[K9-Lovers]

bk,

I wish all farms were as you described.

However, I am talking about large production facilities, commonly called "factory farms". Some of the "factory" farms are owned by families, but they are not the type of farms where the families care for the animals. These large facilities are described in one of your links: "Small family farms make up most of the U.S. farm count and hold the majority of farm assets, but they produce a modest share of U.S. farm output. In contrast, large-scale family farms and nonfamily farms—only 12 percent of all farms—account for 84 percent of farm production."

So, most of our food (84% according to your link) comes from these huge "factory farms" where the animals are not treated humanely, are injected with hormones and antibiotics, and suffer in pain their whole lives.

The kind of farmers you describe love animals. They would not be able to treat their livestock inhumanely. Unfortunately, not all owners of these food production facilities or "factory farms" care for their animals as God intended.

[iandwk]

I watched the video about the chicks in the grinder. I can tell you one falsehood for sure. Male chicks have has much use as pullets in the broiler market. They also grow much faster than pullets, which makes them cheaper to grow for the integrator, less feed per pound of chicken. The main difference is in the tenderness of the meat. Pullets are desired for tenderness. Roosters usually go for further processing, such as lunch meats. You can believe this or not, but it is true.

I can say for sure that the statement is not true and is likely meant to be inflammatory. As to the grinding part, what I saw going into the grinders was mostly egg shells. If they are making a practice of letting chicks go through the grinder, they need to be fired and replaced, and probably were after this film came out. That's just lazy workers doing a poor job, but you get that a lot when all you pay is minimum wage.

As for the rough treatment the chicks get, it may look rough to those who have never seen it, but if they hurt the chicks, they become useless, so why would they damage all of them in that manner? If I had chicks arrive on my farm that had been mishandled, which did occasionally happen, I took a count of them and got reimbursed for them. It was not as often as one might think. I may have averaged 2-300 per year. Not too bad out of 1,000,000. When you complain about it, they make whatever correction is necessary to stop them from being hurt. Why wouldn't they? It costs them and the growers money to lose chicks due to carelessness. Think about it.

[K9-Lovers]

This is a video narrated by the actor, Alec Baldwin. Warning: This video is very graphic. Watch only if you are serious about learning about our food production.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIjanhKqVC4[/ame]

[Ajack]

Originally Posted by Larryandlinda

You have really put your passion into your diet and lifestyle.
We, too, do not preach nor advocate what people put into (and hence 'onto') their bodies.
We keep it simple - find out what's good, try to make it palatable, and consume in moderation. Because we grew up with a huge ray gun picture tube in our faces telling us about eating for flavor and fun - we developed our craving for fried, sweet, rich, and good-looking food.

Teaching old dogs new tricks is a challenge with decade upon decade of
eating poorly.
Yes, we do sometimes get frustrated that the greed of some is responsible for the sickness of others - but the good news is that as adults we can make choices about our intake'
We choose to make the choice of food based upon value, simplicity, so we stay fiscally and physically fit.

While we are part time indulgers ourselves, we consider those times 'feasts' as outlined by Dr John McDougall and Paavo Airola
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paavo_Airola

We're also noticing that with a healthy diet we can function better as we mature. We can get farther on the bikes with less effort, and the mind and body seem to stay better tuned.We are also noticing that we are able to live with less climate control.
And while we realize that sleep is most essential, the healthier diets are working so well we are cheating a little off the sack time with no negative effects.
That gives us more 'awake time' in the Friendly Hometown when there.

Here's something a well-wisher recently forwarded to us, thinking we had both completely gone off animal food, but there are some 'food that had eyes' in the diet

http://www.vegsource.com/news/2009/0...eat-eater.html

Buon /Apetito

L and L

And yet, your doing it again.

[Ajack]

Originally Posted by bkcunningham1

I realize there are issues and problems with the government's involvement in the agriculture business. But I think part of the problem I have with the discussion is just that I personally know farmers. Real life farmers who raise breeder cattle, farmers who raise sheep, farmers who raise hogs, farmers who have been dairy farmers for generations-all friends of mine.

People I know who've I've broken bread with and prayed with and watched their children grow up and get married. I've been on their farms and watched them nurse lame animals, watched their children win awards with their livestock at 4-H shows and county fairs. These are people who stay up all night when their sheep are lambing, who walk through knee deep snow in the middle of the night for days on end to get the new born lambs.

You can't attack farmers without recognizing the good people out there who fed the people in this country. And trust me, there are many many many of these people.

You know what I have always admired abouit my farmer friends, besides that most of their wives are school teachers so they can have the summer off to help on the farm and they are some of the hardest working people you will ever meet? They really have more faith than any people I've ever known. Faith that their crops will come in. Faith that their animals with not take ill and will produce. Faith that the market won't fall and they have enough to get through another season.

I've read all of your information and I thank you for it all. It's a lot to digest, no pun intended. I hope you read mine and consider my words as well.


BTW, family farms account for 98 percent of farms are family farms, and they account for 82 percent of farm production in the US.

http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/eib67/

One more:

http://www.epa.gov/agriculture/ag101/demographics.html

Thanks for the levity BK. It was getting knee deep in chicken s##t around here.

[K9-Lovers]

Originally Posted by Ajack

Thanks for the levity BK. It was getting knee deep in chicken s##t around here.

[iandwk]

No one is saying the livestock industry as a whole is perfect. It is driven by profit, operated by humans who don't make a lot of money in their jobs, and can be a shock to those not involved in the industry. A lot of these films you see are of farms or processing plants who are sorry at their jobs. They try to make you think all are like that, while that simply is not true. I had a neighbor with poultry houses who was drunk half the time and only went into his houses every other day, allowing the mortality to just rot on the floor. Needless to say, the Tyson people eventually took away his contract. That's the exception, though, and that is the kind of farms these films find so as to inflame the public. Can you find any films of clean, healthy operations? Do you really believe they don't exist? Get with the county extension agent in your county and go visit farms with him. I think you would come away feeling a lot different about farms.

PETA is not what they always claim to be, either. Check out these links.
http://www.petakillsanimals.com/petaTrial2.cfm
http://www.consumerfreedom.com/news_...d-its-a-felony
http://www.thisistrue.com/peta.html
http://www.consumerfreedom.com/press...g-dumping-dogs

Do I think all of PETA is like this? No, but for some reason people see videos of bad farms or processing plants and think they are all like that.

As to the profit driven aspect, the integrators are the ones making the money. My wife taught school while I ran the farm. Our utility bills and bank payments amounted to about $10000 per month. We averaged around $24,000 per flock and raised an average of 7 flocks per year. I was on the farm 24/7 while chickens were in the houses and had usually 10-14 days between flocks to clean out and get ready for the next batch. If you do the math you will see it wasn't a highly profitable business for the investment in time and money for us. We were paid 4.25 cents per pound of live weight and that would vary depending on how much feed per pound went into each chicken. The less feed used, the more we made. They started paying this in or around 1994. We sold our farm in 2002. I spoke to the man who bought it earlier this year and they are still paying the grower the same amount, although poultry prices have almost doubled on the retail market since 1994.

It's easy to see from top to bottom that all the money is at the top. Don Tyson and Bill Clinton are good friends and he was able to get a lot of favorable bills passed through his lobbying efforts. One example is that the poultry growers were not allowed to form any kind of union in order to try to get higher prices per pound on what they grow. They successfully lumped it in with the Sherman Antitrust Act and we could have been arrested for price-fixing. I personally think the farmers are treated much worse than the livestock they raise.

Does the industry need fixing? I'd say changes can be made for the better, but if it is ever done to the satisfaction of the few who are so vocal about it be prepared to pay exorbitant prices for all food, because the livestock market is tied into the rest of the food chain in this country.

Maybe then I can successfully lose weight and keep it off.

[K9-Lovers]

iandwk, Excellent post. Thank you.

However, no matter how well the chicken Factory Farm Facility is run, the facts remain:

overcrowded, causing disease, fighting, cannibalism
treated with antibiotics and hormones, therefore in our meat
no sunlight, artificial "fresh air"
live in their own waste
many cannot support their excess weight and cannot move
grow so fast that their lungs and heart do not keep up
this is not the environment God intended for these creatures
treated viciously by collectors, often breaking legs & wings
this produces meat that is not high quality

the food industry workers are exploited

and finally, VAST IMPROVEMENT IS NEEDED

[bkcunningham1]

Originally Posted by iandwk

No one is saying the livestock industry as a whole is perfect. It is driven by profit, operated by humans who don't make a lot of money in their jobs, and can be a shock to those not involved in the industry. A lot of these films you see are of farms or processing plants who are sorry at their jobs. They try to make you think all are like that, while that simply is not true. I had a neighbor with poultry houses who was drunk half the time and only went into his houses every other day, allowing the mortality to just rot on the floor. Needless to say, the Tyson people eventually took away his contract. That's the exception, though, and that is the kind of farms these films find so as to inflame the public. Can you find any films of clean, healthy operations? Do you really believe they don't exist? Get with the county extension agent in your county and go visit farms with him. I think you would come away feeling a lot different about farms.

PETA is not what they always claim to be, either. Check out these links.
http://www.petakillsanimals.com/petaTrial2.cfm
http://www.consumerfreedom.com/news_...d-its-a-felony
http://www.thisistrue.com/peta.html
http://www.consumerfreedom.com/press...g-dumping-dogs

Do I think all of PETA is like this? No, but for some reason people see videos of bad farms or processing plants and think they are all like that.

As to the profit driven aspect, the integrators are the ones making the money. My wife taught school while I ran the farm. Our utility bills and bank payments amounted to about $10000 per month. We averaged around $24,000 per flock and raised an average of 7 flocks per year. I was on the farm 24/7 while chickens were in the houses and had usually 10-14 days between flocks to clean out and get ready for the next batch. If you do the math you will see it wasn't a highly profitable business for the investment in time and money for us. We were paid 4.25 cents per pound of live weight and that would vary depending on how much feed per pound went into each chicken. The less feed used, the more we made. They started paying this in or around 1994. We sold our farm in 2002. I spoke to the man who bought it earlier this year and they are still paying the grower the same amount, although poultry prices have almost doubled on the retail market since 1994.

It's easy to see from top to bottom that all the money is at the top. Don Tyson and Bill Clinton are good friends and he was able to get a lot of favorable bills passed through his lobbying efforts. One example is that the poultry growers were not allowed to form any kind of union in order to try to get higher prices per pound on what they grow. They successfully lumped it in with the Sherman Antitrust Act and we could have been arrested for price-fixing. I personally think the farmers are treated much worse than the livestock they raise.

Does the industry need fixing? I'd say changes can be made for the better, but if it is ever done to the satisfaction of the few who are so vocal about it be prepared to pay exorbitant prices for all food, because the livestock market is tied into the rest of the food chain in this country.

Maybe then I can successfully lose weight and keep it off.

Wow. Your post and links gives me alot to research and look into.

[graciegirl]

..

[Barefoot]

Good for you K-9. It is clear that you are a dedicated advocate for humane treatment of all animals.

[iandwk]

Originally Posted by K9-Lovers

iandwk, Excellent post. Thank you.

However, no matter how well the chicken Factory Farm Facility is run, the facts remain:

overcrowded, causing disease, fighting, cannibalism
treated with antibiotics and hormones, therefore in our meat
no sunlight, artificial "fresh air"
live in their own waste
many cannot support their excess weight and cannot move
grow so fast that their lungs and heart do not keep up
this is not the environment God intended for these creatures
treated viciously by collectors, often breaking legs & wings
this produces meat that is not high quality

the food industry workers are exploited

and finally, VAST IMPROVEMENT IS NEEDED

I will answer these as honestly as I can.
They aren't overcrowded. I guess if you put humans in a comparably small area, we would feel that way, but the chickens grow and thrive and are therefore not stressed about it. I say not stressed because a stressed animal of any kind does not stay healthy and will not grow to its fullest capacity, but would be stunted and useless. You have to remember to include all factors when making a decision. By human standards, stressful, yes. But animals are not human. If we expected them to feel what we feel, how unrealistic would that be? Everything is done to produce the largest bird possible with the least amount of feed. Stress would hinder that goal.

What diseases do they cause by being raised in a poultry house? Again, that would be counterproductive to profit, which drives this industry. Are there diseases out there that could decimate a flock? Yes, of course. That is why the grower does his best to keep them healthy and give them every opportunity to fight off a disease if it gets introduced somehow

Fighting? When I raised roosters, they would square off occasionally, but having not yet developed spurs never did any damage to one another. If you want to see roosters fight, put 2 of them around any bunch of hens anywhere.

Cannibalism. Yes, they are cannibalistic. If you leave behind a carcass on your daily rounds, they will peck at it, but I have never seen one completely devoured, even in a house of 30,000 fully grown chickens. If the grower does his job, that won't happen. There is a disease that hit some houses that I knew of back in the early 90's called dermatitis. When one died, the others would reportedly devour it, but that is the exception, not the rule.

Antibiotics and hormones. I honestly don't know for sure what the integrators put in their feed. Each one mixes their own. I always heard their was growth hormone, but I have no concrete knowledge of this. I wouldn't be shocked if it were true. I do know that I grew a 3.5 pound live weight chicken in 37 days. After processing the chicken would likely weigh about 2-2.5 pounds, not much bigger than a Cornish hen. That was the market I grew for. Ryan's restaurant chain wanted a half breast weighing about 4 ounces, and that's what I grew. Cornish hens, btw, are the same breeds as what we all grew. The law requires that they have a strain from the Cornish gene, which all have nowadays. Just another way to get you to pay a lot of money for not much product.

No sunlight. Tyson uses black curtains and no sunlight is allowed in. The integrator I grew for before Tyson (Cargill) had clear curtains and we always had sunlight. What is the difference between incandescent light and sunlight to a chicken? I don't know. Maybe you can educate me on that one.

Fresh air. I don't know how you would get artificial fresh air. The fronts of the houses have cooling pads that outside air is drawn through and exhausted out the rear. Each of my houses had 9 1hp fans to do the job. It was like standing in a wind tunnel. The air came from outside, so I always assumed it to be fresh air. I don't even understand the term "artificial" fresh air.

They do live in their own waste. They also eat it if they don't have enough food. A healthy chicken deposits a pile of almost dry fecal matter mixed with the familiar white streak, which is its urea. A modern poultry house has so much air flow that it dries the feces out very quickly and it becomes powder. Is it slimy and gooey? No, it dries quickly and becomes powdery. Caking can become a problem in the winter when you try to regulate the air flow so as not to break the farm budget with propane bills, but with experience a farmer learns how to avoid most of it. Some caking is inevitable. I always shoveled dry litter over it to keep the chickens away because it can breed bacteria.

They do pretty good supporting their weight. There are some that become lame in a leg due to lack of tendon growth. The lame ones are culled out. If you don't they get runted, yet still eat the same amount of feed. They would eventually die because they can't get to the feed or the water, which is raised to allow the chickens to get to them at a comfortable angle as they grow. The runts can't get to either, so they are culled. By culled, I mean killed, destroyed, slaughtered, murdered, or whatever tag you may want to put on it. It really isn't much different than putting a lame horse out of its misery. The death of choice for a chicken is a broken neck. As I said in an earlier post, the mortality is not as high as you would think. 1-2% is normal. I did occasionally go as high as 4% a time or two.

Heart attacks were the most common cause of mortality. I don't know for sure if they are caused by their growth or just normal numbers in that large a population. Maybe 300 maximum out of 30,000. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that it is because of their rapid growth. I have no concrete knowledge of that, only rumors I have heard.

As far as being treated viciously by the catchers, I refer to the statement that I have made in other posts. Why would an integrator allow them to damage their product and cut profit. It makes no sense. Watching them being caught may be considered vicious, I guess. When it was done by hand they would grab them by a leg and get 4 in each hand and put them in cages. Nowadays they use automation. They are picked up by machine and conveyed into cages. I'm sure there is some loss due to catching, but it isn't as great as what your post suggests. As a grower I never heard much about that aspect of the business. The loss, if any, was completely the integrator's. We were paid according to the weight of the chickens on the truck before they offloaded them, dead or alive. I believe government regulations require an injured chicken to be destroyed and not sold for consumption. I may be wrong about that. They may just be required to remove the injured portion and discard it. If you ever buy one that has a broken limb, you can tell if it was done before slaughter by the meat. If it is bloody, it was done prior to slaughter. If not, it was broken after death.

Did I feel exploited? Monetarily, yes, which was the reason we left the business. Do they exploit others? Monetarily, yes. Minimum wage is the norm for most of the processing plant workers. This is Tyson I am referring to. I have little direct knowledge of the other integrators. I have a friend in North Georgia who grows for Pilgrim's Pride. He is paid 1.5 cents more per pound than Tyson pays. I grew an average of 1,000,000 per year at 3.7 pounds. Multiply all of that times 1.5. I would be making 55,500 more per year and probably still be in the business.

Just one question. Do you consider what I did a factory farm? I owned it and operated it. I grew the chickens to the best of my ability with help from my county extension agent when needed and help from Tyson field reps, but the chickens were my responsibility. If they had all died due to my negligence, I would have still had to pay all my bills. Tyson owned and operated their breeder houses, which I would consider factory farms.

As I have said, I am not trying to defend anything. I am telling you the way it is. All this talk about roosters being useless and some of the other statements that have been made are not coming from facts, but from inflammatory filmmakers and columnists, and perhaps others with an agenda. As I said before, I grew roosters for 2 years. How could I have done that if they destroyed all of them? I know they were roosters because they had wattles and they grew much faster and larger than pullets. Tyson currently trucks their roosters to farms in Jacksonville, unless they have changed since I got out of the business. They are definitely edible, and if you buy lunchmeats or dine out and get chicken, or buy the huge leg quarters that occasionally go on sale at the grocers, then you have probably eaten roosters. You don't have to take my word for it. It's easily checked out, but don't check with PETA or filmmakers. Check at the source, and get with your county agent and go and see for yourself. If I am not mistaken there are poultry houses in Gainesville. I'd be glad to go with you if you want to arrange it.

[BBQMan]

'Factory farms' provide safe food at an affordable price. Chickens on a farm such as Landwk's are more disease free than those coming to us from 'natural' farmyards. Their diet and surroundings are carefully controlled to avoids conditions that lead to rotten meat being transmitted to the consumer.

As a whole, we no longer have any idea of what goes into what we have to do to put food on the table. We maintain an idylic view of actually working a farm that is far from reality. I suggest that you actually kill and clean a chicken yourself to understand what is involved. Start by wringing the chicken's neck and then go through the process of plucking and dressing the chicken. This link will provide an overview of what you need to do to have a chicken ready to eat.

http://everything2.com/title/How+to+...ress+a+chicken

You can look up the videos on youTube. You will come to realize that chickens raised and processed in this manner are significantly more likely to bring disease to your table than those coming from Landwk's farm. They will also cost significantly more.

If you can make it through to putting the chicken you raised, killed and cleaned on your table, then move on to the work of putting beef, pork and lamb there. It is hard work that involves getting not just your hands dirty.

Farming is technologically advanced, perhaps more than any other industry in the United State. One hundred years ago, more than 90% of the US population lived on the farm providing food for the remaining 10%. Today, less than one million people in the US live on farms. As farming technology and productivity improved, more people were able to move to the city. This movement enabled us to have such things as electricity, indoor plumbing, paved streets, modern medicine, airplanes, computers, etc. Without 'factory farms' making the people available to do other work, none of these things would have been possible.

We enjoy better, safer, fresher, less expensive food in a greater variety than ever before. Frankly, I do not wish to go back. I support modern farming

[iandwk]

Originally Posted by BBQMan

'Factory farms' provide safe food at an affordable price. Chickens on a farm such as Landwk's are more disease free than those coming to us from 'natural' farmyards. Their diet and surroundings are carefully controlled to avoids conditions that lead to rotten meat being transmitted to the consumer.

As a whole, we no longer have any idea of what goes into what we have to do to put food on the table. We maintain an idylic view of actually working a farm that is far from reality. I suggest that you actually kill and clean a chicken yourself to understand what is involved. Start by wringing the chicken's neck and then go through the process of plucking and dressing the chicken. This link will provide an overview of what you need to do to have a chicken ready to eat.

http://everything2.com/title/How+to+...ress+a+chicken

You can look up the videos on youTube. You will come to realize that chickens raised and processed in this manner are significantly more likely to bring disease to your table than those coming from Landwk's farm. They will also cost significantly more.

If you can make it through to putting the chicken you raised, killed and cleaned on your table, then move on to the work of putting beef, pork and lamb there. It is hard work that involves getting not just your hands dirty.

Farming is technologically advanced, perhaps more than any other industry in the United State. One hundred years ago, more than 90% of the US population lived on the farm providing food for the remaining 10%. Today, less than one million people in the US live on farms. As farming technology and productivity improved, more people were able to move to the city. This movement enabled us to have such things as electricity, indoor plumbing, paved streets, modern medicine, airplanes, computers, etc. Without 'factory farms' making the people available to do other work, none of these things would have been possible.

We enjoy better, safer, fresher, less expensive food in a greater variety than ever before. Frankly, I do not wish to go back. I support modern farming

Thank you for saying all of that. Glad to know I am not alone.

[Ajack]

Originally Posted by BBQMan

'Factory farms' provide safe food at an affordable price. Chickens on a farm such as Landwk's are more disease free than those coming to us from 'natural' farmyards. Their diet and surroundings are carefully controlled to avoids conditions that lead to rotten meat being transmitted to the consumer.

As a whole, we no longer have any idea of what goes into what we have to do to put food on the table. We maintain an idylic view of actually working a farm that is far from reality. I suggest that you actually kill and clean a chicken yourself to understand what is involved. Start by wringing the chicken's neck and then go through the process of plucking and dressing the chicken. This link will provide an overview of what you need to do to have a chicken ready to eat.

http://everything2.com/title/How+to+...ress+a+chicken

You can look up the videos on youTube. You will come to realize that chickens raised and processed in this manner are significantly more likely to bring disease to your table than those coming from Landwk's farm. They will also cost significantly more.

If you can make it through to putting the chicken you raised, killed and cleaned on your table, then move on to the work of putting beef, pork and lamb there. It is hard work that involves getting not just your hands dirty.

Farming is technologically advanced, perhaps more than any other industry in the United State. One hundred years ago, more than 90% of the US population lived on the farm providing food for the remaining 10%. Today, less than one million people in the US live on farms. As farming technology and productivity improved, more people were able to move to the city. This movement enabled us to have such things as electricity, indoor plumbing, paved streets, modern medicine, airplanes, computers, etc. Without 'factory farms' making the people available to do other work, none of these things would have been possible.

We enjoy better, safer, fresher, less expensive food in a greater variety than ever before. Frankly, I do not wish to go back. I support modern farming

Finally, another voice of reason.