[Red White & Blue]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

Well then maybe they should stop murdering people. Whites kill more PEOPLE overall. In fact, most of the multiple-murder sprees are committed by people who are not black.

Can you say the same if we were living in Africa?

[UseYourBrain]

I would want to know the race of the killers (those being executed) before I made a conclusion that the whole thing is racist. Isn’t that also important to the conclusion ?

[UseYourBrain]

Thank you. It is always important to get all the facts and have context. The “news” usually has an agenda to get you fired up and presents only a portion of the story. So asking questions before you accept their narrative is a good thing.

While I agree there is always more work to do, issues to solve, I also see The media stoking the fires. How about we step back and look at the whole picture and where the issues are for blacks. If you didn’t read all this “news” what would you think would be Most helpful?

[transplanted]

Originally Posted by blueash

Nice job of not doing your diligence to answer your own question. The death penalty is much more likely to be imposed in a case where a black defendant kills a white victim. This has been true forever in this country. The same obviously was true when rape was a capital offense.

If you want to see data based on race of the individuals go to
Race | Death Penalty Information Center

The Harvard study which looks at the input of race not just in sentencing where a white death is five times more likely to result in a death sentence than a black death, but also in the rate of executions where a white death is 17 times more likely to result in an execution than a black death.

"Specifically, 2.26% (22/972) of the defendants who were convicted of killing a white victim were ultimately executed, compared to just 0.13% (2/1503) of the defendants convicted of killing a Black victim. Thus, the overall execution rate is a staggering seventeen times greater for defendants convicted of killing a white victim."

You may wish to read:
Catherine M. Grosso, Barbara O’Brien, Abijah Taylor & George Woodworth, Race
Discrimination and the Death Penalty: An Empirical and Legal Overview, in AMERICA’S
EXPERIMENT WITH CAPITAL PUNISHMENT:REFLECTION ON THE PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE OF THE ULTIMATE PENAL SANCTION 525–76 (James R. Acker, Robert M. Bohm & Charles S. Lanier eds., 3d ed., 2014)

which is a review of " thirty-six studies published since 1990 reported racial disparities in death sentencing based on the race of the defendant, the race of the victim, or the race of the defendant and victim in combination"

Once you have educated yourself on the bigger picture it will be completely clear that when a black person kills a white person the death penalty is much more likely to be imposed than in the reverse. This of course only looks at cases where there is a first degree murder charge. It does not look at the situation where prosecutors decide not to charge first degree murder with a death sentence requested if a white person kills a black, as of course now in many states the state of mind of the killer is taken into account and if he feared for his life, scary black person nearby, then that is an acceptable excuse.

This Harvard study shows that in Georgia, the only state analyzed, that the state is between 17 times and 38 times more likely to execute the killer when the victim was white. In other words a dead black person did not result in an execution, except in two cases. Both those cases where a dead black person led to an execution involved multiple homicides by the person executed. So in Georgia, 1503 black victims, 20 death sentences and 2 executions. At the same time period in Georgia 980 white victims and 107 death sentences with 22 executions. A dead white person clearly results in the state of Georgia imposing the death sentence more often. Ok to kill black people, not OK to kill white people.



The races of the killers and victims who were executed is included in the study in Appendix A contrary to your assertion that the information was not included. Additional information is in Table 5 and 6.

So to summarize the result of this study... If you kill a white person in the state of Georgia and are sentenced to death, you are at least 17 times more likely to be executed than if you kill a black person and are sentenced to death. Because white lives matter.

What is it in the state of Illinois? I'm not interested enough to spend my time researching it, but if someone has bothered, I'm curious. And of course we all know, the statistics can be portrayed in whatever way an agenda has been prepared beforehand, so I take any of it with a grain of salt.

[ProfessorDave]

Brilliant response. If those same differences in stats were two jet aircraft manufacturers people would be astonished versus believe these are small differences.

[Delta479]

Stu, you've identified the problem and solution in one paragraph. I couldn't agree more. As an LEO for a span of 38 years, I saw this first hand. Too bad our nation refuses to address the real solution.

[GoodLife]

So to summarize the result of this study... If you kill a white person in the state of Georgia and are sentenced to death, you are at least 17 times more likely to be executed than if you kill a black person and are sentenced to death. Because white lives
matter.

Newsflash; Nobody cares. These are all convicted killers who committed murders so heinous that the death penalty was applied, and the numbers show very few death penalties are actually carried out. The study boils down to 22 executions over a period of several years. Study says 20 murderers of whites were executed, only 2 murderers of blacks executed. Easy fix, execute all death penalty murderers of blacks, stats show that 90% of these killers will be blacks killing other blacks. Happy now?

Let's look at an actual problem - interracial crime:

Conventional “wisdom” maintains that violent crime tends largely to be an intra-racial affair, where whites target mostly whites, and blacks target mostly blacks. This is certainly true for homicide, but much less true for other crimes of violence such as assault, rape, and robbery.

Let us look first at homicides that involved whites and blacks during 2012 and 2013. During those years, white killers nationwide chose to target white victims approximately 93 percent of the time, and black victims 7 percent of the time. Meanwhile, black killers targeted black victims 84.7 percent of the time, and white victims 15.3 percent of the time.

But violence in America crosses racial lines much more frequently when the crimes in question are rape, robbery, and assault. In 2012 and 2013, for instance, blacks in the U.S. committed an annual average of 560,600 violent crimes (excluding homicide) against whites, while whites committed a yearly average of 99,403 violent crimes against blacks. In other words, blacks were the attackers in about 85 percent of all violent crimes involving blacks and whites, while whites were the attackers in 15 percent.

Those broad figures, however, do not even begin to tell the full story about interracial crime. To get a complete picture, we must also look at crime statistics from the perspective of the offender. That is, when a given violent offender chooses a victim to target for a crime, does he tend to target a victim who is a fellow member of his own racial group, or does he tend to go after a victim from another racial group? Here are the facts:

When white offenders committed crimes of violence (excluding homicide) against either whites or blacks in 2012-13, they targeted white victims 95.8 percent of the time, and they went after black victims a mere 4.1 percent of the time.
By contrast, when black offenders committed crimes of violence against either whites or blacks in 2012-13, they targeted white victims a whopping 48.5 percent of the time, and they went after black victims 51.4 percent of the time.[2]
If we factor into the equation the relative sizes of America's white and black populations, we find that, statistically, any given black person in 2012-13 was about 27 times more likely to attack a white, than vice versa.

In more recent years, the disproportionate prevalence of black-on-white crime has only gotten worse. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, in 2018 there were 593,598 interracial violent victimizations (excluding homicide) between blacks and whites in the United States. Blacks committed 537,204 of those interracial felonies, or 90.4 percent, while whites committed 56,394 of them, or about 9.5 percent. Moreover:

When white offenders committed crimes of violence against either whites or blacks in 2018, they targeted white victims 97.3 percent of the time, and they went after black victims 2.6 percent of the time. By contrast, when black offenders committed crimes of violence against either whites or blacks during that same year, they targeted white victims 58 percent of the time, and they went after black victims 42 percent of the time.

City Journal also reports that according to Justice Department data, blacks in 2018 were overrepresented among the perpetrators of offenses classified as “hate crimes” by a whopping 50 percent—while whites were underrepresented by 24 percent.

These numbers are staggering. If America were teeming with white racism, those guilty of interracial crime would be disproportionately white. But instead, the exact opposite is the case. Thus, the enormous amount of attention given to white-on-black attacks – which are statistically rare in the United States – is an obscene and senseless absurdity. The notion of ubiquitous white racism manifesting itself in unacceptably high levels of white violence against blacks, is one of the most destructive and monstrously evil lies of our time, creating levels of racial mistrust and animosity that are wholly unwarranted.

[kendi]

Originally Posted by Choro&Swing

Today you are likely to hear on network news “shocking” information that people who kill “whites” are 17 times as likely to be executed as are people who kill “black” people. This is presented as a horrible instance of racism in action. But what is going on here? I’m quite puzzled.

Here is the New York Times article on the topic proclaiming a “Vast Racial Gap”:

A Vast Racial Gap in Death Penalty Cases, New Study Finds - The New York Times

Here is the 69 page scholarly Harvard University study, “Whom the State Kills,” on which the article is based:

https://harvardcrcl.org/wp-content/u...or-Website.pdf

Here is the chart from that paper on which the Times article is based (bottom of the page, perhaps):

What does the chart actually show: Only 2.26% of people who kill “white” victims are actually executed. By contrast, only 0.13% of people who kill “black” victims are actually executed. That’s where the “17 times as many” comes from. Out of 1503 killers of “black” victims, only 20 received the death sentence, and only 2 of the killers were actually executed. (One a murder of military personnel and the other a murder by a person in the military.) Out of 980 killers of “white” victims, by contrast, 107 were given the death penalty, though only 22 were executed.

Note that the Harvard study does NOT say what the race of the killers was. FBI statistics show that in the vast majority of cases, “whites” are killed by “whites and “blacks” are killed by “blacks”, but this article doesn’t say.

So, I’m puzzled about what we are to draw from this article. I’m sure what will be on television news will be something like “Glaring Inequality!” But how do we fix this inequality? In these days when we are constantly told that BLM, what are they proposing? In the name of equality, are we to cut back on the number of killers of “white” victims who are executed? Or are we to increase the number of killers of “black” victims who are executed by 17 times?

What do you think?

I’m not really interested in taking the time to read the links you posted. But anytime media quotes a so called “study” or “research” people tend to automatically take it as fact. No matter that the studies more often than not are skewed Or just plain lies due to a variety of reasons. Some of which are bias; agenda; sample studied not large enough; sample studied too narrowly focused so can’t be generalized to the population as whole; do not take into account factors that can’t be controlled in the study but will render it unreliable; too many variables in the samples; etc., etc.

[LoisR]

Originally Posted by Choro&Swing

Today you are likely to hear on network news “shocking” information that people who kill “whites” are 17 times as likely to be executed as are people who kill “black” people. This is presented as a horrible instance of racism in action. But what is going on here? I’m quite puzzled.

Here is the New York Times article on the topic proclaiming a “Vast Racial Gap”:

A Vast Racial Gap in Death Penalty Cases, New Study Finds - The New York Times

Here is the 69 page scholarly Harvard University study, “Whom the State Kills,” on which the article is based:

https://harvardcrcl.org/wp-content/u...or-Website.pdf

Here is the chart from that paper on which the Times article is based (bottom of the page, perhaps):

What does the chart actually show: Only 2.26% of people who kill “white” victims are actually executed. By contrast, only 0.13% of people who kill “black” victims are actually executed. That’s where the “17 times as many” comes from. Out of 1503 killers of “black” victims, only 20 received the death sentence, and only 2 of the killers were actually executed. (One a murder of military personnel and the other a murder by a person in the military.) Out of 980 killers of “white” victims, by contrast, 107 were given the death penalty, though only 22 were executed.

Note that the Harvard study does NOT say what the race of the killers was. FBI statistics show that in the vast majority of cases, “whites” are killed by “whites and “blacks” are killed by “blacks”, but this article doesn’t say.

So, I’m puzzled about what we are to draw from this article. I’m sure what will be on television news will be something like “Glaring Inequality!” But how do we fix this inequality? In these days when we are constantly told that BLM, what are they proposing? In the name of equality, are we to cut back on the number of killers of “white” victims who are executed? Or are we to increase the number of killers of “black” victims who are executed by 17 times?

What do you think?

Thank you for continuing the discussion on racial inequality in America. What go the stats you quote mean?
They mean more has to be done in our country to assure all Americans are treated justly, fairly, objectively, impartially, honestly, and without ANY biasis.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by UseYourBrain

I would want to know the race of the killers (those being executed) before I made a conclusion that the whole thing is racist. Isn’t that also important to the conclusion ?

No. That's a different set of data to prove a different set of hypotheses.

In THIS set, this is the hypothesis:

IF the victim is black
THEN the law doesn't consider the murder to be worth harsh punishments (including the death penalty).

IF the victim is white
THEN the law does consider the murder to be worth harsh punishments (including the death penalty).

Therefore

The law values the life of the white victim more than it values the life of the black victim, in the situation of murder victims.

[Taltarzac725]

PolitiFact Florida On Blacks 'Grossly Overrepresented' On State’s Death Row | WLRN

This is interesting about Florida's death row.

I had a friend who was pen pals with two of these inmates at the same time and they seemed a little jealous of one another. The friend was probably in her early 80s when she was writing them both. Have not seen this lady in quite some time and she also went to the demonstrations against the death penalty in Starke, Florida.

[LG999]

If the article/study does not tell you what race the killer is in each incident, how can you draw any conclusion?

[donfey]

Figures lie and liars figure. Statistics can be (and usually are) manipulated, depending on the desired outcome. One way to improve race relations, IMO, would be to STOP "reporting" garbage like this. In fact, why not stop collecting and using race as an identifier at all? Drop it from the census, from "news" reports, from job or college applications, from any public mention? This stuff is killing our country.

[Marshaw]

They problem many have is they use the population as a comparison. It's wrong you have to use the percentage of crimes committed. That's the only fair comparison

[blueash]

Originally Posted by LG999

If the article/study does not tell you what race the killer is in each incident, how can you draw any conclusion?

Don't believe what you read in the original post. The author of that post, Choro&Swing did not bother to finish reading the study. The race of both the killer and the victim is given. But that is not what this study was about.

For the third time, at least, this study is a follow up to a previous study done in Georgia which proved that in Georgia the race of the victim and the killer was an important factor in whether the death penalty was imposed by the justice system.

Please stop posting that we should not record race or notice race. The justice system notices race and is unequal in its application. The scales are tilted in favor of white people. This is not necessarily intentional but all you have to do to understand how a black person in the justice system is disadvantaged by his color is read the posts on this thread. There is a presumption that a black person is more likely to be a criminal. You can't undo that in a juror's mind.

This study was done to see what happened to all the persons who were sentenced to death in Georgia in the original study. If race was meaningless after sentencing, as the SCOTUS has suggested it would be, then there would be no difference in the rate at which the death penalty was carried out when race was looked as as a variable.

This study which was not a poll, not based on made up numbers, not manipulated, not contrived... this study looked at the outcome of all death sentences and showed that race matters even after sentencing in how the death penalty is imposed. Executions are not race neutral. That is all this paper showed. And it only examined Georgia's sample. This paper is a legal analysis of death penalty jurisprudence and was presented to argue that the present status of SCOTUS decisions on whether executions are race based needs to be re-examined.

Read the paper. The entire paper.