[lightworker888]

When we talk about unbiased, I question whether any study is every truly unbiased. We can't even get truly unbiased double bind studies as each person has a unique constitution and history and emotional make up, so you can't even really get a "pure" group. So it really boils down to each person having to make choices that resonate best at the time and then living with the consequence of those choices whatever they be.

Personally I choose what "feels" right at the moment and I know that 100% allegiance to one focus or another is really "out of balance" in the real world, as it becomes so much a part of our personal "story" and who wants to always focus on and reiterate their story when there are so many other interesting things to occupy our attention.

That being said, I do believe that in our western diet, more attention to veggies is important, and even more important is the quality of the soil in which the veggies are grown. There are so many factors that are part of this discussion that it can be overwhelming so I guess like all things you do what you can when you can and decide for yourself what feels right for you.

Dr. Bruce Lipton talks about the Biology of Beliefs (you can see it on You tube) and that really shows how important your beliefs (both conscious and unconscious) in relation to your health and the ability of your body to keep you healthy. It is often difficult for us to discern our beliefs and those that we have inherited over our lifetime. Some of them are still useful and some are really of no use to us now as we have moved beyond their usefulness. This all affects the choices we make and the conclusions we draw. Too much to think about, so I think I will go and play my ukelele!


LW888

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by lightworker888

When we talk about unbiased, I question whether any study is every truly unbiased. We can't even get truly unbiased double bind studies as each person has a unique constitution and history and emotional make up, so you can't even really get a "pure" group.

I think that's why there's supposed to be a certain process to follow. First there's usually a small clinical study of about 17 or 18 people. If it shows some benefit for the active agent (whatever it may be), then they proceed to do a medium size clinical study. If that also shows some benefit, they go to a large size clinical study. And if that shows some benefit, they usually will go to a much larger study which may include many hundreds of people.

I wouldn't worry about double blind though. I think, if I'm not mistaken, double blind is mostly for testing drugs, vitamins and soforth.

I believe the study they use for diet is called observational and there have been some very good ones. I believe The China Study is one of the few really good ones. Try reading it sometime; there's a whole chapter where the author discusses the science behind the study (how and why it was designed the way it was designed).

The study was government funded so the author was not biased by having products to sell. He wrote the book at the end of his career to let the taxpayers know what they got for their money.

No dumbing down here.

P.S. I have Bruce Lipton's book, "The Biology of Belief". And I have a couple of books by D' Adamo.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

Here is a question for Jimbo and VillagesFl. Have the people closest to you, your immediate family; children, parents, siblings, changed to your way of eating?

Yes, I'm glad you asked. I have a great story to tell. An in law of mine was diagnosed with cardiovascular disease. He was waiting to be called by his doctor's office to be scheduled for heart by pass surgery.

Testing showed that he had one artery near his heart that was about 80 or 85% clogged. And the way it was affecting him is that he would get exhausted by the least bit of activity. Just walking around in the house would get him exhausted, whereas he used to do all his own yard work and play golf.

When I heard he was going to be scheduled for heart surgery, I asked if the doctor gave him any other options. He said, "no". So I asked if he had ever heard of dietary measures for reversing heart disease. Again, he said, "no".
So I loaned him a book (from my extensive library of health books ) to inform him of how to go about it. Of course he was skeptical but after reading the first chapter, he was hooked.

He started the diet and canceled the heart surgery. To my surprise, the results were amazingly fast. After a few weeks he was feeling much better and doing light household chores. Soon he was back to cutting his own grass again and playing golf with friends. In other words, the clogged arteries were gradually becoming unclogged.

This is just another example of a doctor dumbing down his patient. And there's a heart doctor with a weekly radio program who basically does the same.

[ilovetv]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

Yes, I'm glad you asked. I have a great story to tell. An in law of mine was diagnosed with cardiovascular disease. He was waiting to be called by his doctor's office to be scheduled for heart by pass surgery.

Testing showed that he had one artery near his heart that was about 80 or 85% clogged. And the way it was affecting him is that he would get exhausted by the least bit of activity. Just walking around in the house would get him exhausted, whereas he used to do all his own yard work and play golf.

When I heard he was going to be scheduled for heart surgery, I asked if the doctor gave him any other options. He said, "no". So I asked if he had ever heard of dietary measures for reversing heart disease. Again, he said, "no".
So I loaned him a book (from my extensive library of health books ) to inform him of how to go about it. Of course he was skeptical but after reading the first chapter, he was hooked.

He started the diet and canceled the heart surgery. To my surprise, the results were amazingly fast. After a few weeks he was feeling much better and doing light household chores. Soon he was back to cutting his own grass again and playing golf with friends. In other words, the clogged arteries were gradually becoming unclogged.

This is another example of a doctor dumbing down his patient.

We are all extremely glad your in-law survived and got better.

HOWEVER....You are not a medical doctor and therefore should not be dispensing advice like that here. I hope people here are wise enough to not go against medical advice, especially when that clogged artery(ies) could have killed the man the next day!

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by ilovetv

We are all extremely glad your in-law survived and got better.

HOWEVER....You are not a medical doctor and therefore should not be dispensing advice like that here. I hope people here are wise enough to not go against medical advice, especially when that clogged artery(ies) could have killed the man the next day!

"Dumbed down" is the operative phrase, so I'm not at all surprised by your reply.

[jimbo2012]

Originally Posted by ilovetv

HOWEVER....You are not a medical doctor and therefore should not be dispensing advice like that here. I hope people here are wise enough to not go against medical advice, especially when that clogged artery(ies) could have killed the man the next day!

This man is a medical doctor that has gone against standard medical advice and has the clinical trials and patients that opted out of surgery.

But understand surgery is required in certain cases.

If you watch the short video it's pretty interesting.

Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn Jr. didn't become a doctor to change the way America eats. He was a general surgeon.

But researching cancer, he stumbled on a fact that changed his career: Certain cultures around the world do not suffer from heart disease, the No. 1 killer in the Western world.

Esselstyn's practice took a dramatic turn -- from performing surgery to promoting nutrition. For more than 20 years, the Cleveland Clinic doctor has tried to get Americans to eat like the Papua New Guinea highlanders, rural Chinese, central Africans and the Tarahumara Indians of Mexico.

Follow his dietary prescription, the 77-year-old Esselstyn says, and you will be "heart attack proof" -- regardless of your family history.

"It's a foodborne illness, and we're never going to end the epidemic with stents, with bypasses, with the drugs, because none of it is treating causation of the illness," Esselstyn says.

The Esselstyn diet is tough for most Americans to swallow: no meat, no eggs, no dairy, no added oils.

"We've eaten ourselves into a problem, and we can eat ourselves out of it," Mason says. But Esselstyn's prescription goes against conventional wisdom, which considers diet only one factor in preventing heart disease.

Other key factors include physical activity, cholesterol, blood pressure and weight, she says. The meat, dairy and egg industries defend the benefits of their protein-rich foods, all of which remain on the U.S. Department of Agriculture's MyPlate dietary guidelines for healthy eating.

Esselstyn's plant-based prescription also runs up against a culture where meat is served at most meals.

"Most doctors eat meat because most Americans eat meat, and if they don't really see for themselves or for their family why it might be a good idea to cut down or even cut meat out of their diet altogether, they might not be so inclined to recommend it to their patients," says Michele Simon, author of "Appetite for Profit."

Even doctors who see the benefits of Esselstyn's diet may not prescribe it for their patients.

"Anyone who is able to do that diet can have dramatic success. The problem is that many people are unable or unwilling to make these changes so in my practice, I try to take baby steps -- one step at a time," says Dr. Erin Michos, a cardiologist at the Ciccarone Center for the Prevention of Heart Disease at Johns Hopkins University.

Esselstyn diet worked for me: One patient's story

To help heart patients and others make the leap to his diet, Esselstyn holds a monthly, five-hour seminar at the Cleveland Clinic Wellness Institute to explain the science behind "plant-based" nutrition.

Esselstyn's wife, Ann, offers practical advice on how to prepare kale, bok choy, collard greens and other foods that may not be on the typical family's shopping list.
Esselstyn began recruiting patients in 1985 and says his diet has worked even on people deemed too sick for surgery. Esselstyn has published results from a small group of patients showing how his diet either halted the progression of heart disease or reduced the blockages in the blood vessels leading to the heart.

"We know if people are eating this way they are not going to have a heart attack," says Esselstyn, whose father had a heart attack at 43.

Anthony Yen, an entrepreneur who emigrated from China and came to love the fried foods, meat and desserts of the American diet, adopted the Esselstyn program in 1987 after undergoing bypass surgery.

"I'm still alive because of this diet," Yen says, now 78.

Esselstyn says people shouldn't hold off on starting his diet until after they develop symptoms of heart disease because most heart attacks strike with no warning.

"The reason you don't wait until you have heart disease to eat this way is often, sadly, the first symptom of your heart disease may be your sudden death," he says.

Esselstyn says his diet works because it keeps the lining of the blood vessels free of the dangerous blisters or bubbles or cholesterol-laden plaque that causes heart attacks.

Two decades after Esselstyn started trying to spread the info of his plant-based diet, the American Heart Association says 83 million Americans have some form of cardiovascular disease and many of the traditional risk factors for heart disease, such as obesity, are at all time highs. The association says the cost of treating heart disease tops $270 billion and is expected to more than double by 2025.

"We are on the cusp of what could be an absolute revolution in health -- not dependent on pills, procedures or operations, but on lifestyle," Esselstyn says.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by senior citizen

Here's an interesting little story about big business and agribusiness as you mention.

About 3 years ago, I had a bottle of apple juice in the frig after the grandchildren left........I usually bought MOTTS but Price Chopper was all out of it, so I purchased the Price Chopper brand of apple juice. The little ones went through a few bottles of it during the visit.....this was the last bottle put in and only half used up.

I decided to have a drink. I wish I still had the photos but I've had a computer crash since then.......lost them. There was a HUGE CIRCULAR BLACK, GREY AND WHITE object in the middle of the Price Chopper apple juice....in the bottle. It was disgusting.

This had not been in there for a long time or left out at all.


To make a very long story short..........I began to do some research after calling Price Chopper and sending them the photos my husband later took of the MOLD or whatever it was in the apple juice bottle. It was huge.

They said that their apples come from droppings in CHINA....as it is more cost effective for them.............I had asked "Why don't you get them from New York State or neighboring Vermont" since Price Chopper's headquarters is in upstate N.Y.

Just last night on the news, they said that New York farmers have not bounced back since our sub tropical storm Irene of last year.....they kept showing the apple crops, etc. Go figure. Apples from China?????

I had done research and found out that the certain bacteria that grows on apple juice, apple cider, apple butter, etc.........is caused by a certain organism.........and usually comes from the droppings.

We know all about the baby formula, and other products that were questionable..............but who would think to suspect apple juice.
Which little kids live on. To this day, I can't get myself to drink it.

In my opinion, the true lesson to be learned here is: Never drink ANY fruit juice. It's a poor choice to begin with. As far as health goes, nothing beats eating a whole apple, orange or grapefruit etc.. In order to make juice, they remove the fiber. In doing so, the sugar content becomes more concentrated. And, without the fiber, the sugar will enter your blood stream much faster, thereby raising your blood sugar too fast. Drinking juice is one of the most unhealthy habits going.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

Yes, I'm glad you asked. I have a great story to tell. An in law of mine was diagnosed with cardiovascular disease. He was waiting to be called by his doctor's office to be scheduled for heart by pass surgery.

Testing showed that he had one artery near his heart that was about 80 or 85% clogged. And the way it was affecting him is that he would get exhausted by the least bit of activity. Just walking around in the house would get him exhausted, whereas he used to do all his own yard work and play golf.

When I heard he was going to be scheduled for heart surgery, I asked if the doctor gave him any other options. He said, "no". So I asked if he had ever heard of dietary measures for reversing heart disease. Again, he said, "no".
So I loaned him a book (from my extensive library of health books ) to inform him of how to go about it. Of course he was skeptical but after reading the first chapter, he was hooked.

He started the diet and canceled the heart surgery. To my surprise, the results were amazingly fast. After a few weeks he was feeling much better and doing light household chores. Soon he was back to cutting his own grass again and playing golf with friends. In other words, the clogged arteries were gradually becoming unclogged.

This is just another example of a doctor dumbing down his patient. And there's a heart doctor with a weekly radio program who basically does the same.

I feel in my heart you mean well, but this kind of anecdotal information is not only terribly misleading but dangerous. You would never want to be the cause of someone's harming himself by accepting this story at face value, I just know you would not. We must be so careful in our giving advice like this. There are all kinds of degrees to everything. A cardiologist and only a cardiologist could make that call.

[lightworker888]

FWIW Just noticed an article that I thought might interest some of you out there. It is from May/12 on Dr. Mercola's site. (mercola.com) He is a medical doctor who really walks his talk. His info is always well researched and if things change, he updates. His mission is to get the info out so you can take responsibility for yourself. His products are great but it is not necessary to purchase in order to get the newsletter. IMHO his video interviews are excellent and all suggestions are worth considering. See how it fits into your belief system and if it makes sense to you.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...thy-heart.aspx


LW888

[skyc6]

In this day and age, I don't feel that a government funded study can be said to be "unbiased!"
Everyone needs to be responsible for their own health knowledge, if they can.
Villages PL--your delivery implies that you don't think anyone knows anything but you and it is your job to inform everyone how to live their life. It is one thing to have a message, but if you can't give a kind, compassionate delivery of said message, it becomes a moot point.

[senior citizen]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

In my opinion, the true lesson to be learned here is: Never drink ANY fruit juice. It's a poor choice to begin with. As far as health goes, nothing beats eating a whole apple, orange or grapefruit etc.. In order to make juice, they remove the fiber. In doing so, the sugar content becomes more concentrated. And, without the fiber, the sugar will enter your blood stream much faster, thereby raising your blood sugar to fast. Drinking juice is one of the most unhealthy habits going.

The grandchildren did indeed , and still do, eat whole fruit as you mention. All varieties of fruit, plus raw veggies. They are always chomping on an apple, pear or grapes. Oranges too. Melons in season. Ditto for carrots, cucumbers, etc. and even raw broccoli.
Vermont is an apple producing state.

However, they also drank milk and apple juice and water. NO SODA.
Apple juice always was the beverage of choice for toddlers. I have read the pros and the cons on the subject....but that's what they drank so that is what I purchased to keep in the frig when they arrived to visit.

They all were breast fed as well....and delivered by midwives. The parents are well aware of healthy food choices......but little ones in school and at their friends' homes do drink apple juice.

I was just grossed out by HOW FAST that circular multi colored mold pattern developed......that's when I did my research on the particular organism that grows in apple products........and was shocked that apple juice is made from the droppings........or at least that brand was.

One cautionary tale about Price Chopper also........we just returned from shopping.......it's quite humid out as it is each morning, but not a high temperature.......but muggy in the store........it appears to be that they turn down the refrigeration in the cases and freezers, and produce displays, etc.......OVERNIGHT........if you go early as we did, and other people also were commenting..........everything is warm to the touch or melting..........then the store must turn it back on again later morning.
Sales staff said this is cost cutting measures. I would think it would allow many unhealthy organisms to grow.

All food is suspect nowadays, even healthy veggies.

I used to love cantalupes.......until a few years ago when I read about the salmonella passed down into the fruit via the cutting knife.......ditto for watermelon. So, how can any of us be sure our HEALTHY FOOD is safe to consume?

I never buy anything that is "low fat" or "artificial sweetener" as all of that aspartame, etc. is not healthy either.

Moderation is the key in all things in life......not to be a fanatic or spartan about anything. Even organic produce can be suspect.

[jimbo2012]

Originally Posted by lightworker888

FWIW Just noticed an article that I thought might interest some of you out there. It is from May/12 on Dr. Mercola's site. (mercola.com) He is a medical doctor who really walks his talk. His info is always well researched and if things change, he updates. His mission is to get the info out so you can take responsibility for yourself. His products are great but it is not necessary to purchase in order to get the newsletter. IMHO his video interviews are excellent and all suggestions are worth considering. See how it fits into your belief system and if it makes sense to you. LW888

Does his research include any clinical trials or data of his own or is it simply selected articles from his reading

So he says in that story fat is needed in a diet, who said it's not?

Are you saying a person can't Get Enough Fat Eating a Plant-based Diet?

Fat is present in all fruits, vegetables, and other plant foods.
Strawberries are 5 percent fat; bell peppers, 6 percent; broccoli, 8 percent; spinach, 11 percent; and soybeans, 41 percent. Several high-fat plant foods contain in excess of 80 percent fat, including certain nuts and seeds, as well as avocados, olives, and coconuts. By eating a delicious, plant-happy diet, you will consume roughly 9 to 15 percent of your total calories from fat, which is ideal.

Getting your fat from plant-based foods means you will be consuming healthy monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats as opposed to dangerous saturated fats. You will be able to eat more food than you ever dreamed of without gaining weight and feel wonderful!


Just a side note for you fight fans, Tim Bradly v Manny Pacquiao last night was won by a vegan!

[jimbo2012]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

I feel in my heart you mean well, but this kind of anecdotal information is not only terribly misleading but dangerous. You would never want to be the cause of someone's harming himself by accepting this story at face value, I just know you would not. We must be so careful in our giving advice like this. There are all kinds of degrees to everything. A cardiologist and only a cardiologist could make that call.

Gracie, do you really think anyone would do that without consulting a Dr.?

A stent can put the fire out and saves lives that's a fact, but what Dr, Esseltyn, Campbel and Orish are advocating is the long term cure is a plant based diet. Now you need not take to level I take it but if you did eliminate certain foods there would be an improvement.

The goal in heart & stroke related illness is for the most part a reduction of plaque in the circulatory system.

This can be clearly achieved thru diet.

Two months ago a good friend of mine who was somewhat interested in trying it due his blood results at the same his dr recommended the popular statin drug Crestor wanting his cholesterol reading reduced.
They did drop to about 105 but shortly after that blood test he noticed bone & joint pain then he had a few beers and got a severe gout attack.
Went to all the doctors they found nothing.

He & I Googled Gout +crestor, wow it is known side effect along with bone pain.
He dropped the drug under his doctors care, pain is almost gone he tried having a beer no pain in big toe (gout), I told him more independent testing is required on how many beers he can have, he is researching happy hour locations

Drugs v diet????

No please don't go off on me, certain drugs are a necessity.

We did this under close supervision by our local Doctors, including blood work more often and I followed my BP at home on a CVS unit that could download Excel spreadsheets to my Dr. I also consulted with Dr. Esselsyn directly over the phone 3 times in the past year.

I'm only leading you to info, it's your choice.

[bluedog103]

Originally Posted by skyc6

In this day and age, I don't feel that a government funded study can be said to be "unbiased!"
Everyone needs to be responsible for their own health knowledge, if they can.
Villages PL--your delivery implies that you don't think anyone knows anything but you and it is your job to inform everyone how to live their life. It is one thing to have a message, but if you can't give a kind, compassionate delivery of said message, it becomes a moot point.

The ignore list works wonders in eliminating irritating posts and posters. Mine isn't long, only 3-4 names but it's very effective.

[donkobes]

Hunt down a copy of Ben Goldacre's book, "Bad Science". It's available in hard copy, ebook and audiobook.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Science_(book)

His approach is real and demands research to back up any nutritional claims made.

Don Kobes