[MrLonzo]

In a free enterprise economy, employment is created when an applicant is given an offer of employment by the employer and willingly accepts at an agreed upon wage. Minimum wage is government meddling in that private contract. It started off innocently enough, but like income taxes and every other form of socialism, has grown out of control. There's no going back without a rebellion that would make what's going on in France look like a parade.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by MrLonzo

In a free enterprise economy, employment is created when an applicant is given an offer of employment by the employer and willingly accepts at an agreed upon wage. Minimum wage is government meddling in that private contract. It started off innocently enough, but like income taxes and every other form of socialism, has grown out of control. There's no going back without a rebellion that would make what's going on in France look like a parade.

In your free enterprise economy, employers would be allowed to pay workers literally pennies since there would certainly be someone who would willingly take Pennie’s over nothing at all. The minimum wage prevents that abuse.

Sure, just as increasing the minimum wage adds an inflationary pressure, decreasing or removing the minimum wage could contribute to deflation. Prices would come down and everyone would be happy because their wages would go farther! Except that again, wages are tied to profits which are tied to prices so bringing down prices could drive down wages too.

There just is no easy fix.

[Pugchief]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

If “we” just paid everyone $100 an hour even more people would be in poverty! “We” pay employees out of profits. If employee costs go up then prices must go up to make enough profit to cover the costs. Another way to cut employee cost is to reduce the number of employees. That $200,000 per year won’t go any farther if prices increase to match it and there will be more without any jobs at all.

Originally Posted by Bill14564

In your free enterprise economy, employers would be allowed to pay workers literally pennies since there would certainly be someone who would willingly take Pennie’s over nothing at all. The minimum wage prevents that abuse.

Sure, just as increasing the minimum wage adds an inflationary pressure, decreasing or removing the minimum wage could contribute to deflation. Prices would come down and everyone would be happy because their wages would go farther! Except that again, wages are tied to profits which are tied to prices so bringing down prices could drive down wages too.

There just is no easy fix.

You almost seem to be contradicting yourself with those 2 posts. No there is no easy fix. But I disagree with your premise that some burger flipper would be willing to work for "pennies". In a true free market, an employer will have to pay a market rate. Since no one will accept pennies, they will offer more and more until someone thinks the pay is adequate for the job. That's the market rate. But once the government starts trying to manipulate the market, it is no longer free; it's now subject to unfree forces (regulations) that distort the market. There are always unintended consequences (automation among others).

[MrLonzo]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

...there would certainly be someone who would willingly take Pennie’s over nothing at all. The minimum wage prevents that abuse.

There's no abuse if the employee agrees to the wage. Some employees are willing to work for peanuts to get the training, experience, discipline, and the dignity of having a job. I was one of those people when I was younger.

As far as 'living wage', this society has it backwards. The government shouldn't be compelling a wage that fits the employee's lifestyle. It's up to the employee to adjust their lifestyle to their wage.

[margaretmattson]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

Most waitstaff in most restaurants in The Villages area are part-time workers. They might work a full 8-hour shift, but only for 3 days a week. That'd be 24 hours a week. They might get a free meal during their shift, or a 50% discount during their shift. But Florida doesn't require employers to give employees any breaks - at all (Florida doesn't have a labor department), so it's possible an employee would have to work 8 straight hours, with no breaks, no meal. They are also not obligated to give them benefits of any kind. No sick time, holiday pay, vacation pay. Not even guaranteed minimum hours. A restaurant owner can schedule for a 4-hour Tuesday lunch shift and if there are more servers than there are customers, they can send you home after an hour - and pay you only for that hour.

Bartenders always earn more than wait staff. And at some restaurants, wait staff are required to pool their tips, and the manager kicks a percentage of the wait staff tips to the bartender.

Federal law requires ALL employers to provide breaks. At least 30 minutes during an 8 hour shift or 15 minutes for a part time shift. Employers also provide benefits to their employees. No, a bartender does not automatically make more than waitstaff. My nephew works in a classy restaurant. The tips collected for the night are divided equally among the waitstaff, bar tenders, hostess, bus boys, and dish washers. Most are happy working part time. This allows them needed time to study if in college, an opportunity to create their own business via social media, or time to enjoy and travel. It is a different world than the one we grew up in. Young people make quite a good living especially if they are smart and use social media to increase their income. Quite a few earn significantly more than teachers, policemen, firemen, military, or nurses.

[retiredguy123]

Originally Posted by margaretmattson

Federal law requires ALL employers to provide breaks. At least 30 minutes during an 8 hour shift or 15 minutes for a part time shift. Employers also provide benefits to their employees. No, a bartender does not automatically make more than waitstaff. My nephew works in a classy restaurant. The tips collected for the night are divided equally among the waitstaff, bar tenders, hostess, bus boys, and dish washers.

Unless they are paying every employee the mandated minimum wage, it is illegal to include non-tipped employees in a tip pool. So, the hostess, bus boy, and dish washers should not be included. Tip income belongs to tipped employees only.

[shut the front door]

Originally Posted by margaretmattson

Waitstaff wages also had a mandated wage increase. In Florida, they are now paid $11.98 /hr. If tips fail to provide them $15 per hour, the restaurant must pay the difference. Today, waitstaff wage averages $25 per hour with a few dollars tip from each of their tables. If customers each leave $10, their hourly wage averages $40 per hour. Nowadays, they can earn more than many professional jobs. My college nephew is a bartender. On weekends, he earns $100 or more per hour.

I know a couple of local bartenders who bring down over $60k per year. They are also very good at their jobs and you won't see them standing around griping about customers. That's why they make what they do.

[margaretmattson]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

Unless they are paying every employee the mandated minimum wage, it is illegal to include non-tipped employees in a tip pool. So, the hostess, bus boy, and dish washers should not be included. Tip income belongs to tipped employees only.

My nephew has explained to me that hostess, bus boys, and dish washers are considered a tipped position. No, they are not given the tips directly from customers. However, because they are support for the waitstaff, they receive a portion of the tips.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by Pugchief

You almost seem to be contradicting yourself with those 2 posts. No there is no easy fix. But I disagree with your premise that some burger flipper would be willing to work for "pennies". In a true free market, an employer will have to pay a market rate. Since no one will accept pennies, they will offer more and more until someone thinks the pay is adequate for the job. That's the market rate. But once the government starts trying to manipulate the market, it is no longer free; it's now subject to unfree forces (regulations) that distort the market. There are always unintended consequences (automation among others).

The market is free to pay more than minimum wage now yet we still have minimum wage jobs. Is there really any doubt that if the minimum wage was reduced or eliminated that those jobs would also see a decrease in wages?

If the minimum wage is barely enough to keep one above the poverty line then how much lower should a free (and arguably predatory) market be allowed to set it?

[dewilson58]

Originally Posted by Rainger99

If we just paid everyone $100 an hour, no one would be in poverty. For a forty hour work week, that would be $200,000 a year. If the wife works, that is $400,000 a year!

Like they say, we have the money - it is just in the hands of the wrong people!

& you don't think that would drive hyper-inflation.

the poverty level would change.

we would have poverty.

[retiredguy123]

Originally Posted by margaretmattson

My nephew has explained to me that hostess, bus boys, and dish washers are considered a tipped position. No, they are not given the tips directly from customers. However, because they are support for the waitstaff, they receive a portion of the tips.

Your nephew is not correct. According to Federal law and IRS regulations, tipped employees must receive at least $30 per month directly from customers to be classified as tipped employees. Hostesses, bus boys, and dish washers do not receive tips from customers, so they are non-tipped employees. Federal law and court decisions have consistently ruled that tip income is the property of tipped employees only, and cannot be shared with non-tipped employees. Obviously, a tipped employee can voluntarily share their income with others, if they want.

[margaretmattson]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

Your nephew is not correct. According to Federal law and IRS regulations, tipped employees must receive at least $30 per month directly from customers to be classified as tipped employees. Hostesses, bus boys, and dish washers do not receive tips from customers, so they are non-tipped employees. Federal law and court decisions have consistently ruled that tip income is the property of tipped employees only, and cannot be shared with non-tipped employees. Obviously, a tipped employee can voluntarily share their income with others, if they want.

Yet, a quick bit of research reveals what my nephew has told me is correct.Under the Federal Standard Labor Act, busboys and dishwashers can be included in a share of the tips. The restaurant my nephew works at has a separate dish washing station for the waitstaff. Pots, pans, etc used by the kitchen staff are washed separately and deeper into the kitchen. Waitstaff, including waitstaff dishwashers, are not permitted to enter.

[retiredguy123]

Originally Posted by margaretmattson

Yet, a quick bit of research reveals what my nephew has told me is correct.Under the Federal Standard Labor Act, busboys and dishwashers can be included in a share of the tips. The restaurant my nephew works at has a separate dish washing station for the waitstaff. Pots, pans, etc used by the kitchen staff are washed separately and deeper into the kitchen. Waitstaff are not permitted to enter.

Have you actually seen the W-2 forms for these so-called tipped employees? Is their tip income that they are receiving being itemized and claimed to the IRS? If not, they are non-tipped employees. The employer must indicate and document to the IRS that they are appropriately classified as tipped employees.

A dishwasher who never interacts with customers is a non-tipped employee and is not entitled to legally receive any tip income.

[JoMar]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

Once upon a time minimum wage was created to provide workers a living wage, assuming they were working full time jobs.

Someone working a full time job at minimum wage now, would not be earning a living wage.

Not sure where you got that, but back in my day the minimum wage was never expected to be a living wage, I guess that changed at some point. When I was entering the work force I was paid a minimum wage as I learned the work and business. It was entry level stuff and the expectation was that you move on to find work or would be hired by the company that brought you in to learn. Minimum wage was an incentive to improve. Making it a living wage and then complaining about high prices is silly.

[margaretmattson]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

Have you actually seen the W-2 forms for these so-called tipped employees? Is their tip income that they are receiving being itemized and claimed to the IRS? If not, they are non-tipped employees. The employer must indicate and document to the IRS that they are appropriately classified as tipped employees.

I am certain this restaurant is classifying their employees correctly. It is not privately owned.With the many lawsuits that were won by waitstaff, corporations ensure that kitchen staff and waitstaff are separate entities including a waitstaff dishwashing station.