the state is it?

I never said all cart paths. But before I respond to that, do you understand the difference between cart paths in TV and multi-modal paths in TV. There’s an important difference.

As for the bridge, it doesn’t matter who built it. It was built to provide a way to allow golf carts to get from the public roads on one side of 441 to the public roads on the other. You cannot allow some people to use it but not others.

[Peachie]

I never said all cart paths. But before I respond to that, do you understand the difference between cart paths in TV and multi-modal paths in TV. There’s an important difference.

As for the bridge, it doesn’t matter who built it. It was built to provide a way to allow golf carts to get from the public roads on one side of 441 to the public roads on the other. You cannot allow some people to use it but not others.

I'm learning a lot from this discussion, EdV. If the builder of the bridge was Morse and he built it with an easement from the state to reach his private development on the other side of 27/441 that would probably make it a private bridge. But I'm unable to find out or determine by fact at this point if it is indeed public or private. I'm still researching.

The private paths, (or so I thought), that I was addressing were the paths between the public roadway and the access to the private Village property adjacent to the park, parking lot and the dog run area by the bridge. Am I to understand that's all public property?

Thanks for your patience in enlightening me.

[mulligan]

Y'all still seem to be missing the key point in the proposed solution. The undeveloped house lot inside the wall will be deeded to the vcdd (NOT THE VCCDD) rendering it private property. I don't believe there's any obligation on the part of the vcdd to allow cart traffic to cross private property.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Wow! Wow! So according to Janet Tutt, Social Media caused this problem. How about just a "little bit" of transparency before you affect the lives of the elderly of "your" kingdom?

I think that everyone has to read Janet Tutt's statement a bit more carefully. She never said that social media caused the problem. She didn't blame social media for the problems that have been cause by the wall. She said social media has spread misinformation about why the wall was erected.
And I think that she is 100% correct. It's exactly what I've said about speculation in several posts on this site.

She gave the reason that the wall was built.

In another article she stated that they made a mistake and didn't realize how much that it would affect the lives of the residents.

For some people this will never end. People asked for an answer to why the wall was built. An answer was given. Many of those people are saying, that they don't believe that answer. People also wanted the wall taken down and the path reopened. That is apparently going to happen and yet many people want to continue to create controversy over who came up with the plan to open the path.

Some people have a pre conceived notion that the developer is simply a bad guy that hates all of us and cares only about money. I think that too many people have seen the movie characters Ebenezer Scrooge and Gordon Gecko and believe that those people really exist.

As far as I am concerned, the answer to why the wall was put up has been answered. An apology has been issued for the way that it was done and a solution has been arrived at that will open the wall and allow Villages residents to have the access to the businesses that we've always had.

I don't really care about any of the rest of it. I don't really care who came up with solution. I thank Janet Tutt for taking responsibility and apologizing. All that you can do when you make a mistake is explain it, apologize for it and rectify it. I see that that is what has been done in this situation.

[graciegirl]

I am going to really try hard not to read any more of this subject until the new gate is installed. I have gone too close too hurting feelings of people I respect.

I hope it's soon and peace and calm once again returns to our wonderful town.

Ciao

[rp001]

I'm sure Ms Tutt's comment was taken out of context...That being said, for her to emphatically state " I run this district", is just plain arrogance..She needs to go....NOW!!! There should be no place in administration for that type of attitude and arrogance and total disregard for the folks affected by her stupid decision, period.

[Peachie]

I think that everyone has to read Janet Tutt's statement a bit more carefully. She never said that social media caused the problem. She didn't blame social media for the problems that have been cause by the wall.
And I think that she is 100% correct. It's exactly what I've said about speculation in several posts on this site.

She gave the reason that the wall was built.

In another article she stated that they made a mistake and didn't realize how much that it would affect the lives of the residents.

For some people this will never end. People asked for an answer to why the wall was built. An answer was given. Many of those people are saying, that they don't believe that answer. People also wanted the wall taken down and the path reopened. That is apparently going to happen and yet many people want to continue to create controversy over who came up with the plan to open the path.

Some people have a pre conceived notion that the developer is simply a bad guy that hates all of us and cares only about money. I think that too many people have seen the movie characters Ebenezer Scrooge and Gordon Gecko and believe that those people really exist.

As far as I am concerned, the answer to why the wall was put up has been answered. An apology has been issued for the way that it was done and a solution has been arrived at that will open the wall and allow Villages residents to have the access to the businesses that we've always had.

I don't really care about any of the rest of it. I don't really care who came up with solution. I thank Janet Tutt for taking responsibility and apologizing. All that you can do when you make a mistake is explain it, apologize for it and rectify it. I see that that is what has been done in this situation.

Wish I would have said this, Winston, I like your analysis.

[redwitch]

Well, it seems like the least Morse could do is give us some sort of access from Orange Blossom to the doctors and urgent care until the wall is down and the gate installed. Until that happens, I'm not going to hold my breath believing that the wall will ever be removed. Words are easy, actions are what make the difference.

[Barefoot]

As this board becomes overwhelmed with anti Village, anti Morse family, anti developer folks, keep in mind that when Harold started this place, and when he died, it was a pittance compared to the present time. This is not an easy place to "run"...it is extremely complicated an while some may think they have all the answers, I wonder because they do not even have all the facts to come to an answer.

Expressing concern, questioning why is all fine but the sarcastic comments about this man, his family, the paper is not only uncalled for, but step back....it is lacking in any credence. Express your questions, but being sarcastic about the "kingdom" as someone termed it is just not productive to anything.

I have been here for a bit, and questioned a number of things, but sometimes as I pursued my question, I found out that maybe, just maybe, the developer or the folks in charge had mucho more information than I to make their decision and to my knowledge make decisions in the best interest of The Villages...perhaps not what I want and perhaps not always what he or the family wants, but based on law, facts, etc....never knew them to hurt or do anything that would hurt the residents just to hurt them.

Good common-sense post.

[Arctic Fox]

Although actually accurate, the term "strum und drang" represents a level of intellectual capacity that is not likely understood by 99+% of readers of this Thread.

and, since I had to look it up on Google, here's what it means:

Sturm und Drang, (German: “Storm and Stress”)

(German literary movement of the late 18th century that exalted nature, feeling, and human individualism and sought to overthrow the Enlightenment cult of Rationalism.)

well, there has been a storm over the wall, and I feel stressed, so I must agree that it is a good phrase to use

[cabo35]

Life was good in the Kingdom. The benevolent dictator King provided all that most of his subjects needed or desired. They were happy. Outside the Kingdom walls were small settlements that chose not to reside in the Kingdom thereby avoiding the King's modest taxation and rules. There was a moat around the original dominion of the king. It helped ensure the security of the Kingdom. The King build a road and a great bridge for his people so that they might enjoy the expanding, vast, rich, bountiful lands to the West.

All was well for a long time. The King allowed the surrounding neighbors to partake of the many benefits inside his dominion. Then he built a path so that his subjects could access and enjoy amenities outside his province. Access to the path was controlled by a gate and a key issued to each of his Kingdom tax paying subjects. Happiness prevailed until others outside the empire wanted to use the path as well. The gate was frequently broken and under repair allowing unfettered access to all. In capitulation, the King removed the gate. (This is historically correct according to original Kingdom settlers).

Recently when dragons in the form of liability, security and perceived abuses of the pathway came to bare......the King, unceremoniously, without warning, in the middle of the night decided to slay the dragons and build a wall to restrict all access to HIS path. Protests in and out of the Kingdom echoed through the streets and halls of governance. The dragons were slain but the collateral damage was unacceptable.

Acting quickly, the Kings minions announced they would build a new gate with keys for all Kingdom taxpaying villagers. This substantially quelled the voices of many inside the gates. Outside the gates, including an area known as Crests of Stone, pockets of acrimony continue. A noble orator and frequent critic of the King, originally from a great Commonwealth, now residing in the Crests of Stone, continues to rally for free and unfettered (uncompensated) access to the King's path. His protests continue to stir the caldron of discontent for those who dislike or resent the Kingdom's benevolent dictator.

The loyal opposition to the King would remind his detractors that while occasionally he may incur the ire of some of his subjects for perceived tyrannical actions, please remember.....he is OUR tyrant.

How will this fairy tale end? Let's hope that after the dragons are slain, the gate is opened and diplomacy is exercised, everyone will live happily in peace and harmony ever after.

[EdV]

Y'all still seem to be missing the key point in the proposed solution. The undeveloped house lot inside the wall will be deeded to the vcdd (NOT THE VCCDD) rendering it private property. I don't believe there's any obligation on the part of the vcdd to allow cart traffic to cross private property.

Mulligan, there's no CDD in TV named VCDD. That was a TYPO in the news article. The VCCDD which stands for Village Center Community Development District and is the governing body for the historic side of TV including Orange Blossom Hills where the cart path in question is located.

Hope this helps.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Mulligan, there's no CDD in TV named VCDD. That was a TYPO in the news article. The VCCDD which stands for Village Center Community Development District and is the governing body for the historic side of TV including Orange Blossom Hills where the cart path in question is located.

Hope this helps.

Sorry, but I am looking at my amenities bill as I type this and the heading says, VCCD Villages Community Development District.

[EdV]

I'm learning a lot from this discussion, EdV. If the builder of the bridge was Morse and he built it with an easement from the state to reach his private development on the other side of 27/441 that would probably make it a private bridge. But I'm unable to find out or determine by fact at this point if it is indeed public or private. I'm still researching.

The private paths, (or so I thought), that I was addressing were the paths between the public roadway and the access to the private Village property adjacent to the park, parking lot and the dog run area by the bridge. Am I to understand that's all public property?

Thanks for your patience in enlightening me.

Here ya go Peachie (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1992-07-12/news/9207110484_1_building-a-bridge-golf-carts-lady-lake).

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I'm sure Ms Tutt's comment was taken out of context...That being said, for her to emphatically state " I run this district", is just plain arrogance..She needs to go....NOW!!! There should be no place in administration for that type of attitude and arrogance and total disregard for the folks affected by her stupid decision, period.


Let's put that particular statement in context.

She took issue with the “rumor and misinformation” that the developer had approached she and Gottschalk with the plan for a gate.
“I run this district,” she said.

She was saying that there was an implication that she is a mere puppet of the developer, who really runs the district, and that it is not true.

[schwarz]

Freedom Point is ONLY independent living at this point...It is NOT a assisted living facility

[rubicon]

It is astonishing that this thread continues and is up to 899 posts now. When reviewing these posts I noticed that the same information, opinions, etc have been introduced and re-introduced. This leads me to conclude that posters mostly just want to continue to vent.
I hope the people in charge of The Villages build a wall all around it because its the right thing to do, the fair thnik to do and the safest think to do.

All installing a gate will do is cause people to knocked it down

[Steve9930]

Here ya go Peachie (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1992-07-12/news/9207110484_1_building-a-bridge-golf-carts-lady-lake).

Sounds like the bridge is a commercial venture just like the shops. Privately owned with public access.

[njbchbum]

OK, here you have a Developer who puts together a terrific community at their risk and work and then builds Assisted Living for the members/residents of the community. Another person(s) see a profit in using the Developers risks and builds an assisted living facility and advertises it can use the advantages built and risked by the original Village Developer. Does anyone think that is fair. Remember the owner of the "Off Site" assisted living is in it for a profit it is not a charitable endeavor. So they would be riding off the back of the Developer. Then everyone gets upset when the Developer draws a line in the sand and wants some controls over the usage of his work. Of course if the Developer does not put a "Badge Controlled Gate" up for the Village residents then all bets off.!!! In addition the "Off Site Assisted Living" is in competition with the Developer and they are using his work to set up their business. Remember, it is a business. Have you priced the cost of entering one of these Assisted Livings. You will quickly learn that it is a business and not a "Religion".
(As aside: I see some use the terms "Drinking the Cool Aid" I am not sure if they know that is a direct reference to the many people who died at Johnstown and terribly disrespectable to those who had relatives or friends there and were poisoned. Although I don't personally know of anyone I still think it is appropriate to respect those that were poisoned and their relatives, etc.):ho:

FAIR? there is little in life or about life that i can think of that is fair! but why go into a litany of that? the new assisted living complex has been known about and under construction for quite some time - not a new thing by any means. if, indeed, it was the golf cart access to that facility that put the burr under mr. morse's saddle, why did he just not explain that to villages residents and announce that he would be closing off that access point and give a short period of time for folks to adjust. instead with less than a day's posted and otherwise unannounced notice his people come at break of dawn and install the concrete curtain. i ask, where is the fairness in that?

[Steve9930]

It is astonishing that this thread continues and is up to 899 posts now. When reviewing these posts I noticed that the same information, opinions, etc have been introduced and re-introduced. This leads me to conclude that posters mostly just want to continue to vent.
I hope the people in charge of The Villages build a wall all around it because its the right thing to do, the fair thnik to do and the safest think to do.

All installing a gate will do is cause people to knocked it down

Works for me.

[Advogado]

For those of you not on the POA e-mail list, here is an e-mail that the POA sent out concerning this issue. The e-mail casts considerable doubt on the VHA/Daily Sun version of the facts:

POA
PROPERTY OWNERS' ASSOCIATION of The Villages
E-Alert

THE GREAT WALL OF PARADISE

Sometime between Friday evening August 9 and 6 a.m. Saturday morning August 10, 2013, the golf cart trail between Paradise Drive and The Villages Health System East Campus was closed off with two sections of concrete wall that matched the wall behind the properties on either side of the trail. This trail, which was maintained by the health system commercial property owners’ association, had been used for the last two decades by eastside residents as a way to access the medical facilities there. Over time, other businesses have sprung up just north of the medical facilities (Lowes, Beall’s, Aldi’s, Wal-Mart, Cracker Barrel, etc.) and many eastside residents have found it to be a godsend that they can satisfy many of their shopping needs via golf cart and not venture out on the always busy state road 27/441. Area residents we spoke to were beside themselves wondering how they could get to doctor appointments on the other side of the wall. While most residents have the alternative of using their car, clearly there are those who do not have a car, can no longer drive or are afraid to drive on busy roads. In some cases we were advised of couples where one uses the golf cart to get to a job at an eastside business while the spouse uses the car for other necessary trips. The recurring question we got from affected residents was Why?

The closure was done under cover of darkness, no prior notice of the closing had been given to residents and up until WednesdayAugust 14th, no one was taking responsibility for erecting the wall which is on Developer owned property. With no other recourse, eastside residents have been utilizing a section of amenity maintained property a short distance south of the closed trail, just north of the Boone gate, to access the south end of the medical campus via the parking lot of the Life Family Practice Center. Dr. Kraucak who owns the facility has been kind enough to allow golf cart traffic during this crisis. Some eastside residents were even “walled out” Saturday morning, having gone to their night shift jobs at eastside businesses before the wall was put up. Out of necessity, they had to drive their golf carts along the 27/441 grass right-of-way to get home.

On Wednesday August 14th, it was reported in the Daily Sun that the Developer indeed had put up the wall because of a concern for security and that the Developer would “donate to the district government the home site on Paradise Drive, which had previously been utilized as a golf cart path. As a condition of that donation, the district would build and maintain a gate that would allow access to Village residents only.” Not surprisingly, the Daily Sun headline stated “VHA president proposes solution to golf cart issue.” All of you who attended the “Take Down The Wall” rally Monday morning at Spanish Springs town square heard POA President Elaine Dreidame explain that the POA had engaged an attorney who had already begun working through legal channels to urge the Developer to find a solution to the problem the wall had created for residents. At this point, the VHA was still following the “party line” and denying the closing had anything to do with the Developer. Meanwhile, the POA President was also talking to AAC members and Lady Lake officials regarding alternative solutions if discussions with the Developer were not successful.

The important thing is that the wall will come down with the only change being that the amenity system will maintain the trail and gates rather than the medical system property owners’ association. If security was the only reason for concern, it seems like the solution was pretty obvious and would have saved all the time and expense it took for the Developer to cast the wall sections and have them installed and more importantly, avoided the tremendous amount of angst it created in hundreds of residents. And if security was the only concern, why was the wall put up in the middle of the night, on a weekend, with no notice to residents, and why the silence until Wednesday’s Daily Sun article ? We hope next time the Developer will provide advanced notice for changes that affect residents in such a major way, so that together they can come up with a solution before any heavy-handed action is taken. For now, it seems Eastside residents can relax without fear of losing their much advertised golf cart access to doctors and other businesses.
Property Owners' Association, P.O. Box 1657, Lady Lake, FL 32158-1657 Property Owners, Association of Florida (http://www.poa4us.org)

[Peachie]

Sounds like the bridge is a commercial venture just like the shops. Privately owned with public access.

First of all, thanks EdV for providing that info regarding the bridge and it appears to be installed and paid for by The Villages after they received a permit from a permit from the FL DOT.

QUOTE:
Morse said although the bond money will pay for the overpass, the cost really will be incurred by the Villages at Lady Lake.

''The bond taxes us, so we end up paying for the bridge,'' Morse said.
QUOTE


Steve, as I read this:

QUOTE:
'Most of our residents use golf carts as a major means of transportation,'' said Gary Morse, vice president of the Villages at Lady Lake, formerly Orange Blossom Gardens.

''This bridge will expand their horizons of where they can go.''

The overpass is needed because golf carts aren't permitted to cross state highways. The bridge should be ready for use by next summer, Morse said.
QUOTE

I fail to see the mention of anyone other than "our residents" by Gary Morse of The Villages meant to use this bridge. It was built to attract businesses to Spanish Springs because at the time there wasn't much in the area but the historic section and they couldn't cross 27/441 legally in their golf carts.

In the second paragraph of the Overview Section of this piece, note that they promote golf cart accessibility to The Villages.

Stonecrest Summerfield FL - Stone Crest Florida (http://www.55places.com/florida/communities/stonecrest)

Might this another reason why the gate is being installed?

And Rubicon, you're right... we're probably beating this to death and it will be decided by people other than us. I think I need a timeout.

[njbchbum]

Life was good in the Kingdom. The benevolent dictator King provided all that most of his subjects needed or desired. They were happy. Outside the Kingdom walls were small settlements that chose not to reside in the Kingdom thereby avoiding the King's modest taxation and rules. There was a moat around the original dominion of the king. It helped ensure the security of the Kingdom. The King build a road and a great bridge for his people so that they might enjoy the expanding, vast, rich, bountiful lands to the West.
snipped


thank you, cabo 3 for that marvelous piece! such fun!
:bigbow:

[Bogie Shooter]

If and when the villages tears down the wall and installs a gate that can only be opened by residents will the new assisted living complex block access to their golf cart path. Think about it.

Start another petition and set a date to meet on their front door......call the tv stations.

[Bogie Shooter]

I think that everyone has to read Janet Tutt's statement a bit more carefully. She never said that social media caused the problem. She didn't blame social media for the problems that have been cause by the wall.
And I think that she is 100% correct. It's exactly what I've said about speculation in several posts on this site.

She gave the reason that the wall was built.

In another article she stated that they made a mistake and didn't realize how much that it would affect the lives of the residents.

For some people this will never end. People asked for an answer to why the wall was built. An answer was given. Many of those people are saying, that they don't believe that answer. People also wanted the wall taken down and the path reopened. That is apparently going to happen and yet many people want to continue to create controversy over who came up with the plan to open the path.

Some people have a pre conceived notion that the developer is simply a bad guy that hates all of us and cares only about money. I think that too many people have seen the movie characters Ebenezer Scrooge and Gordon Gecko and believe that those people really exist.

As far as I am concerned, the answer to why the wall was put up has been answered. An apology has been issued for the way that it was done and a solution has been arrived at that will open the wall and allow Villages residents to have the access to the businesses that we've always had.

I don't really care about any of the rest of it. I don't really care who came up with solution. I thank Janet Tutt for taking responsibility and apologizing. All that you can do when you make a mistake is explain it, apologize for it and rectify it. I see that that is what has been done in this situation.

You have had many posts on this thread. I have agreed with some and disagreed with others (not that it makes any difference) BUT this post best sums up the thread and the issue........you did well.

[rp001]

Let's put that particular statement in context.



She was saying that there was an implication that she is a mere puppet of the developer, who really runs the district, and that it is not true.


There is no room in any kind of public statement where an official emphatically states, "I run this district". She has overstepped her authority and is displaying unfettered arrogance and disdain for legitimate resident's concerns. And she is DEFINITELY a puppet for the developer!

[OldManTime]

Driving on Paradise Drive in the Historic Side this afternoon, we noticed signs and gates at the entrance to the path that goes all the way to Lowe's and Walmart along st. Rt. 441. The sign says: Construction Alert! This path will be closed at 6 a.m. Saturday August 10.

The gates will block entry from Paradise to the path that TV maintains which has pavers and lights. It goes into the parking lot for several medical offices before going through the recently paved path by the new assisted living facility and onto Lowe's.

Curious as to what was going on, I called someone I know who works for the VCDD and was told that the Villages Hospital owns the property and the powers-that-be are closing access to golf carts to that area permanently. Why? I don't know.






I am very upset and confused. Does anyone know anything more about this? Not only will it prevent Villagers from going by cart to many, many businesses and doctors' offices, it will prevent people in the other neighboring developments from coming into TV on their golf carts.

Why?

closing1_zps0cf58468.jpg Photo by bkcunningham1 | Photobucket (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/bkcunningham1/media/closing1_zps0cf58468.jpg.html)


Monday the lady lake commission will be addressing this, you all should attend. 6 pm town hall

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

If and when the villages tears down the wall and installs a gate that can only be opened by residents will the new assisted living complex block access to their golf cart path. Think about it.

Sure, after advertising for over a year that their facility will be golf cart accessible and selling some rooms based on that, they are going to not allow golf carts on their property. The owners of the ACL and Mr Brown have gone out of their way to accommodate golf cart riders.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

There is no room in any kind of public statement where an official emphatically states, "I run this district". She has overstepped her authority and is displaying unfettered arrogance and disdain for legitimate resident's concerns. And she is DEFINITELY a puppet for the developer!

This is exactly the kind of speculation that I was talking about and the kind of misinformation that MS Tutt is talking about.

"She is DEFINITELY" "I KNOW FOR A FACT" ETC., ETC.,

That's one of the reasons we have so much trouble in the world.

[GrannyNanny]

The golf cart trail you mentioned has been used by Villagers for decades, and therefore the use of it should be GRANDFATHERED and such use cannot be restricted. SHAME ON THOSE RESPONSIBLE FOR BLOCKING ACCESS for the many who only use golf carts to access medical offices, stores, banks, etc.

[perrjojo]

It is so easy to attack people we do not know, especially when we do not have to face them when we make our comments. Pease do not forget when talking about "the family", politicians and other posters on this forum...they are real people with real families, hearts and feelings, just as you do. Try not to say anything that you would not say face to face with another human being. Also, please don't tell me what you THINK....tell me what you KNOW!

[Mikeod]

There is no room in any kind of public statement where an official emphatically states, "I run this district". She has overstepped her authority and is displaying unfettered arrogance and disdain for legitimate resident's concerns. And she is DEFINITELY a puppet for the developer!

Ms. Tutt has butted heads with the developer on several matters resulting in costs being paid by the developer and not by the residents. I agree with Dr. Boogie that the reason for her statement was to emphasize that she is in charge of the districts and does not defer to the developer automatically. I suspect that people with the perception you display may have precipitated that comment.

[NoMoSno]

Sure, after advertising for over a year that their facility will be golf cart accessible and selling some rooms based on that, they are going to not allow golf carts on their property. The owners of the ACL and Mr Brown have gone out of their way to accommodate golf cart riders.
And I've heard that if a restricted gate is installed, Mr Brown will close the path after the ALC, which he still owns. TV would only have access to to the medical facilities and the ALC. His intent was for everyone to have access across 441. Who knows? Just rumors? Only time and costly litigation will tell...

[Steve9930]

And I've heard that if a restricted gate is installed, Mr Brown will close the path after the ALC, which he still owns. TV would only have access to to the medical facilities and the ALC. His intent was for everyone to have access across 441. Who knows? Just rumors? Only time and costly litigation will tell...

What a boondoggle this has become.......
Worse then the kids on the play ground.

[Justjac]

Such sad commentary for all... people just want to get in the golf cart and spend money.... it's as simple as that... shouldn't matter where you live...money is money.

[EdV]

Sorry, but I am looking at my amenities bill as I type this and the heading says, VCCD Villages Community Development District.

Winston, didn't you mean to say that the heading says "VCDD" ?

Anyway, look here:
Your Community District (http://www.districtgov.org/yourdistrict/index.aspx)

The term VCDD refers generically to all the CDDs that make up what is known as "The Villages". It should not be confused with the individual CDDs. The VHA proposal is to turn over the plot of land to the CDD that has jurisdiction over that area, namely the VCCDD.

Maybe I should start charging a consulting fee. Perhaps 1 happy hour cocktail per day.

This is so funny.

With all these “Vs” “Cs” and “Ds” getting all tangled up it should be pretty obvious that Happy Hour is well under way right now down there in Florida. Wish I was there.

[Skybo]

It seems to me that VCDD and VCCDD are used interchangeably. Is there a difference between the two? And if so, what does VCCDD stand for? In any case...I send my checks to the VCDD, since that's who sends me the bill.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

And I've heard that if a restricted gate is installed, Mr Brown will close the path after the ALC, which he still owns. TV would only have access to to the medical facilities and the ALC. His intent was for everyone to have access across 441. Who knows? Just rumors? Only time and costly litigation will tell...

There are a lot of rumors and speculation going around today. I wouldn't put much stock in any of it.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

It seems to me that VCDD and VCCDD are used interchangeably. Is there a difference between the two? And if so, what does VCCDD stand for? In any case...I send my checks to the VCDD, since that's who sends me the bill.

There is a definite difference between the two as EdV has pointed out. I thought about this after I made my post.
VCDD is the overall government of the Villages. There are 12 districts within that government. Ten are simply called District1, District 2, etc. The other two districts are the lake Sumter District and the Villages Center District. I'd never heard it referred to as the Villages Center Community Development District but it definitely is. It does make it confusing when people refer to "The District".
The question I have is, is Janet Tutt head of the VCDD or the VCCDD?

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

What a boondoggle this has become.......
Worse then the kids on the play ground.

See, this is just what I've been talking about and what Janet Tutt was talking about. Is it a boondoggle or have the powers that be settled the thing? What has made it appear to be a boondoggle is all of the rumor and speculation on social media sites and among the residents themselves.

Maybe it is a boondoggle, but maybe it was just an over sight that has been rectified.

[mulligan]

Winston, didn't you mean to say that the heading says "VCDD" ?

Anyway, look here:
Your Community District (http://www.districtgov.org/yourdistrict/index.aspx)

The term VCDD refers generically to all the CDDs that make up what is known as "The Villages". It should not be confused with the individual CDDs. The VHA proposal is to turn over the plot of land to the CDD that has jurisdiction over that area, namely the VCCDD.

Maybe I should start charging a consulting fee. Perhaps 1 happy hour cocktail per day.

This is so funny.

With all these “Vs” “Cs” and “Ds” getting all tangled up it should be pretty obvious that Happy Hour is well under way right now down there in Florida. Wish I was there.

Ed, vcdd was in fact the entity I referred to, Technically in error. I stand corrected.

[Steve9930]

See, this is just what I've been talking about and what Janet Tutt was talking about. Is it a boondoggle or have the powers that be settled the thing? What has made it appear to be a boondoggle is all of the rumor and speculation on social media sites and among the residents themselves.

Maybe it is a boondoggle, but maybe it was just an over sight that has been rectified.

One persons oversight is another's boondoggle. If you look at the definition of a boondoggle this one fits pretty well.

[TheCollierCpl]

That is not an "official" Villages golf cart path. It was bult by Villagers and never authorized.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Janet Tutt is the head of the VCDD. Is that not the entity to whom the lot will be deeded?

[schwarz]

I talked to Janet Tutt. She took the time to explain that the developer put up the wall, for security reasons. She defends the idea that it was Not SNEAKY, and she praises the fact that a solution was reached so quickly. She would not appologize for the way the way was built, but insists its for security reasons. The wall should come down very soon, possibly as soon as this weekend, or Monday. It will be a gated access,for residents only. I suggest you all call Janet Tutt, the District Manager . Her number is 753 6430. Her e mail is Janet.tutt@districtgov.org. I sure did not hear an appology for the way it was built, I heard a defensive position, of a person spouting the politically correct answers. She seamed more conserned about the cost to replace the " damaged" grass, then the residents. Sallie Schwarz

[sueandskip]

It is to keep the golf carts from stone crest out...They did not buy in TV so access to the cart trails are off limits...Simple

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I wonder if the cart path from Tarrson to the post office and Circle K will now be closed for security reasons.
It is really unfortunate that Ms. Tutt did not apologize for the way that this was handled or explained more clearly why the gate suddenly, after 20 years presented a security risk. That is the kind of behavior that keeps the misinformation and speculation going.
But hopefully one the wall comes down and we are able to get to the medical facilities, Lowes, Aldi and all the rest of those businesses all of this will stop.

[bkcunningham1]

I wonder if the cart path from Tarrson to the post office and Circle K will now be closed for security reasons.
It is really unfortunate that Ms. Tutt did not apologize for the way that this was handled or explained more clearly why the gate suddenly, after 20 years presented a security risk. That is the kind of behavior that keeps the misinformation and speculation going.
But hopefully one the wall comes down and we are able to get to the medical facilities, Lowes, Aldi and all the rest of those businesses all of this will stop.

Or the one gate in Silver Lake that is wide opened and doesn't even have an arm?

[graciegirl]

Or the one gate in Silver Lake that is wide opened and doesn't even have an arm?

You can't get blood out of a turnip.

Apparently this is the way the owners choose to operate. They aren't transparent and they don't much seem to care if their decisions are popular. Those of us who foolishly hope for the best and want to see good and think positively will continue to do so and those of us who very realistically want things solved immediately and the reason known for why things happen and for people in charge to behave graciously may again be disappointed.

Will the end justify the means? I selfishly hope so. I moved here for peace and good times.

I said I wouldn't post until the gate went up.

See how much resolve I have?

Good morning. It's a beautiful day in The Villages. We have fewer days ahead then those behind. Enjoy the heck outa this one.

[red tail]

well the good news is, aside from the nonsense, is that a lot of 'lurkers' became members of totv which will make the advertisers happy and keep the forum healthy!

[CFrance]

You can't get blood out of a turnip.

Apparently this is the way the owners choose to operate. They aren't transparent and they don't much seem to care if their decisions are popular. Those of us who foolishly hope for the best and want to see good and think positively will continue to do so and those of us who very realistically want things solved immediately and the reason known for why things happen and for people in charge to behave graciously may again be disappointed.

Will the end justify the means? I selfishly hope so. I moved here for peace and good times.

I said I wouldn't post until the gate went up.

See how much resolve I have?

Good morning. It's a beautiful day in The Villages. We have fewer days ahead then those behind. Enjoy the heck outa this one.

And I told myself I would remain neutral in regards to the developer, and that didn't work either, so you're not alone in failing your own resolutions, Gracie.

It IS a beautiful day, and we are all so lucky.

[justjim]

One very good "thing" came from this Thread. Now, I know the difference between VCDD and VCCDD. I've been staying up late at night wondering about that...... As mentioned a couple of times in this Thread, this "smelled of lawyers" from the first hours and I still believe that was the case. Whatever, as my mother use to say " this crisis too will pass". Enjoy your day---Gracie in her wisdom has spoken----we have fewer days ahead than we had behind. Very true.

[TVMayor]

Documents show that path where ‘wall’ went up was designated for carts in ’98
August 12, 2013 By Site Admin 158 Comments
Lady Lake Commission document from 1998.

Lady Lake Commission document from 1998.

Lady Lake documents show that the golf cart path where the infamous “Berlin Wall” went up this weekend on the Historic Side of The Villages was officially designated in 1998 as a golf cart thoroughfare.

The documentation indicates that the concern 15 years ago was residents’ ability to reach medical facilities.

“This morning in our research we found that back in 1998 a resolution (see attached) was approved to vacate lot 3422 so that it may be used as a thoroughfare for golf carts pursuant to a site plan approved by the Town Commission (we have also located the 1998 site plan and it shows the concrete golf cart path with signage),” Town Manager Kris Kollgaard wrote in an email to Mayor Jim Richards and town commissioners.

And Kollgaard indicated that a construction company attempted to file a demolition permit with the town to tear down the wall.

“A few minutes ago an application for a Demolition permit to prepare the site for a new single family residence was brought in from Murrays construction for this lot (1157 Paradise Dr),” Kollgaard wrote in the email.

“I gave the permit back to them and advised that there will be discussion at Monday’s meeting regarding this lot and that they were welcome to attend the meeting,” she said in the email.

The Lady Lake Commission will meet at 6 p.m. Monday at Town Hall and the wall is on the agenda.

The topic of the new barricade will be on the agenda at the Lady Lake Commission meeting at 6 p.m. Monday. SNIP
Documents show that path where 'wall' went up was designated for carts in '98 - ************** (http://www.**************.com/berlin-wall-irks-golf-cart-drivers-on-historic-side/)

[DaBears]

Ahhh, It does my heart good to see that Hypocrisy is alive and well in TV.

The proposed solution to the Berlin Wall is to replace it with a gate that allows Village residents access to Medical Services, Restaurants and Business’ located on Non-Village property. All the while denying Non-Village Residents the same rights. You know those “Evil StoneCrest Residents”. The handful that use this path to access Medical Services, Restaurants and Business’. How dare they feel like they have a right to use the path as a means to access the public roads inside TV. After all just because their Tax Dollars were and are used to build and maintain these roads. Who do they think they are? To think they have a right to come over here and spend their money on things like Health Care, Food or Other Things.

The party line that this whole issue arouse over “Security Concerns” brings up the question, If there is a problem with crimes being committed in Orange Blossom, How come the Daily Sun has not been reporting on them? Really, Security Concerns!!! What do we have Golf Cart Drive By Shootings? Or do we have a bunch of outsiders roaming the neighborhood threatening the residents with their walkers? Sorry I have to call BS on this one.

Liability, This path has been there for 20+ years. How many Liability Claims have been made in that time frame? Really, Anyone know?

Let’s call this what it is. This is a Pi**ing contest between 2 Millionaires and we are caught in the middle.

Look as we are all sitting in God’s waiting room can’t we just get along and enjoy the few years we have left?

[Arctic Fox]

I trusted you guys; now I find out that you have betrayed me!

I read in today's Daily Sun - that bastion of truth and fairness - that its (tardy and incomplete) reporting on The Wall was the only correct version, and that all other sources were lies and innuendo.

So obviously I can no longer trust anyone who posted on TOTV.

Including me.



Maybe the next time we have a spat with the developer we should all cancel our subscriptions to The Daily Sun?

I, for one, won't really miss finding out what the top five favorite breakfast cereals are in The Villages, or seeing numerous pictures spread over four days of kids starting their new school year.

[Arctic Fox]

Liability, This path has been there for 20+ years. How many Liability Claims have been made in that time frame?

While I am delighted that a solution appears to have been reached - time will tell - the fact that "liability" has been cited as the reason for the path's closure is of real concern.

There are two areas of cart path that expose users to considerably more risk than this little cut-through, and are thus considerably more of a liability.

I am referring to
1) the cart bridge over 441; and
2) the narrow causeway from 466 to Lake Sumter Landing.

If either of these was closed due to "liability" then we would be in a real bind.

[buggyone]

I trusted you guys; now I find out that you have betrayed me!

I read in today's Daily Sun - that bastion of truth and fairness - that its (tardy and incomplete) reporting on The Wall was the only correct version, and that all other sources were lies and innuendo.

So obviously I can no longer trust anyone who posted on TOTV.

Including me.



Maybe the next time we have a spat with the developer we should all cancel our subscriptions to The Daily Sun?

I, for one, won't really miss finding out what the top five favorite breakfast cereals are in The Villages, or seeing numerous pictures spread over four days of kids starting their new school year.

I am sure that the Developer will be checking out the local poorhouse because he did not get a $55 per year subscription.:a20:

[ttown]

Of course they would play the liability card. What else is there?
To the newbies...fewer than ten, twenty years..this why we have the POA. i love the Villages and will continue to enjoy the many good things about living here. But once in awhile they do dumb things and need to be reminded that we are still thinking adults .
It isn't easy to get them to listen, but it is possible.

[Bucco]

I have a serious question for those who delight in mocking the newspaper, the developer and such. This question is prompted by old friends up north who have browsed this site and ask me how in the world can I live in such a place.

Was the newspaper misrepresented to you when you moved here or when you subscribed ? Do you still have a subscription ?

Did the developer lie to you when you moved here about anything ? If he, or his rep did, did you call him or them on it ?

Have you taken a course (not exactly sure if it is still offered but it used to be) on the workings and government of our Villages ?

The sarcasm presented here about the paper, etc. certainly would prompt me to look other places, or to look to move. I only mention these because it has already been discussed but there are other comments alluding to sinkholes and how development here adds to the problem.

I am not an employee here....not a defender of the developer or anyone associated with him or his family..nor do I resent his making money on a product such as The Villages.

I just do not understand such sarcasm, etc aimed so directly. To be sure, everyone is subject to criticism, but so many posts do not come across as suggestions or questions, but more of an actual condescending attitude wrapped in sarcasm or total distrust. Blind trust is not smart for sure.

[Steve9930]

While I am delighted that a solution appears to have been reached - time will tell - the fact that "liability" has been cited as the reason for the path's closure is of real concern.

There are two areas of cart path that expose users to considerably more risk than this little cut-through, and are thus considerably more of a liability.

I am referring to
1) the cart bridge over 441; and
2) the narrow causeway from 466 to Lake Sumter Landing.

If either of these was closed due to "liability" then we would be in a real bind.

I'm also delighted the Villages will get their gate back. This will still give Wal-Mart the continued incentive to keep the Duke Energy path open. I feared Wal-Mart would loose incentive should Village Traffic no longer come via Golf Cart to the 441/27 Wal-Mart. I agree with you the bridge is an accident waiting to happen. Very narrow and designed when Golf carts were Golf Carts. As for liability you don't have to be a non-resident to be a liability. You potentially have 70 thousand potential plaintiffs for a law suit. Anyone using the paths could if injured instigate a law suit. Anyone that rents a cart at SS and uses the paths is also a liability and if injured on a path could also instigate a law suit.

[GeorgeMiller061]

When I first moved here 10+ years ago there were no houses south of CR466. The Villages had already bought the land but were being sued by a Mr. Brown of Oxford FL over the amount of water they would be using. This is the same Mr. Brown who owns property on 441/27. All was well until the new Harbor Chase being built on land either owned or formally owed by Mr. Brown advertised that they would be golf cart accessible. I believe the wall might be a little payback for that lawsuit many years ago, which delayed the start of building south of CR466.

[bkcunningham1]

I am sure that the Developer will be checking out the local poorhouse because he did not get a $55 per year subscription.:a20:

Not to derail the thread any further than it has already be taken, but I wanted to say that the revenue from subscriptions isn't what keeps a newspaper afloat. It is the advertisers. You can't get someone to pay the big bucks for advertising when you don't have subscribers.

[Bogie Shooter]

[QUOTE=Bucco;727220]Have you taken a course (not exactly sure if it is still offered but it used to be) on the workings and government of our Villages ?

QUOTE]


Community Development District Orientation
You are invited to attend our “Introduction to your Special Purpose Local Government” informational program. You will learn how the districts operate and learn other important community information about the people, services, and other supporting entities that help make The Villages a premier community.

No sign-ups or fees are required for this presentation. Sessions are held every Thursday at 10:00 a.m. at the District Office, 3201 Wedgewood Lane, in the Conference Room at the east end of the building next to the Customer Service Center.

You may call 352-753-4508 for additional information.

[bkcunningham1]

I have a serious question for those who delight in mocking the newspaper, the developer and such. This question is prompted by old friends up north who have browsed this site and ask me how in the world can I live in such a place.

Was the newspaper misrepresented to you when you moved here or when you subscribed ? Do you still have a subscription ?

Did the developer lie to you when you moved here about anything ? If he, or his rep did, did you call him or them on it ?

Have you taken a course (not exactly sure if it is still offered but it used to be) on the workings and government of our Villages ?

The sarcasm presented here about the paper, etc. certainly would prompt me to look other places, or to look to move. I only mention these because it has already been discussed but there are other comments alluding to sinkholes and how development here adds to the problem.

I am not an employee here....not a defender of the developer or anyone associated with him or his family..nor do I resent his making money on a product such as The Villages.

I just do not understand such sarcasm, etc aimed so directly. To be sure, everyone is subject to criticism, but so many posts do not come across as suggestions or questions, but more of an actual condescending attitude wrapped in sarcasm or total distrust. Blind trust is not smart for sure.

Bucco, I'm an old-school newspaper woman from way back. When I was having a discussion with my husband about this issue in regards to the Daily Sun's coverage of the "wall," he straightened me out real fast and set my emotion and passion back in check. He laughed and said, "The Morse family owns the newspaper. The reporters work for them. Do you think CNN reporters or Fox reporters would have jobs very long if they did an investigative report on the owners of either company and went against them?"

That's just the way the world goes round.

[Bucco]

Not to derail the thread any further than it has already be taken, but I wanted to say that the revenue from subscriptions isn't what keeps a newspaper afloat. It is the advertisers. You can't get someone to pay the big bucks for advertising when you don't have subscribers.

Allow me to go on record to say I totally and completely enjoy the local paper. I have always subscribed and will always subscribe. I understand what it is, accepted that and love it.

Yep...ads do pay the bills and the ads are there for those subscribers to read.

I never understood all the whining about the paper. I do not rely on it for what it seems others do, and I suggest dropping your subscription if rumors is what you want to be your news.

This particular issue is one on which I will not comment because I do not have all the facts and it was resolved or is being resolved.

I would ask those who look down their nose at this paper to check the New York Times for their correction page, or their slant on things...same with the WSJ or any paper

And as far as any money being made by the developer....the risks this family took early on....well, lets just say I do not begrudge one cent.

[buggyone]

Allow me to go on record to say I totally and completely enjoy the local paper. I have always subscribed and will always subscribe. I understand what it is, accepted that and love it.

Yep...ads do pay the bills and the ads are there for those subscribers to read.

I never understood all the whining about the paper. I do not rely on it for what it seems others do, and I suggest dropping your subscription if rumors is what you want to be your news.

This particular issue is one on which I will not comment because I do not have all the facts and it was resolved or is being resolved.

I would ask those who look down their nose at this paper to check the New York Times for their correction page, or their slant on things...same with the WSJ or any paper

And as far as any money being made by the developer....the risks this family took early on....well, lets just say I do not begrudge one cent.


Very well stated, Bucco. I am in complete agreement with you - again! I will have to go to my weather app to see if there was a blizzard in hell. Keep up the good postings! :beer3:

[Bucco]

Very well stated, Bucco. I am in complete agreement with you - again! I will have to go to my weather app to see if there was a blizzard in hell. Keep up the good postings! :beer3:

We do not disagree as much as you may think.

This is my pet peeve, and have to be careful, but my pet peeve is folks who get there news from ONE source only, or who watch taking heads on one cable channel and think they are informed, when in reality they are brainwashed.

[Bucco]

Bucco, I'm an old-school newspaper woman from way back. When I was having a discussion with my husband about this issue in regards to the Daily Sun's coverage of the "wall," he straightened me out real fast and set my emotion and passion back in check. He laughed and said, "The Morse family owns the newspaper. The reporters work for them. Do you think CNN reporters or Fox reporters would have jobs very long if they did an investigative report on the owners of either company and went against them?"

That's just the way the world goes round.

Do I wish everyone would heed that. In that "unnamed" forum, my biggest beef was folks not getting that, and then gravitating to where they would hear what they want to hear and then announcing how informed they were.

[janmcn]

When I first moved here 10+ years ago there were no houses south of CR466. The Villages had already bought the land but were being sued by a Mr. Brown of Oxford FL over the amount of water they would be using. This is the same Mr. Brown who owns property on 441/27. All was well until the new Harbor Chase being built on land either owned or formally owed by Mr. Brown advertised that they would be golf cart accessible. I believe the wall might be a little payback for that lawsuit many years ago, which delayed the start of building south of CR466.


The man that sued The Villages and shut them down over a decade ago was Daniel Farnsworth of Oxford. He lives out on 466 almost to I75, if he's still alive.

[deltaguy]

Bucco, I'm an old-school newspaper woman from way back. When I was having a discussion with my husband about this issue in regards to the Daily Sun's coverage of the "wall," he straightened me out real fast and set my emotion and passion back in check. He laughed and said, "The Morse family owns the newspaper. The reporters work for them. Do you think CNN reporters or Fox reporters would have jobs very long if they did an investigative report on the owners of either company and went against them?"

That's just the way the world goes round.

Got that right!

[bkcunningham1]

The man that sued The Villages and shut them down over a decade ago was Daniel Farnsworth of Oxford. He lives out on 466 almost to I75, if he's still alive.

State: One man's crusade (http://www.sptimes.com/2002/07/07/news_pf/State/One_man_s_crusade.shtml)

http://www.ccfj.net/HOAvilang.htm

[PLedoux]

As of this posting workers are taking the wall down.

[JeffAVEWS]

The Wall has been removed.

[N44125]

Topic Stats........

This topic had 954 replies, 72,263 views and 96 pages.

Is that a record? Anyone know of a topic that tops this one?

[njbchbum]

The Wall has been removed.

all i can say is boy howdy!

here's hoping all blood pressures can return to normal. ;)

[njbchbum]

Topic Stats........

This topic had 954 replies, 72,263 views and 96 pages.

Is that a record? Anyone know of a topic that tops this one?

scroll to the lower third of this page and you can see a box labled 'hottest threads'.
https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/index.php
three word sentences tops this one i believe.

[jannd228]

Congratulations to all of you, one week! The power of your tenacity and social media, amazing

[Happy Villager 1]

The Wall has been removed.

Thanks for the update. One question....did they install the gate?

[bkcunningham1]

The wall came tumbling down!

Take a look. Josie Chabert and her dog Chickie is the first cart through the passage after the wall was removed. She lives on Heathrow on the Historic Side.

http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/bkcunningham1/media/081613175352_zps546a0257.jpg.html

http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/bkcunningham1/media/081613175936_zpsa667548f.jpg.html

[barebones1191]

America’s Friendliest City Just Became Unfriendly to its Neighbors! In a recent newspaper article regarding the “Berlin Wall” VHA President Gottschalk was quoted as saying “nonresidents had unfettered access, allowing them to travel in and out of our community and utilize our facilities paid for and maintained by Village residents.” I want to know what facilities he is talking about. I am unaware of any. If he is talking about the entertainment in the squares, nonresidents do help pay for those venues by spending their money in the Villages at restaurants, and other businesses. That can be the only thing he’s talking about. Walling off your neighbors will not stop your neighbors from visiting the Villages. It will only stop them from using their golf car to access the squares and the businesses. They can still use their automobiles to travel on public roads built with taxpayer dollars and adding to more congestion within the Villages. What a tradeoff is that? However, it could stop nonresidents from spending their money in the Villages and hurting all the businesses that need all the help they can get. Be careful what you wish for because you might just get it.

[bkcunningham1]

Thanks for the update. One question....did they install the gate?

Not yet. It just came down minutes ago.

[jebartle]

yea!!!!

[EdV]

Congratulations to the residents of TV especially to those in the historic section who relied on that path the most.

But now that the rights of TV residents have been restored to allow them access by golf cart to the medical facilities, stores and restaurants over and around Stonecrest, will they see and understand that Stonecrest residents should be afforded those same rights to access the public medical facilities, stores and restaurants on their side of that path?

I’m betting that the prevailing attitude will be, “Hey that’s their problem, if they don’t like it they should have bought in TV”.

[villages07]

What a week... Wonder if we will ever know who made the original decision about putting up the wall, its timing, and who knew about it ahead of time? Janet Tutt's statements only deal with the aftermath. I do feel she is a talented, honorable public official who got called in to clean up the mess

In the end, a workable solution though the good folks in Stonecrest and points north won't be happy.

A tip of the hat to John Lennon for our rallying cry...

John Lennon - Power To The People - YouTube (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kFHXhwbQRBc&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DkFHXhwbQRBc)

[Warren Kiefer]

State: One man's crusade (http://www.sptimes.com/2002/07/07/news_pf/State/One_man_s_crusade.shtml)

Villages angered by neighbor delaying expansion (http://www.ccfj.net/HOAvilang.htm)

It boggles my mind how many people post incorrect information. I am speaking of a Mr. Brown and the water usage issue. Where in the world did thios poster come up with the name Brown ?????

[Halibut]

Congratulations to the residents of TV especially to those in the historic section who relied on that path the most.

But now that the rights of TV residents have been restored to allow them access by golf cart to the medical facilities, stores and restaurants over and around Stonecrest, will they see and understand that Stonecrest residents should be afforded those same rights to access the public medical facilities, stores and restaurants on their side of that path?

I’m betting that the prevailing attitude will be, “Hey that’s their problem, if they don’t like it they should have bought in TV”.

I'm personally sorry that my neighbors have been cut off and I'm also sad to say I believe you're right about the reaction of many TV residents, Ed. Fighting for one's own rights is a natural impulse, but agitating for someone else's is not, especially if it's to your detriment. Some Villagers will no doubt be glad that access has been restricted.

[njbchbum]

Congratulations to the residents of TV especially to those in the historic section who relied on that path the most.

But now that the rights of TV residents have been restored to allow them access by golf cart to the medical facilities, stores and restaurants over and around Stonecrest, will they see and understand that Stonecrest residents should be afforded those same rights to access the public medical facilities, stores and restaurants on their side of that path?

I’m betting that the prevailing attitude will be, “Hey that’s their problem, if they don’t like it they should have bought in TV”.

i hope that stonecrest has some folks who are able to attend the lady lake meeting on monday nite so they can find out how the issue of the wall is going to be discussed there.

[JeffAVEWS]

I don't think this is over. We had better go to that Lady Lake town meeting on Monday. The developers plan B is to build a home there. Read this Crew removes polarizing 'Berlin Wall,' Mayor Richards says questions remain - ************** (http://www.**************.com/berlin-wall-irks-golf-cart-drivers-on-historic-side/)

[schwarz]

There are no gates installed yet. This fight is not over yet people. Go to the meeting at the Lady Lake town hall at 6pm on Monday . We deserve an explanation. Lets stick together and get this finished.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I don't think this is over. We had better go to that Lady Lake town meeting on Monday. The developers plan B is to build a home there. Read this Crew removes polarizing 'Berlin Wall,' Mayor Richards says questions remain - ************** (http://www.**************.com/berlin-wall-irks-golf-cart-drivers-on-historic-side/)

That looks like the same article that was run yesterday with the first seven or eight paragraphs added

[JeffAVEWS]

I'm personally sorry that my neighbors have been cut off and I'm also sad to say I believe you're right about the reaction of many TV residents, Ed. Fighting for one's own rights is a natural impulse, but agitating for someone else's is not, especially if it's to your detriment. Some Villagers will no doubt be glad that access has been restricted.

Ed if what the Mayor of Lady Lake said is true, that it is town property, there will never be a gate. I for one welcome the Stonecrest resident to use the paths.

[justjim]

Maybe a Stonecrest resident could answer----how many carts a day would you say travel from Stonecrest to Spanish Springs and or Sumter Landing? My educated guess is few---less than 25 maybe even less than 20. Anybody in Stonecrest have a number? How about you Ed? Point being I just don't see the problem with it or how that Clogs up our cart paths. Why can't we (TV) be good neighbors.

[ttown]

I find the statement in the article about demolition to build a home disturbing. We need to stay on top of this.

[Steve9930]

Maybe a Stonecrest resident could answer----how many carts a day would you say travel from Stonecrest to Spanish Springs and or Sumter Landing? My educated guess is few---less than 25 maybe even less than 20. Anybody in Stonecrest have a number? How about you Ed? Point being I just don't see the problem with it or how that Clogs up our cart paths. Why can't we (TV) be good neighbors.

My guess is you are pretty close. I've lived in Stonecrest for eight years and I still have enough fingers and toes left to count on that I've gone through that path. I don't like the bridge I believe its an accident waiting to happen.

I personally would rather drive it.

[Arctic Fox]

Driving on Paradise Drive in the Historic Side this afternoon, we noticed signs and gates at the entrance to the path that goes all the way to Lowe's and Walmart along st. Rt. 441. The sign says: Construction Alert! This path will be closed at 6 a.m. Saturday August 10.]

Thank you, BK, for starting this movement off less than a week ago

Thank you to the many posters (and viewers) who supported it - don't let anyone tell you different; it was your efforts that brought about the reversal - without you the wall would still be up

Thank you to those who posted interesting information about the Villages - our Villages. Even when you take away the misinformation, the back-biting and the repetition there was a lot of factual stuff that people posted, and I, for one, learned more about The Villages in a week than I had in a long time

And, as others have already said, we're not quite done yet. We must let the powers-that-be know at Monday's meeting that this sort of behavior must never happen again. We are part of the reason for the success of The Villages, not just the developer, and WE deserve to be consulted before any major actions such as blocking access routes are put into effect.

Congratulations, good people!

[getdul981]

I have been reading and trying to keep up with this thread all week, but you folks have been so busy posting that it's dang near impossible. I have read many speculations and suppositions as to why "The Wall" was erected. I don't know if it was within this tread or another one, but I am of the opinion that it was erected and now the gate is going to be erected because of the proposed purchase of the property south of CR466A. The City of Fruitland Park is supposed to be voting whether to allow The Villages to purchase the land across from Burke's Barbecue. They were hoping that their residents would have access via golf cart path to Colony's Publix grocery store. They were told by the developer that that will not be the case. I'm thinking that is why the "hole in the wall" over on the historic section was plugged. That way the developer can say that no outsiders are allowed to utilize the cart paths that are paid for and maintained by The Villages residents maintenance fees.

Now, I know some people are going to say that anyone (over the age of 25) can come and rent a cart and use our paths. That's true, but I firmly believe that part of that rental fee is going to the developer for the maintenance of the paths, whether directly or indirectly.

[njbchbum]

snipped

Now, I know some people are going to say that anyone (over the age of 25) can come and rent a cart and use our paths. That's true, but I firmly believe that part of that rental fee is going to the developer for the maintenance of the paths, whether directly or indirectly.

are you including businesses that rent carts and are not affiliated with the villages kicking back a part of their rental fee for that path maintenance?

[co519]

What everyone should really worry about is that this Murray Construction has attempted to file for demolition to build a single family home on this site!!!!

[getdul981]

are you including businesses that rent carts and are not affiliated with the villages kicking back a part of their rental fee for that path maintenance?

No, I was primarily thinking of The Villages Golf Cart Store. Probably most of the rentals you are referring to are to people that are renting houses and, therefore, have maintenance fees paid. I don't know if any of those rent by the day like the golf cart store does.

[Steve9930]

What everyone should really worry about is that this Murray Construction has attempted to file for demolition to build a single family home on this site!!!!

On the other post about the wall there is an uploaded document Resolution 98-106. It indicates that the land belonged to Lady Lake and they vacated it and gave it to Leesburg Regional Medical Center for the purpose of use as a Golf Cart Path. I don't believe based on the document that they will get a permit to build anything. They will be able to make a movie about this after this is all over.

[friartax]

I read that as saying that the Leesburg RMC owned the property and vacated it to the Town for use as a golf cart path. The Developer, therefore, was trespassing and incurs all costs!

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

What everyone should really worry about is that this Murray Construction has attempted to file for demolition to build a single family home on this site!!!!

Who is Murray Construction? Do they own the property? If not how can they apply for a permit to demolish the wall and build a home on land that they do not own? Something doesn't sound right about that story.

[njbchbum]

Who is Murray Construction? Do they own the property? If not how can they apply for a permit to demolish the wall and build a home on land that they do not own? Something doesn't sound right about that story.

if it is the same as this murray construction it just might be fictitious!
Murray Construction - Florida Company Profile (People Search and Company Search) (http://www.bizapedia.com/fl/MURRAY-CONSTRUCTION.html)

did a bing search - you try google - murray construction, florida. thanx

[mrfixit]

if it is the same as this murray construction..
....>>>>>> "it just might be fictitious!"<<<<<<.......


Murray Construction - Florida Company Profile (People Search and Company Search) (http://www.bizapedia.com/fl/MURRAY-CONSTRUCTION.html)

did a bing search - you try google - murray construction, florida. thanx

....I do hope you are kidding us ....

that right there IS funny...

.... "shore nuff' that company has a fictitious name.

:a20:

.....just checked >>>> .... "Villages of Lake-Sumter Inc."....<<<<<

OMG.. even that entity has a fictitious name.

No way....
The over 100 "Morse" family businesses are just a bunch of fictitious names.

...say it isn't so.

[Bill-n-Brillo]

A business with a "fictitious business name" is a real, live business. "Fictitious" refers to naming a business something other than the registered business name:

From Register Your Fictitious or "Doing Business As" (DBA) Name | SBA.gov (http://www.sba.gov/content/register-your-fictitious-or-doing-business-dba-name) :

"A fictitious name (or assumed name, trade name or DBA name) is a business name that is different from your personal name, the names of your partners or the officially registered name of your LLC or corporation."

Bill :)

[fltbuff71]

Apparently, TV did not have a permit to build wall, so he has lost this round. I spoke to the police who were there when it was being removed and asked if a gate was going to be put up instead and he said I doubt it as all roads in all of the villages, including Orange Blossom, are PUBLIC access.

[Bogie Shooter]

Apparently, TV did not have a permit to build wall, so he has lost this round. I spoke to the police who were there when it was being removed and asked if a gate was going to be put up instead and he said I doubt it as all roads in all of the villages, including Orange Blossom, are PUBLIC access.

Another opinion....................from a cop. ??

[co519]

if it is the same as this murray construction it just might be fictitious!
Murray Construction - Florida Company Profile (People Search and Company Search) (http://www.bizapedia.com/fl/MURRAY-CONSTRUCTION.html)

did a bing search - you try google - murray construction, florida. thanx

Take a look at this company: Murray Construction in The Villages (http://www.buildzoom.com/contractor/murray-construction-the-villages)

That appears to be a real company to me.

[co519]

Who is Murray Construction? Do they own the property? If not how can they apply for a permit to demolish the wall and build a home on land that they do not own? Something doesn't sound right about that story.


I would think that if he is working for Mr Morse he can certainly apply for permits.

[elevatorman]

What everyone should really worry about is that this Murray Construction has attempted to file for demolition to build a single family home on this site!!!!

Is this the Murray Construction with John Wise as the CFO?

[JeffAVEWS]

This is not a done deal. Just because RMS owns the property today does not mean that they won't sell it tomorrow. There are no proviso's in the Vacate document that prevents this. Lady Lake needs to take action to make an easement there.

[Steve9930]

I read that as saying that the Leesburg RMC owned the property and vacated it to the Town for use as a golf cart path. The Developer, therefore, was trespassing and incurs all costs!

The document was confusing to me. Typical lawyer stuff. Either way it does not belong to the developer. My best guess is it will remain a Cart Path and there will be no gate. But what do I know I've been wrong once before in my life.

[Steve9930]

This is not a done deal. Just because RMS owns the property today does not mean that they won't sell it tomorrow. There are no proviso's in the Vacate document that prevents this. Lady Lake needs to take action to make an easement there.

I doubt that they would sell to someone who is trying to close it down.

[GatorFan]

John Wise works for Gary Morse and his wife is Connie Duff Wise who owns State Farm

[EdV]

The resolution to vacate was simply a process by which the town examined the proposed plan to convert the land into a golf cart thoroughfare and to establish the fact that the town had no intended use for that lot for supporting town utilities or other such usage.

Ownership of the lot did not change hands as a result of the approval of the resolution back in 1998. As of this writing it is still owned by Gary Morse’s company. And if the VHA’s proposal is accepted by Morse, ownership will passed over to the VCCDD which is totally controlled by guess who, why mister Gary Morse. But at that point, any liability issues would be the responsibility of the VCCDD which is funded by amenity revenue.

And as for the permit requested by Murray Construction, my guess is that they were the company that was assigned by Morse to take down the wall and they attempted to file for the permit as a formality in the process.

[Steve9930]

The resolution to vacate was simply a process by which the town examined the proposed plan to convert the land into a golf cart thoroughfare and to establish the fact that the town had no intended use for that lot for supporting town utilities or other such usage.

Ownership of the lot did not change hands as a result of the approval of the resolution back in 1998. As of this writing it is still owned by Gary Morse’s company. And if the VHA’s proposal is accepted by Morse, ownership will passed over to the VCCDD which is totally controlled by guess who, why mister Gary Morse. But at that point, any liability issues would be the responsibility of the VCCDD which is funded by amenity revenue.

Thanks for the info. Seems like you always have the correct insight.

[rubicon]

I want to thank those Berlin Wall protesters for getting out there and bringing unwanted attention to those outside The Villages that will use any and I mean, the most minuscule tidbit to mock The Villages. You managed all by yourself to make a laughing stock out of The Villages.

Perhaps if you thought with your brains rather than emotions you could have quietly gone bout working through proper channels to get this issue resolved.

[blueash]

If a gate goes up, I predict it will be one with a high frequency of accidental trauma. Get those gate cameras ready. And who will be paying to repair and replace those gates, we know the answer. I don't understand what Mr Morse's objection, if it is the reason, to having residents of F. Park come and shop at Colony via golf cart may be. The additional wear and tear of a few thousand extra people on the paths is minimal. There is no liability from reasonable use and the risk of liability from poor design or maintenance would apply for villagers not just visitors.

[JeffAVEWS]

Thanks Ed, in my case I'm learning a little information is a dangerous thing.

[njbchbum]

I want to thank those Berlin Wall protesters for getting out there and bringing unwanted attention to those outside The Villages that will use any and I mean, the most minuscule tidbit to mock The Villages. You managed all by yourself to make a laughing stock out of The Villages.

Perhaps if you thought with your brains rather than emotions you could have quietly gone bout working through proper channels to get this issue resolved.

and perhaps not, rubicon.

i learned long ago not to judge people or their actions - for they all have a reason important to them for what they do and think. mine is not to reason why - but to try to understand if i choose to and simply insure that i am not injured by their actions/thoughts.

declaring that people did not think with their brains is a most demeaning statement in my book of judgements. i am sorry to see you post such a statement.

i do believe that the actions of villagers and non-villagers was sufficient, for all who watched and listened, to let them know that we are not a group who will lie back and take it and wait for something to happen - but that villagers can be motivated when they deem it necessary to take action.

and, to me, that attitude is not one that makes them a laughng stock..nor is it an attitude by which we should be embarrassed.