[billstrickland]

That's why they made the two golf courses with the six inch holes, for cry babies like y'all. And trust me the pros play much, much harder holes than we do.

[OhioBuckeye]

Darien, sympathize with your frustration about pin placement but just my own personally opinion, I think pin placement is to make our Executive courses very challenging & they sure are. Executive courses are easy enough other than the pin placement. You ought to ask yourself, am I hitting all the greens off the tee & the answer is NO then your not playing from the right tees, hitting those big greens ought to be easy & to putt your 1st putt on a graded hole should be easy & the 2nd putt should be in the cup. But I do agree with you partly. It seems like they always put the cup on a graded slope. I guess that's what keeps us all on the public course & not on the Pro circuit!

[Jacksn]

Originally Posted by JohnFromMaine

Over this winter I have noticed some pretty unusual and, frankly, unfair pin placements. Many have been within 4 or 5 feet of the fringe and often they have been on steep slopes at the same time. Most have been on the executive courses but I have seen some on the championship courses as well.

Today (3/26/16) I played Escambia and 8 of the 9 pins were near the fringe and most were up on steep slopes as well. We all had problems with the very sharp breaks, having the ball run way past the hole or coming up just short. While there’s no excuse for missing a putt, no matter the situation, but then again, there’s no excuse for unreasonable pin placements either.

One day a few months ago I played golf with a fellow who worked as a starter. We were having to deal with similarly difficult pin placements and he told us that the staff who place the pins are not golfers. I would hope that their superiors would be, at the very least, familiar with the game and pin placements. There should be guidelines for all the golf courses for reasonable placement of the pins.

We’re not pros playing for the big bucks. We play for recreation and fun. The unreasonable pin placements take some of the enjoyment out of the game.

Rule 16

Requirements for Hole Location on the Putting Green

Q. What are the requirements for establishing a hole location on the putting green?

A. The USGA frequently receives requests for guidelines with respect to selection of hole locations on the putting greens, particularly during competitions. There are no rules regarding hole locations, so there is no such thing as an "illegal" hole location. The USGA believes that many factors affect selection of hole locations. The first and most important is good judgment in deciding what will give fair results. Do not be tricky in locating holes. Following are specific points:

Study the design of the hole as the architect intended it to be played. Know the length of the shot to the green and how it may be affected by the probable conditions for the day - that is, wind and other weather elements, conditions of the turf from which the shot will be played, and holding quality of the green.
There must be enough putting green surface between the hole and the front and the sides of the green to accommodate the required shot. For example, if the hole requires a long iron or wood shot to the green, the hole should be located deeper in the green and further from its sides than should be the case if the hole requires a short pitch shot. In any case, it is recommended that generally the hole be located at least four paces from any edge of the green. If a bunker is close to the edge, or if the ground slopes away from the edge, the distance should be greater, especially if the shot is more than a pitch. Consideration should be given to fair opportunity for recovery after a reasonably good shot that just misses the green.
An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.
Consider the condition of nearby turf, especially taking care to avoid old hole plugs which have not completely healed.
Holes should be cut as nearly on the vertical as possible, not plumb with the contour of the green.
There should be a balanced selection of hole locations for the entire course with respect to left, right, central, front and back positions. For example, avoid too many left positions with resulting premium on drawn or hooked shots.
For a competition played over several days, the course should be kept in balance daily as to degree of difficulty. In a stroke competition, the first hole of the first round is as important as the last hole of the last round, and so the course should not be set up appreciably more difficult for any round - balanced treatment is the aim. An old concept of making the course progressively harder round after round is fallacious. One form of balanced daily treatment is to select six quite difficult, six which are moderately difficult and six which are relatively easy.
During practice days before a competition, locate holes in areas not to be used during the competition and which will not result in areas to be used being impaired by foot traffic.
Anticipate the players' traffic patterns. Locate holes for early rounds so that good hole locations for later rounds will not be spoiled by players leaving the green.
In match play, a hole location may, if necessary, be changed during a round provided the players in each match play with the hole in the same location. In stroke play, Rule 33-2b requires that all competitors in a single round play with each hole cut in the same position, but see Exception to that Rule. When 36 holes are played in one day, it is not customary for hole locations to be changed between rounds, but there is no Rule to prohibit changing them. If they are changed, all players should be informed.
The greenskeeper who cuts the holes should make sure that the Rules of Golf are observed, especially the requirements that the hole not exceed 4 ¼ inches in outer diameter and that the hole-liner be sunk at least one inch below the putting green surface.

[The Mountaineer]

#8 at Truman had the cup within 4 feet of the upper right part of the green. The only thing lacking was a windmill and putting through a clown's face. I agree that the cup has to be moved around for the good of the greens, but common sense should prevail, too. Most of the golfers are lucky to make a putt if you put the cup in the middle of a flat green. All these trick greens do is frustrate senior citizens. We're there for the fun and sun and comradarie. Not to see if we can maneuver through an obstacle course that Tiger Woods would have trouble with. Common sense, hole-punchers! Please!

[Polar Bear]

Originally Posted by billstrickland

That's why they made the two golf courses with the six inch holes, for cry babies like y'all. And trust me the pros play much, much harder holes than we do.

Oh get a clue. If you read the whole thread, you'll see a reasonable discussion of pin placement. And you'll also see many who observe the "radical" pin placements also recommend not losing sleep over it. Have fun.

But google USGA pin placement. You'll see what the reasonable discussion is about. And nobody is saying the pros don't play much, much harder holes than we do. Duh! But the pros don't play pin placements like many on the Exec courses either. That's a pure fact. So quit crying about the "cry babies".

[olemon]

[QUOTE=JohnFromMaine;1204258]Over this winter I have noticed some pretty unusual and, frankly, unfair pin placements. Many have been within 4 or 5 feet of the fringe and often they have been on steep slopes at the same time. Most have been on the executive courses but I have seen some on the championship courses as well.

Today (3/26/16) I played Escambia and 8 of the 9 pins were near the fringe and most were up on steep slopes as well. We all had problems with the very sharp breaks, having the ball run way past the hole or coming up just short. While there’s no excuse for missing a putt, no matter the situation, but then again, there’s no excuse for unreasonable pin placements either.

One day a few months ago I played golf with a fellow who worked as a starter. We were having to deal with similarly difficult pin placements and he told us that the staff who place the pins are not golfers. I would hope that their superiors would be, at the very least, familiar with the game and pin placements. There should be guidelines for all the golf courses for reasonable placement of the pins.

We’re not pros playing for the big bucks. We play for recreation and fun. The unreasonable pin placements take some of the enjoyment out of the game.[/QUOTE

Play one of the courses with 6" holes

[billstrickland]

Originally Posted by rubicon

Yea, pin placement just unfair, wind too, sore elbow .............

I take the course as I find it. No excuses for me, no do overs and no six inch holes. And I do add a stroke to my game if the ball moves

[billstrickland]

[QUOTE=olemon;1205197]

Originally Posted by JohnFromMaine

Over this winter I have noticed some pretty unusual and, frankly, unfair pin placements. Many have been within 4 or 5 feet of the fringe and often they have been on steep slopes at the same time. Most have been on the executive courses but I have seen some on the championship courses as well.

Today (3/26/16) I played Escambia and 8 of the 9 pins were near the fringe and most were up on steep slopes as well. We all had problems with the very sharp breaks, having the ball run way past the hole or coming up just short. While there’s no excuse for missing a putt, no matter the situation, but then again, there’s no excuse for unreasonable pin placements either.

One day a few months ago I played golf with a fellow who worked as a starter. We were having to deal with similarly difficult pin placements and he told us that the staff who place the pins are not golfers. I would hope that their superiors would be, at the very least, familiar with the game and pin placements. There should be guidelines for all the golf courses for reasonable placement of the pins.

We’re not pros playing for the big bucks. We play for recreation and fun. The unreasonable pin placements take some of the enjoyment out of the game.[/QUOTE

Play one of the courses with 6" holes

[rjgnj321]

No issues with Pin Placements. I am a weekend Executive Course golfer still learning to handle my clubs. I have found some difficult pin placements also but enjoy the challenge. Playing is fun and the game is challenging. Never know which game I'm bringing to the course. Hope they continue to keep the pin placements interesting. To easy makes it boring.

[JohnFromMaine]

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

Oh get a clue. If you read the whole thread, you'll see a reasonable discussion of pin placement. And you'll also see many who observe the "radical" pin placements also recommend not losing sleep over it. Have fun.

But google USGA pin placement. You'll see what the reasonable discussion is about. And nobody is saying the pros don't play much, much harder holes than we do. Duh! But the pros don't play pin placements like many on the Exec courses either. That's a pure fact. So quit crying about the "cry babies".

Thanks again Polar Bear.

Originally Posted by OhioBuckeye

Darien, sympathize with your frustration about pin placement but just my own personally opinion, I think pin placement is to make our Executive courses very challenging & they sure are. ... You ought to ask yourself, am I hitting all the greens off the tee & the answer is NO then your not playing from the right tees ...

OB, by "Darien," I assume you mean me.
I don't believe that those who physically move the pins know enough about golf to know how to make the executive courses more challenging and I've had two different starters confirm that.

As to hitting all the greens off the tee, I challenge you to find me a Villager, much less a pro, who hits every single par 3 green from any tee, every time. I just watched the WGC Match Play Championship and many of those guys missed more than one par 3 green during the tournament.

As for the "cry-babies" here, I don't think that there are any. We're just discussing, hopefully in a friendly manner, pin placements that reduce the enjoyment of the game being played by retired folks.

I play for fun (and exercise) and I enjoy a reasonable challenge. I don't overly mind being frustrated by things like my somewhat flawed swing, or my head looking up to see where the ball went even before it's left, or those beyond my control, such as wind. I just would like to see some more reasonable pin placements.

[billstrickland]

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

Don't mean to sound snooty, but there are pin placements that simply do not even come close to meeting USGA requirements for pin placements. There are many requirements, but here is one I'll bet some on this thread are referring to.

"An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole."

Check out the full list here: United States Golf Association

Don't let it ruin your day...agreed. But don't be under the false presumption that the pros deal with some of these more extreme placements. They don't. At least not in tournament play.

The site you referenced, DOES NOT STATE REQUIREMENTS, it states suggestions. The very first sentence tells you plainly that there are no rules or requirements for flag placement. That full list as you called it, is answer to a question. and the first sentence answers the question: THERE ARE NO RULES OR REQUIREMENTS FOR FLAG PLACEMENT.

[drperreault@mchsi.com]

I agree with John from Maine regarding "reasonable" placement of pins on our greens, especially on the executives for one big reason, "speed of play".
I have golfed for a long time and they don't bother me too much but I feel for many of the "newbies", or less experienced, to the game, it causes them many challenges reading the green for speed,slope, etc. Especially if they end up playing on a Level 3 or 4 exec. course.

None of us like to go out and have to wait and wait for slower players. More "reasonable" pin placements that aren't so challenging, is one way to help golfers get their putts in quicker, and help improve speed up play. I know there are many other things that could improve speed of play, i.e. 1) Beginners, only playing Level 1 and 2 executive level courses; 2)More training for them on golf etiquette and slow play; 3) Practicing more; 4) Getting off the tee box and fairways quicker,(numerous things they could do here to help that part of their game); 5) Ambassadors that are a little more active it helping them to speed up their play with suggestions and directions, to list a few.
We are all there to have fun and improve our game. Friendlier pin placements by people who play the game might help.

[Polar Bear]

Originally Posted by billstrickland

The site you referenced, DOES NOT STATE REQUIREMENTS, it states suggestions. The very first sentence tells you plainly that there are no rules or requirements for flag placement. That full list as you called it, is answer to a question. and the first sentence answers the question: THERE ARE NO RULES OR REQUIREMENTS FOR FLAG PLACEMENT.

I stand corrected. They are not requirements.

But neither are they "suggestions". The PGA and USGA adhere to the guidelines religiously for major tournaments. Just to pick one...

"An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole."

There have been major championships where a pin placement did not adhere to this "suggestion". And in defense of the groundskeepers, it's usually due to unforeseen wind and drying conditions. The pros made no bones about their feelings. And rest assured no future pin placement in that tournament pushed the limits again.

I'm not sure why you're making such a fuss over a discussion of reasonable pin placements. It's obvious there is such a thing as an unreasonable pin placement. It's a no-brainer for most knowledgeable golfers. And nobody I've heard has suggested you ruin your day over one. But you seem to want to insist that pros routinely play pin placements like some of the more radical ones on the Exec courses. That's simply not the case.

Wow, this is the second time this week...I must be getting cranky in my old age...but I'm gonna bow out of this thread. It's another thread that's reached that spinning-wheels stage. I don't think there's much new to be said, and obviously (as usual) opinions will not be changed...which is okay of course.

Keep it in the short grass.

[Grill Meister]

FYI, I used to be a starter/ambassador and the pin placement is supposed to be located so that there is a flat area at least three feet in circumference around the hole. This is not only for fairness to the golfers but to speed up play as well. When I would go out in the mornings to inspect my course and I notice situations with pin placements such as you described, I'd call the course managers and have the maintenance crew come out and relocate the pins. I hope those bad guys, perpetrators, toss and turn all sleepless night long after putting the pins on slopes.

[JohnFromMaine]

Originally Posted by Grill Meister

FYI, I used to be a starter/ambassador and the pin placement is supposed to be located so that there is a flat area at least three feet in circumference around the hole. This is not only for fairness to the golfers but to speed up play as well. When I would go out in the mornings to inspect my course and I notice situations with pin placements such as you described, I'd call the course managers and have the maintenance crew come out and relocate the pins. I hope those bad guys, perpetrators, toss and turn all sleepless night long after putting the pins on slopes.

Great to hear GM. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

Wow, this is the second time this week...I must be getting cranky in my old age...but I'm gonna bow out of this thread. It's another thread that's reached that spinning-wheels stage. I don't think there's much new to be said, and obviously (as usual) opinions will not be changed...which is okay of course.

Keep it in the short grass.

Well said PB. We've all had our say and made our points. And, we may not all agree but ... as you say; "... which is okay of course."

Thanks to all for your thoughts. Hopefully all the powers that be at all the country clubs will become aware of these concerns.

Hit 'em, if not long, at least straight and keep that head down.