[Dr.Butler]

Originally Posted by MorTech

What if Latvia triggers a NATO Article 5 event...What are YOU going to do?
USA has no obligation to NATO....NONE!
It ain't 1990 anymore.

I would expect the US to do exactly what NATO did during 9/11. If you don't know what NATO did to help and support us, then I suggest you learn. The basic premise of NATO, you attack one, you attack all. Its literally the ultimate deterrent. You attack one of us, you know the rest of us are coming for you. As an American you should at least know united we stand divided we .....

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Dr.Butler

Thanks for sharing your perspective. You’ve brought up some points that are definitely worth exploring. Let me respond to each:

1. Teen Jobs and Responsibility: It’s true that part-time jobs can instill responsibility, time management, and work ethic in teens—many studies support this. However, making jobs mandatory could introduce complications, especially for students involved in demanding academic programs, caregiving roles at home, or extracurriculars that are essential for scholarships or college prep. A better approach might be expanding access to optional youth employment programs that offer both flexibility and mentorship.

2. Teen Wages and Market Forces: You're right that entry-level wages often reflect market demand and perceived skill levels. But it's important to recognize that the labor landscape has changed dramatically since 1975. When you earned $1.65/hour, the cost of living—especially for essentials like housing, healthcare, and education was significantly lower. Today, even "pocket money" jobs can be essential for some teens who contribute to family income. Advocating for fair compensation and basic worker protections doesn’t mean disregarding market dynamics it means ensuring dignity and opportunity for all workers, including teens. (BTW, didnt you say in you first point that they would be mandatory? Now your saying no one is forcing them to do the jobs. Do you know the definition for mandatory?)

3. Undocumented Workers and Tax Contributions: While it's true that undocumented immigration presents legal and policy challenges, it's also important to recognize that undocumented workers contribute significantly to the U.S. economy including through taxes. The Social Security Administration estimates they contribute $6–$13 billion annually into Social Security alone, despite being ineligible to collect those benefits. Many also pay federal and state income taxes using ITINs, and like everyone else, they pay sales tax on purchases and property tax (directly or indirectly through rent). Yet they cannot access many public benefits such as Social Security, Medicare, unemployment insurance, or federal relief programs. So while there are legitimate debates to be had around immigration enforcement, it's inaccurate to suggest undocumented individuals are simply a financial burden. They often pay into systems that they cannot benefit from. As an additional example, undocumented workers can file tax returns using an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN), and some do receive refunds if they overpaid taxes. However, they cannot claim many major benefits like the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) or Social Security refunds, even if they paid into those systems. So while refunds are possible, they're generally limited compared to what citizens or legal residents can receive.

A good post. Good analysis.

[Pugchief]

Originally Posted by Pballer

Maybe the family needs money. A lot of Florida is poor with crappy schools; probably not The Villages Charter School area though.

Parents' first responsibility is to parent. That means making sure your child is in school and doing homework, etc.

[Pugchief]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

For me, it is NOT a HATRED of individual ILLEGAL aliens. I just see the road traffic and the bridges falling apart and I don't want anymore population in the US. The school classes are overcrowded as it is. The ILLEGALS take jobs away from citizens that have been born here and have ZERO patriotic allegiance to the US. I don't HATE the ILLEGALS. I hate the US systems that allowed them to enter the US in the first place. We don't know anything about their CRIMINAL RECORDS and we don't know if they are bringing any diseases into the US and if they have ANY shot records. We have a measles outbreak in Texas which may have come from illegal aliens. Plus, obviously, US citizens NOT getting shots, which is a whole other kind of mess.

OMG. We have agreed twice in one thread. There is hope for the world.

[Pugchief]

Originally Posted by Dr.Butler

In what world do you think these people live off taxpayers?

Seriously? Look at NYC and Chicago. Free hotel rooms. Free food. Free schools. Free health care. Free phones. All at the expense of the taxpayers. Good grief.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Dr.Butler

Wow. So you think that more people leads to infrastructure decay? Not that state governments do nothing to maintain them. You think that classroom size is due to more people. Not that we do not pay enough for more teachers to enter the profession. You think that a person is "illegal" because the committed a civil misdemeanor (Like speeding which is basically the norm in this state, or driving without a seat belt) makes someone to be treated the same as a felon? Also its interesting that you think that Americans are ready to do the jobs that are being done by immigrants. Here is a thought, they are NOT doing those jobs now. Ask farmers how many Americans are coming in to do them. And you think that a measles outbreak is caused by "illegal aliens", knowing that not getting vaccinated is what leads to the outbreak, while wholly excluding people that travel from ALL OVER THE WORLD, legally, on vacation. We literally had measles beaten in this country until people stopped taking the vaccines. Then they cry when they become infected or lose loved ones.

American citizens would and will do those jobs when they are PAID properly. And, obviously, from the FARMERS point of view, they are going to "say" that they can't get Americans to do those jobs. The FARMERS, which are really mega -corporate FARMERS, are lying. The could get TONS of US LEGAL workers if they paid they them enough. I am NOT talking from the farmers viewpoint, but from what is best for US society as a whole. State governments could (???) maintain existing roads and even add more lanes IF THEY WANTED TO.) They don't. State taxes would have to increase. Florida roads have ALWAYS been behind the rapid population growth.

[jimjamuser]

Classroom size depends on several variables. One would be rapid population growth. Another would be having MORE teachers by paying them more. Another would be keeping the teachers SAFE in the classroom, which would be a whole topic unto itself. And I think that a person is "ILLEGAL" if they meet the definition of an illegal aliens.

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by daniel200

True, they can be grown in the states and then rot on the vine as the fruit pickers leave the USA. It is similar with eggs. All the large corporate “egg factories” in the USA depend on immigrant labor. Same with the beef and pork processing plants.

It is amazing that we citizens of the USA are just too important, better said as lazy, to do any physical work. But so many live in gyms and spas for their workouts. We have a pretentious and plastic society now. You are probably right and we the people should just get ready for what the lack of ambition will wreak down the road shortly.

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

I would define "the rich"as the upper 30% in the US. I had trouble understanding the last paragraph in that post?

I think you understand the last paragraph just fine, IMHO.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Dr.Butler

In what world do you think these people live off taxpayers? Do they get SS? Medical in this country is paid for, not free, so we know they are not getting that for free. Food? We are ALL paying more for that. Please, enlighten me, WITH evidence, what they get from taxpayers. And I would seriously check your source before you use it.

They send their children to public schools. They use public roads and other facilities.They may NOT be vaccinated. They drive cars without a US drivers license. Basically they should NOT be here. Illegal means illegal. I can't breech the border in Canada and EXPECT that their police would handle me with kid gloves and thank me for breaking their law. Try sneaking into Canada and see how much they like it.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Pugchief

OMG. We have agreed twice in one thread. There is hope for the world.

See I am NOT a Communist, never have been one. Grew up in a working class neighborhood. When to church. Liked public school. Played sports. Went to college. Joined the Military. Went back to college. Played more sports. Drove a Chevy and a Jeep. Just a small - town, all - American kind of guy.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Pugchief

Seriously? Look at NYC and Chicago. Free hotel rooms. Free food. Free schools. Free health care. Free phones. All at the expense of the taxpayers. Good grief.

I agree.

[Boomer]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

You go........WOMAN. But I have one small extraneous question-----who is Pogo and why are they right?

Pogo was a character in an old cartoon strip by Walt Kelly. What Pogo said was, "We have met the enemy and he is us."

I agree with Pogo. He very definitely was right.

Actually, the quote about the enemy being us, although often attributed to Pogo, actually goes back further than that, to somebody in the War of 1812. The quote was also used on an Earth Day poster in 1970. But I think it applies to America now, in a lot of ways

Boomer

PS: While we are on the subject of who said what, I am finding myself recently wondering who said,"The light at the end of the tunnel just might be a train."

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by Dr.Butler

In what world do you think these people live off taxpayers? Do they get SS? Medical in this country is paid for, not free, so we know they are not getting that for free. Food? We are ALL paying more for that. Please, enlighten me, WITH evidence, what they get from taxpayers. And I would seriously check your source before you use it.

Many border hospitals have closed their doors due to being overwhelmed by illegal immigrants using the Emergency Rooms and their primary care facilities (by law, they cannot be denied service), and Obstetric services despite having ZERO pre-natal care.

I saw the Maternity department shuttered at my Catholic Charities hospital in DC, once they illegal immigrant population found out they could show up (often from well over 100 miles away), 9 months pregnant and have a baby at no charge. The malpractice insurance rates crippled the Obstetricians giving care. The hospital then hired them, since SOMEONE had to handle the massive influx of deliveries.

After a few lawsuits, with massive settlements (due to the complete lack of pre-natal care), they simply gave up and closed the department...

[Dr.Butler]

Originally Posted by Pugchief

Seriously? Look at NYC and Chicago. Free hotel rooms. Free food. Free schools. Free health care. Free phones. All at the expense of the taxpayers. Good grief.

I get the frustration; the situation in cities like NYC and Chicago is certainly complex, but some of these claims need clarification.

Yes, there have been cases where cities have provided temporary shelter (including hotel rooms) and basic necessities to migrants, especially during recent surges. But these are emergency measures, often coordinated with nonprofits or funded partially through state or federal aid, not blanket “free perks.”

Free schools? That’s been the law since the 1982 Plyler v. Doe Supreme Court ruling — all children, regardless of immigration status, have the right to public education.

Health care? Undocumented immigrants can’t access Medicare, Medicaid, or ACA plans in most cases. They can only get emergency treatment, which hospitals are legally required to provide.

Free phones? That’s a misunderstanding. Phones are sometimes issued to asylum seekers as part of a tracking system — not for personal use, but to ensure they attend court hearings.

Free food? Some food assistance comes from local charities or short-term programs, not long-term taxpayer-funded benefits like SNAP, which undocumented immigrants don’t qualify for.

Also worth noting: undocumented immigrants pay billions in taxes every year through sales tax, property tax (even when renting), and even payroll tax if they’re working under borrowed or fake SSNs. Yet they can’t claim most public benefits.

There’s room for debate on how best to manage immigration, but we need to be clear on the facts if we’re going to have an honest conversation.