[Altavia]

Originally Posted by stanley

If anyone believes there were only six that died from clots I really need to find the title to that bridge I want to sell.

100,000 people/yr without the vaccine.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by asianthree

Just asking....Why were so many outraged on the deaths of Covid, and yet the deaths from a possible vaccine issue seems frivolous. It is still a death no matter the amount

No deaths are frivolous; all deaths are tragic for someone.

There were 169 cases reported with the AZ vaccine but not all cases resulted in death. 34M vaccinations and 169 cases give a death rate of less than five in one million. Compare that to the current US death numbers for COVID which are about 18,000 deaths per million cases.

Every one of the deaths are tragic but a reduction in rate from 18,000 to fewer than five is a large step in the right direction.

There are a few other things to consider:
1. The J&J numbers look like about one in one million
2. The US and some EU countries have paused vaccinations with J&J or AZ while the issue is investigated and, hopefully, mitigations are identified
3. In the US there are the Pfizer and Moderna alternatives

[jswirs]

Originally Posted by asianthree

Just asking....Why were so many outraged on the deaths of Covid, and yet the deaths from a possible vaccine issue seems frivolous. It is still a death no matter the amount

And that is such a great point. Folks have been so paranoid over Covid, but tell them people also die from the vaccine, they don't seem to hear it. And you can believe that Big Pharma and the powers that be are doing all they can to downplay and minimize any and all problems with the vaccine.

[jswirs]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

No deaths are frivolous; all deaths are tragic for someone.

There were 169 cases reported with the AZ vaccine but not all cases resulted in death. 34M vaccinations and 169 cases give a death rate of less than five in one million. Compare that to the current US death numbers for COVID which are about 18,000 deaths per million cases.

Every one of the deaths are tragic but a reduction in rate from 18,000 to fewer than five is a large step in the right direction.

There are a few other things to consider:
1. The J&J numbers look like about one in one million
2. The US and some EU countries have paused vaccinations with J&J or AZ while the issue is investigated and, hopefully, mitigations are identified
3. In the US there are the Pfizer and Moderna alternatives

And how many of the deaths from Covid are false claims by hospitals. If a person dies from injuries related to a car accident, and that same person test positive for Covid, the hospital writes or the death certificate, "Cause of death, Covid". There is a big difference in determining how many folks die "with" Covid, and how many die "because of" Covid.
All this for a virus that has about a 99% survival rate.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by jswirs

And how many of the deaths from Covid are false claims by hospitals. If a person dies from injuries related to a car accident, and that same person test positive for Covid, the hospital writes or the death certificate, "Cause of death, Covid". There is a big difference in determining how many folks die "with" Covid, and how many die "because of" Covid.
All this for a virus that has about a 99% survival rate.

I haven't seen any information on false claims by hospitals other than assertions such as these. Do YOU have any basis for your statements? Can you provide links to any significant number of documented cases? There have been something like 600,000 deaths associated with COVID. If even 1% of those were false claims then that would make 6,000 false claims; it shouldn't be too hard to provide links to a few hundred, right?

There may be a big difference in determining how to separate the death certificates between "false claims," "with" Covid, and "because of" Covid but in the end that's just a distraction. Whichever bin the death certificates fall into, there are still about 600,000 more death certificates associated with Covid and the number is climbing daily. Let's wait to argue about "primary cause" or "contributing factor" or "hanging chads" until after the daily death numbers drop to fewer than 100.

99% survival rate. The published numbers show that to be more like 98% in the US but hey, 99% sounds better. If your electricity was 99% reliable that would mean you only had a total outage about four times per year or 100 hours per year. Nothing wrong with that, it's about 99% reliable. Four days without heat in the winter? That's okay, it's 99% reliable. 100 hours without power for the oxygen machine? That's okay, it's still 99% reliable.

A traffic light at a four-way intersection might have a three-minute cycle time; every three minutes it switches from red to green or from green to red. 20 times per hour, about 500 times per day. If the light was about 99% reliable then only five times per day would both directions have a green light at the same time. Normally, you see a green light and drive through the intersection without any thought. How would that change if you knew that five times every day the cross traffic had a green light too? That's 99% reliable.

I have had the flu and didn't like it. I wasn't hospitalized but I was uncomfortable enough that I don't want the symptoms again. I now get a flu shot along with many others. The CDC estimates that during the 2018-2019 flu season there were 35M cases with 34,200 deaths. There have been four million fewer documented Covid cases and 16 times more deaths. Maybe the question isn't why we would do all this for a virus that has a 99% survival rate (if that were even accurate); maybe the question should be why wouldn't we do this for a virus that is 16 times deadlier than the flu?

[FromNY]

Those that want a vaccine will get it. Those who are against vaccine, no changing their minds.
That being said ,notice as soon as J&J was stopped or even before its numbers decreased, Pfizer and Moderna were substituted. Seems there is an over abundance of those drugs that need to go into arms.?? Money was paid for how many millions of doses? J &J was the late comer. Most people want easy one and done. Yes abundance of caution is a good thing if done for all the vaccines. Just wondering if there is something else going on.? Push people to get the two shots more money? Use up supply, stock price driven?

[blueash]

Originally Posted by blueash View Post

A Dutch article reports[/URL] the annual rate of CVST of 13.2 per 1 million adults. That would translate to 13.2 divided by 52 to get the weekly rate 1/4 case per million per week. So the rate reported is 4 times the background rate in that study.

Originally Posted by Robbie0723

Sorry, you lost me here?

52 in 52 million is still 1 per million?

Sorry. Remember in math class how the teacher said to show all your work. I failed to do that. The 52 is not 52 million people, it is 52 weeks in a year. If you know the number of deaths in one week and you want to know, if that rate continues, how many deaths will there be in a year, you need to multiple the deaths by 52.

Example 5 people died in Smithville from gunshots last week where the population is one million. What is the yearly death rate from gunshots?

Answer If 5 people die every week then in one year 5 times 52 will die, or 260 deaths per million

The issue with the Covid vaccine clot number is that so far all the reports are in a one week time frame. I'd like to think that the vaccine only may present a very tiny risk of clots to a particular patient segment for a short time, but I don't have enough data to say that yet. The question in assessing whether the shot causes clots is whether the expected number of clots detected is any different than the expected number in an unvaccinated population, the background rate.

The announcement that the clots are only seen in one per million is accurate but all the cases appeared in a one week period. If new clots continue to form each and every week then you'd get 52 per million in a year. I was comparing that to the background rate of 13 per million per year which is the highest number I saw in my brief literature search.

If 13 per million people get clots a year, then the weekly rate is 1/52 of the yearly rate. In the gunshot example if I tell you that 260 per million die in a year, to get the weekly rate you have to divide the 260 by 52 to get 5 deaths per million per week. If 13 die in a year then 1/4 person dies per week. In the Covid vaccines the rate described is 1 per million doses in one week.

There are lots of wrong assumptions here I hope. I truly believe that if there is a causal relationship of the adenoviral vaccines [J & J and AZ] that there is likely a very brief period of risk and that it will not be ongoing. But until i have that data, like the gunshot situation, I can use a short term finding and extend it. See why I didn't show my work!

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by blueash

Sorry. Remember in math class how the teacher said to show all your work. I failed to do that. The 52 is not 52 million people, it is 52 weeks in a year. If you know the number of deaths in one week and you want to know, if that rate continues, how many deaths will there be in a year, you need to multiple the deaths by 52.

Example 5 people died in Smithville from gunshots last week where the population is one million. What is the yearly death rate from gunshots?

Answer If 5 people die every week then in one year 5 times 52 will die, or 260 deaths per million

The issue with the Covid vaccine clot number is that so far all the reports are in a one week time frame. I'd like to think that the vaccine only may present a very tiny risk of clots to a particular patient segment for a short time, but I don't have enough data to say that yet. The question in assessing whether the shot causes clots is whether the expected number of clots detected is any different than the expected number in an unvaccinated population, the background rate.

The announcement that the clots are only seen in one per million is accurate but all the cases appeared in a one week period. If new clots continue to form each and every week then you'd get 52 per million in a year. I was comparing that to the background rate of 13 per million per year which is the highest number I saw in my brief literature search.

If 13 per million people get clots a year, then the weekly rate is 1/52 of the yearly rate. In the gunshot example if I tell you that 260 per million die in a year, to get the weekly rate you have to divide the 260 by 52 to get 5 deaths per million per week. If 13 die in a year then 1/4 person dies per week. In the Covid vaccines the rate described is 1 per million doses in one week.

There are lots of wrong assumptions here I hope. I truly believe that if there is a causal relationship of the adenoviral vaccines [J & J and AZ] that there is likely a very brief period of risk and that it will not be ongoing. But until i have that data, like the gunshot situation, I can use a short term finding and extend it. See why I didn't show my work!

You claim that the reported clotting events were all from a single week but where did you get that idea? Do you mean to imply that there have been more events but those were not counted since they were not from the particular week?

I have seen reports of 169 events from 34M AZ injections with no reference to which week of the year these were reported. In fact, the paper that mentioned the 169 events initially discussed 62 events but added in a footnote that the number had climbed to 169 over time.

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

I haven't seen any information on false claims by hospitals other than assertions such as these. Do YOU have any basis for your statements? Can you provide links to any significant number of documented cases? There have been something like 600,000 deaths associated with COVID. If even 1% of those were false claims then that would make 6,000 false claims; it shouldn't be too hard to provide links to a few hundred, right?

The Director of Public Health in Colorado (I believe) admitted this last Summer/Fall.

She specifically stated that an MVA with a covid positive corpse would be listed as a covid death...

People who were sent to Hospice to die (with Stave 4 Cancer) were listed as a covid death if they happened to test positive...

[stanley]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

I haven't seen any information on false claims by hospitals other than assertions such as these. Do YOU have any basis for your statements? Can you provide links to any significant number of documented cases?

Death certificate data: COVID-19 as the underlying cause of death - The Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine

[DonnaNi4os]

I’d be curious to learn if the women who experienced blood clots following the J&J vaccine were on birth control pills. Especially for smokers, blood clots are a risk to those who smoke and take birth control pills. The risk of clots are minuscule....unless you happen to be the one effected. We all have to make our own choices and how wonderful that we live in a country that allows the choice and also is willing to halt the distribution of these vaccines until a clear reason for the adverse reaction is found.

[blueash]

Originally Posted by FromNY

Those that want a vaccine will get it. Those who are against vaccine, no changing their minds.
That being said ,notice as soon as J&J was stopped or even before its numbers decreased, Pfizer and Moderna were substituted. Seems there is an over abundance of those drugs that need to go into arms.?? Money was paid for how many millions of doses? J &J was the late comer. Most people want easy one and done. Yes abundance of caution is a good thing if done for all the vaccines. Just wondering if there is something else going on.? Push people to get the two shots more money? Use up supply, stock price driven?

I really believe there are some things that would change the minds of those that are declining vaccine now. One is if one of their loved ones gets hospitalized or dies with Covid. The mayor of Ocala after he got Covid changed his tune and Ocala has a mask mandate for businesses that he opposed until he personally got sick

Days after his discharge from the hospital, Guinn was back at work. Earlier this week, city officials decided to extend Ocala's mask mandate, a measure he has vetoed in the past.

Next is if political opinionators who have downplayed Covid for over a year push their followers to get vaccinated. One leader is very upset that the J & J vaccines have been paused as he feels that he was the person who made it possible. He ought to tell his followers that the vaccine is really important and that he got a vaccine as early as he could even though he'd had Covid. You can't say the disease is low risk then complain about the vaccine being paused. A 30 second public service TV ad saying "The vaccine is important, it is safe, it is effective. I got it as did my wife and all my family and I want all of you to get vaccinated as soon as possible to make America safe and make you and your family safe." I think that would change a lot of minds.

Lastly why do you wonder if "something else is going on"? All the vaccines are being given and all are having side effects tracked. Individual physicians are reporting the clots to the FDA and in journal reports both in the US and in Europe. These clot reports are not being generated by BIG PHARMA or by any secret cabal. You can read the recent New England Journal of Medicine issues to review some of the case reports
HERE
and HERE
and HERE

The vaccines are paid for whether they go into arms or not. If you really believe that some group at the FDA with the CDC and the similar European agencies and the editors of all the medical journals are conspiring to hurt J & J after this country has given the corporation money to get the vaccine to market and has already contracted to buy the product, I can't help you. Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is almost always right. The pause is in place because of REAL reports from the field of clots. As there are products which have not had that complication reported those products can continue to be used. The products with clotting concerns, J&J here and AZ in Europe, have been paused while a determination of whether the vaccine is causal is analyzed, and if it is causal, whether there is just a segment of the population that is at risk or is everyone at risk.

And REALLY IMPORTANTLY, the pause made physicians and the public aware of the need to be attentive to complaints of new severe headache or other neurological symptoms in the period following a vaccine, and the doctors now know what to look for and really importantly not to use heparin which is the reflexive response to clots.

From the CDC

CDC and FDA recommended this pause to communicate with and prepare the healthcare system to recognize and treat patients appropriately. Communication with healthcare providers will also emphasize the importance of reporting and how to report severe events in people who have received this vaccine. This pause also will allow CDC’s independent advisory committee, the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, to meet, review these cases, and assess their potential significance.

[coffeebean]

Originally Posted by blueash

He ought to tell his followers that the vaccine is really important and that he got a vaccine as early as he could even though he'd had Covid. You can't say the disease is low risk then complain about the vaccine being paused. A 30 second public service TV ad saying "The vaccine is important, it is safe, it is effective. I got it as did my wife and all my family and I want all of you to get vaccinated as soon as possible to make America safe and make you and your family safe." I think that would change a lot of minds.

Ya think???

[blueash]

Originally Posted by Bill14564
I haven't seen any information on false claims by hospitals other than assertions such as these. Do YOU have any basis for your statements? Can you provide links to any significant number of documented cases?

Originally Posted by stanley

Death certificate data: COVID-19 as the underlying cause of death - The Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine

Hey Stanley That is a report on the British health care system not the US. It is also not a report of hospitals filling in forms wrong, it is all deaths reported including deaths at home. Lastly the WHO criteria for filling in a death certificate is NOT used in the US where we have our own methodology set by each state individually with federal suggestions as to format. Some states allow "probable Covid" as a death certificate underlying factor. This was really important early in the pandemic when there was a severe shortage of tests and it was impossible to confirm. A death at home with fever and cough during the early days in NYC might get "Probable" on a death certificate. Some states only want it listed with a positive lab test.

Here is a Scientific American piece looking at claims that deaths are over-reported

The CDC tracks all deaths and has a very good baseline for the number of deaths expected from all causes. If Covid really kills people then for 2020 there should be more deaths reported than the expected number. Guess what, there was a huge jump in deaths in 2020.

You can see excess deaths over expected on a week by week basis HERE You need to change the graph to show the USA if you care to see our data.

[MandoMan]

Originally Posted by Robbie0723

On Twitter, Dr. Stephanie Graff, director of Clinical Research at the Sarah Cannon Research Institute at HCA Midwest Health, shared an infographic placing the risk of blood clots from the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine in context with other common causes of blood clots. The risk of blood clots from the AstraZeneca vaccine is lower than that from birth control pills and smoking, and COVID itself leads to high prevalence of blood clotting.

I’m not confident that I have the numbers right, but I believe that the New York Times said yesterday that in the 18-48 age group affected by this extraordinarily rare problem, in the last year, 126 PEOPLE PER MILLION DIED OF COVID. Compared to ONE per million who died possibly as a result of the vaccination. That helps put it into perspective.