[MX rider]

My SIL and her husband live in Del Webb Stone Creek in Ocala. We went there to visit and were surprised at the lack of activity on a beautiful day. Hardly anyone outdoors.

One thing we found out when we looked at other +55 communities was how expensive golf is. Usually 1 or 2 courses and membership was very expensive.

Many HOA fees were way north of $500 and golf not included.

[RL Lemke]

Originally Posted by Goldwingnut

Bottom line is, until you pony up and put your money at risk like they have, you don’t get a say in what the future holds and what they build, and they get to make all the decisions.

When I was working, I developed Special Districts, which The Villages is one of the only two in Florida. My experience with this form of development yields a great deal of comfort with how the family has continued with the program initiated some 30 years ago with Spanish Springs.

I also take comfort seeing that the next generation of the family is stepping up to continue the family business.

As Don says, it is a risk. 30+ years of inertia indicates the risk is small. I take a great deal of comfort in relying on a family development program, as opposed to my decades of experience in dealing with government.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Interesting (not really) that a few people criticize me for asking the question, and the person I asked the question to instead answered one of the people criticizing me - and no one has answered the question.

It's not fearmongering. It's not doomsaying. It's a direct, clearly worded, well-detailed question. If you aren't capable of answering it, that's fine. But it's a question I had before I moved in that no one would answer, and it's a question I've seen here on ToTV by other people, though worded differently.

So far, my only take-away from the non-answers I've seen is:

"Nope, nothing in writing. But we all trust the Morse Family to never stop, and their descendants who inherit this place will love doing it and keep doing it, or will sell to buyers who have the same vested interest in keeping the theme of this community intact. We believe, because of some faith in some unspoken, unwritten thing, that any new buyers will NOT turn the squares into strip malls or apartment buildings or parking lots for office parks, and leave the residents to their own devices."

That's my take-away. That you believe what you believe, because you believe it. Not because anyone has given you any assurances that it'll be any different.

That's okay, you're allowed to have your beliefs. But it does answer the question with a "nope - nothing in writing, no guarantees."

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by RL Lemke

When I was working, I developed Special Districts, which The Villages is one of the only two in Florida. .

There are over 400 CDD's in Florida.

There are nearly 2000 Special Districts in Florida.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

Interesting (not really) that a few people criticize me for asking the question, and the person I asked the question to instead answered one of the people criticizing me - and no one has answered the question.

It's not fearmongering. It's not doomsaying. It's a direct, clearly worded, well-detailed question. If you aren't capable of answering it, that's fine. But it's a question I had before I moved in that no one would answer, and it's a question I've seen here on ToTV by other people, though worded differently.

So far, my only take-away from the non-answers I've seen is:

"Nope, nothing in writing. But we all trust the Morse Family to never stop, and their descendants who inherit this place will love doing it and keep doing it, or will sell to buyers who have the same vested interest in keeping the theme of this community intact. We believe, because of some faith in some unspoken, unwritten thing, that any new buyers will NOT turn the squares into strip malls or apartment buildings or parking lots for office parks, and leave the residents to their own devices."

That's my take-away. That you believe what you believe, because you believe it. Not because anyone has given you any assurances that it'll be any different.

That's okay, you're allowed to have your beliefs. But it does answer the question with a "nope - nothing in writing, no guarantees."

No, there is nothing in writing to prevent the Developer from walking away, allowing the leases to end, and letting all the properties go to seed. They can do whatever they want with their properties and if they want to lose millions in leases each year they could do it.

That is not something that is going to keep me up at night.

As far as the Developer deciding to sell and a new owner choosing to close the squares in favor of mini strip malls….I won’t live to see it so again, not something that will keep me up at night.

[RL Lemke]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

There are over 400 CDD's in Florida.

There are nearly 2000 Special Districts in Florida.

Indeed you are right in that Florida does have numerous Special Districts of various types and for various purposes.

What I had read was that Reedy Creek (WDW) and The Villages were the two with over 2,500 acres. But reading more now, I see that Florida is embracing this form of development, which has been successfully employed in many other states as a means to develop infrastructure without imposing a financial burden on people outside the district boundaries.

The situation with The Villages has become a hybrid, in that cities have incorporated so much of the new development. Though the developer continues to use bond sales to finance infrastructure, the cities layer their services and taxes.

It is this layering of taxation which caused me to complete a property tax analysis for the three counties, and various cities. My conclusion is that property tax rates range from 0.88% of FMV in unincorporated Sumter County to 1.34% of FVM for unincorporated Marion County. Add to that the assessment for each city.


I find that property taxes are more consequential than the Amenity Fee.

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by RL Lemke

Indeed you are right in that Florida does have numerous Special Districts of various types and for various purposes.

What I had read was that Reedy Creek (WDW) and The Villages were the two with over 2,500 acres. But reading more now, I see that Florida is embracing this form of development, which has been successfully employed in many other states as a means to develop infrastructure without imposing a financial burden on people outside the district boundaries.
...

I find that property taxes are more consequential than the Amenity Fee.

I think maybe you're confusing the purpose of CDD's. Some other states have similar entities, primarily California & Texas, I believe.

The purpose generally isn't to "protect" anyone from the burden of infra-structure, it's used to develop areas that generally wouldn't be developed, if private developers had to invest (or borrow) and use their own funds to construct the specific infrastructure for the proposed development. They facilitate large scale development, that otherwise wouldn't take place (at least that's how it works in Florida and what the enabling legislation stated as its goal).

Local taxes have nothing to do with TV's infra-structure nor the CDD's nor Amenity fees. IMO, the overlay of the city on top of the CDD, is a boondoggle for the city & county. They get the tax revenue, with minimal exposure.

The Bond Payment on lots in The Villages, along with the associated "Maintenance Fees", are infrastructure related.

Amenity Fees are .... Amenity related.

[RL Lemke]

Appears we are talking around each other. Probably would find a lot of common understanding if we met to discuss. I have been a board member for a multi billion dollar special district for decades, vacating my position for the relocation. I’ve also developed thousands of lots in special districts. Declarant for many planned communities and district development. While the terms may vary between states, the concepts remain the same.

It is this experience which provides me comfort with how the developers for The Villages are proceeding, how the sub-districts, the CCDs, function and how the various costs will affect my budget.

The coming $199 per household amenity fee is a real value, compared to every one of the other 55+ communities we looked closely at out west.

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by RL Lemke

The coming $199 per household amenity fee is a real value, compared to every one of the other 55+ communities we looked closely at out west.

The "coming $199 per household amenity fee"? That bus left the station a long time ago. I think mine is $215 or $220.

It is a great deal, but if I understand what Don Wiley said, Amenity Fees have been artificially "capped" (deferred) for years. I've also attended a few Advisory Committee meetings & District Budget meetings and I suspect that huge monthly increases are right around the corner.

If you were in the business, you must know a little about how these things work. Take a look at the District Budget some day and attend a couple of their Budget Meetings. I guaranty you, you'll walk away shaking your head and wondering what planet you landed on.

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by RL Lemke

Probably would find a lot of common understanding if we met to discuss. .

I've owned 10-15 motorcycles (only 1 BMW) & taught an MSF course for a short while .. does that count?

[Papa_lecki]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

They own the bank. They own the squares. They own the properties upon which the businesses around the squares exist. They own the new developments, UNTIL such time as they hand them off to the CDDs, which doesn't happen until they're finished with that area's buildout. They own the real estate agency that has exclusive rights to represent all new construction. They own the mortgage company. They own the Sharon Morse center. They own properties outside The Villages (the Publix/Winn-Dixie strip mall next to Spanish Springs). They own the properties upon which many medical centers are located, and the buildings the people running those centers pay rent on.

At some point - maybe not in our lifetimes, but at some point - there will be an "end of the line" of the family, and that end of the line will say "nope, not interested." Given that they own SO MUCH of all this - what will happen to it all when they finally walk away? They can. There's nothing stopping them from simply rejecting any lease renewals on properties they rent out, and letting those leases expire, and shutting down all the buildings, disconnecting services, and walking away.

They could sell it all, one piece at a time, to whoever they feel like selling it to, liquidate the whole shebang. And there is nothing we can do about it because - they own it all. No more medical centers, no more live music on the squares, no more businesses IN the squares, no more performances at the Sharon Morse Center, and heck - they could probably even shut down the Charter schools.

What guarantees - in writing - do we residents of The Villages have, that this won't happen? What measures have the CDDs and other government structures taken to ensure the continued running of the community in perpetuity?

While the developer’s family are Billionaires, that fortune is locked up in the real estate and the cash flow it generates. As wealthy families move along in time, that fortune is shared with more people (Schwartz to Morse - now to three sibling then to how many Morse grandchildren).

At some point, they will liquidate the Villages, probably in 2 or 3 generations. At that time, there probably won’t be much undeveloped land left - and they will be selling the commercial real estates and the other assets.
Nothing we need to worry about - probably our kids dont even need to worry about it.

[Goldwingnut]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

The "coming $199 per household amenity fee"? That bus left the station a long time ago. I think mine is $215 or $220.

It is a great deal, but if I understand what Don Wiley said, Amenity Fees have been artificially "capped" (deferred) for years. I've also attended a few Advisory Committee meetings & District Budget meetings and I suspect that huge monthly increases are right around the corner.

If you were in the business, you must know a little about how these things work. Take a look at the District Budget some day and attend a couple of their Budget Meetings. I guaranty you, you'll walk away shaking your head and wondering what planet you landed on.

Might want to double check your monthly amenity fee in your water will, I don't think $215-220 is mathematically possible, yet. Above $200, is possible, but few are there, yet.

My first few budget meeting years ago when I first started on CDD10's board defiantly had me shaking my head. Some studying and working through the process brought enlightenment and understanding. The complexities exist because of the laws put in place to keep local governments from running amuck. In retrospect the CDD budgets are a walk in the park compared to the county budget. I first started looking at the county budgets about 7 years ago, long before I ever considered running for the BOCC, it is a quagmire of accounts and funds that first appear to be a shell game trying to hide money. In reality it's just the opposite, it's about accountability, transparency, and traceability and once you understand it you can trace every penny from source to expenditure. Granted, tracing it might even challenge Rube Goldberg, but it can be done.

While the potential exists to reinstate some or even all of the deferred CPI adjustments, that potential continues to decrease as new properties are sold and properties that received the deferral are resold and their Amenity Fee is adjusted to the current Prevailing rate. As the percentage of properties that have existing deferrals in effect decreases and resultant revenue increases diminishes, the potential fallout from such an increase probably doesn't justify the diminishing gains.

I do disagree with you on the potential of a "huge monthly increases" coming, there is no mechanism or legal avenue to enable these increases in the governing documents (deed restrictions). The deed restrictions only give 3 methods of increasing the Amenity Fee - the creep, the reset, and the gimme.
The Creep is simply the annual CPI adjustment that allow the Amenity Fee to creep up slowly.
The Reset is when an existing property is sold the amenity fee is reset to the current Prevailing Rate - this one saves us (the budget) from the pitfall of the Creep as the CPI never keeps up with the real cost increases, but the Prevailing Rate, as I've stated previously, comes from a balance sheet that looks at the real costs to operate the amenities.
The Gimme is one that to my knowledge has never been used, it allow for an adjustment of the Amenity Fee if a majority of the residents approve of adding a new amenity, then the Amenity Fee can be raised an amount to cover the additional operating and R&R expenses. The residents demand "Gimme a covered pool in every neighborhood" then the response is "Gimme another $5/month to cover the costs". Given the way some people squeal about a nickel increase in the cost of anything, a Gimme will never happen.

[Goldwingnut]

This has been an engaging discussion with a lot of good questions. Some of the questions/statements a so full of conjecture, hyperbole, and "what ifs" about the sky falling that they are simply better ignored.

Between this thread and the host of comments made on a pseudo-news website recently, tonight story about CDD8 was a real hoot, I'm going to talk about this topic on my Sunday afternoon broadcast this week.

Fair warning, if you are of the mindset that a cap is need, rising amenity fees are going to cause me to move, or the developer is getting rich by raising my rate, I suggest you take an extra dose of your blood pressure medicine Sunday morning because I'm going to really set you off. Unlike when I was a CDD supervisor and county business now, I have no restrictions on this topic and I will speak my mind and let you know the truth, no matter how painful it may be.

Until Sunday, I need to refocus on getting #152 finish before the broadcast.

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by Goldwingnut

Might want to double check your monthly amenity fee in your water will, I don't think $215-220 is mathematically possible, yet. Above $200, is possible, but few are there, yet.

My first few budget meeting years ago when I first started on CDD10's board defiantly had me shaking my head. Some studying and working through the process brought enlightenment and understanding. The complexities exist because of the laws put in place to keep local governments from running amuck. In retrospect the CDD budgets are a walk in the park compared to the county budget. I first started looking at the county budgets about 7 years ago, long before I ever considered running for the BOCC, it is a quagmire of accounts and funds that first appear to be a shell game trying to hide money. In reality it's just the opposite, it's about accountability, transparency, and traceability and once you understand it you can trace every penny from source to expenditure. Granted, tracing it might even challenge Rube Goldberg, but it can be done.

While the potential exists to reinstate some or even all of the deferred CPI adjustments, that potential continues to decrease as new properties are sold and properties that received the deferral are resold and their Amenity Fee is adjusted to the current Prevailing rate. As the percentage of properties that have existing deferrals in effect decreases and resultant revenue increases diminishes, the potential fallout from such an increase probably doesn't justify the diminishing gains.

I do disagree with you on the potential of a "huge monthly increases" coming, there is no mechanism or legal avenue to enable these increases in the governing documents (deed restrictions). The deed restrictions only give 3 methods of increasing the Amenity Fee - the creep, the reset, and the gimme.
The Creep is simply the annual CPI adjustment that allow the Amenity Fee to creep up slowly.
The Reset is when an existing property is sold the amenity fee is reset to the current Prevailing Rate - this one saves us (the budget) from the pitfall of the Creep as the CPI never keeps up with the real cost increases, but the Prevailing Rate, as I've stated previously, comes from a balance sheet that looks at the real costs to operate the amenities.
The Gimme is one that to my knowledge has never been used, it allow for an adjustment of the Amenity Fee if a majority of the residents approve of adding a new amenity, then the Amenity Fee can be raised an amount to cover the additional operating and R&R expenses. The residents demand "Gimme a covered pool in every neighborhood" then the response is "Gimme another $5/month to cover the costs". Given the way some people squeal about a nickel increase in the cost of anything, a Gimme will never happen.

I tried to check my amenity fee this morning, but without a bill & my PIN, I was stymied. I know I pay +/- $305, when my Irrigation is shut off. I'm fairly certain it's over $200, but not $225. The truth is, the monthly Amenity Fee is a drop in the bucket and doesn't come close to my weekly golf budget, so I don't pay much attention to it.

I don't disagree the overall philosophy of the District, is transparency. They make a solid effort to provide all the information and detail anyone could possibly want. As you point out, it's a quagmire of information and very difficult and complicated to sort through.

The "Gimme" is the wild card in my opinion, but in a different way than you characterize it.

The "spending creep", driven by residents' (IMO) unrealistic expectations of existing services/amenities, produces a "hidden creep". Community Watch being a prime example. Residents expect more and more from Community Watch and spending creeps, without any legitimate way to fund their unrealistic expectations. Golf course maintenance is another one. While I disagree with the way the Executive Courses are maintained, I don't think anyone is stealing money. The District is spending what they say they're spending, but it's not enough to produce conditions acceptable to residents.

Because of the current funding/budget parameters in place to control "fees", the District is in a tenuous position. They need funding to meet Residents' expectations, but they're limited in their ability to raise fees. If you're forced (by artificial restraints) to fund an operating budget without the ability to generate sufficient revenue, you're left with in the unenviable position of needing to borrow (or Bond), to provide the needed financial resources to pay the bills. Which based on the limited budget meetings I've intended, I think is happening. (& if asked 6-8 months ago, I could give specific examples, but I no longer recall the specifics that set me off last year.)

So with respect to: "I do disagree with you on the potential of a "huge monthly increases" coming, there is no mechanism or legal avenue to enable these increases in the governing documents (deed restrictions)."

I respectfully disagree with your contention. The way you spend more money than you have, is you borrow it. Whether you "borrow it" from the Social Security System as the US Congress does, or borrow it in some other way, it's the only way to get it. The structure of the Amenity Fee "guarantees per the governing documents", leave no alternative.

Which means at some point, you have to "pay the piper", in the same way our children & grandchildren will eventually have to address the Federal Deficit (& in no way should that be interpreted as "political". I'm talking economics and certainly don't mean to invite political discourse).

JMO, YMMV.

[Goldwingnut]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

I tried to check my amenity fee this morning, but without a bill & my PIN, I was stymied. I know I pay +/- $305, when my Irrigation is shut off. I'm fairly certain it's over $200, but not $225. The truth is, the monthly Amenity Fee is a drop in the bucket and doesn't come close to my weekly golf budget, so I don't pay much attention to it.

I don't disagree the overall philosophy of the District, is transparency. They make a solid effort to provide all the information and detail anyone could possibly want. As you point out, it's a quagmire of information and very difficult and complicated to sort through.

The "Gimme" is the wild card in my opinion, but in a different way than you characterize it.

The "spending creep", driven by residents' (IMO) unrealistic expectations of existing services/amenities, produces a "hidden creep". Community Watch being a prime example. Residents expect more and more from Community Watch and spending creeps, without any legitimate way to fund their unrealistic expectations. Golf course maintenance is another one. While I disagree with the way the Executive Courses are maintained, I don't think anyone is stealing money. The District is spending what they say they're spending, but it's not enough to produce conditions acceptable to residents.

Because of the current funding/budget parameters in place to control "fees", the District is in a tenuous position. They need funding to meet Residents' expectations, but they're limited in their ability to raise fees. If you're forced (by artificial restraints) to fund an operating budget without the ability to generate sufficient revenue, you're left with in the unenviable position of needing to borrow (or Bond), to provide the needed financial resources to pay the bills. Which based on the limited budget meetings I've intended, I think is happening. (& if asked 6-8 months ago, I could give specific examples, but I no longer recall the specifics that set me off last year.)

So with respect to: "I do disagree with you on the potential of a "huge monthly increases" coming, there is no mechanism or legal avenue to enable these increases in the governing documents (deed restrictions)."

I respectfully disagree with your contention. The way you spend more money than you have, is you borrow it. Whether you "borrow it" from the Social Security System as the US Congress does, or borrow it in some other way, it's the only way to get it. The structure of the Amenity Fee "guarantees per the governing documents", leave no alternative.

Which means at some point, you have to "pay the piper", in the same way our children & grandchildren will eventually have to address the Federal Deficit (& in no way should that be interpreted as "political". I'm talking economics and certainly don't mean to invite political discourse).

JMO, YMMV.

Each of the CDDs and Amenity divisions has capital reserves and can and has used them to fund funding shortfall from unexpected things that have happened. None of the districts are using bonds as a stopgap funding method. The only bonds that have been issued by the CDDs are for expansion - north of 466 the one I know of are in CDD4 and CDD9 when areas were added to their CDD, each a relatively small number of homes.
Florida law requires each government enitiy to have a ballanced budget (unlike the reckless federal but let's not go there). Using a bond to fund day to day operations is not a balanced budget and doesn't meet the criteria.
The amenity division (SLAD in this case) issued a bond in 2016 for the amenites between 466 and 44, this purchase has a funding provided by the included amentiy fees that came with the purchase. They are going through the same process with the current amenity purchase, with the same funding method.
You are very correct in the expectations of residents for greater services, it is up to the boards to constrain these requests and spending, and they do. The demands can go up all they want, but without the money the answer is NO.

The CDDs and Amenity Divisions are not borrowing money to fund daily operation - not living our a credit card - again like the Federal government (went there again, sorry), so the situation of "paying the piper" is not developing. It results in a lot of belt tightening every year for operating costs - not to be confused with R&R requirements which are funded out of the R&R reserves that have been built up.