Interesting read. The more I read, the more I do not think this is a great idea. I believe it better serves its purpose the way it is. Unless you take it to the ground and start over. In my opinion it will not serve the purpose they are going for. I think they would be better to start from with a new building. Maybe Brownwood would work.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by nkrifats

Interesting read. The more I read, the more I do not think this is a great idea. I believe it better serves its purpose the way it is. Unless you take it to the ground and start over. In my opinion it will not serve the purpose they are going for. I think they would be better to start from with a new building. Maybe Brownwood would work.

We can talk about it until our lips fall off, but if the unseen powers have decided to make it a performance venue, than we will see it happen...but I am guessing that they will take it down and build it from the ground up.

The only thing that I can't figure out is where are those extra thousand people gonna park?

But I know someone smarter than me has that already figured out. This place is amazing. I will sit and watch.

[REDCART]

Originally Posted by Bogie Shooter

Is this the official position of PALMS??

There is no final or "official" decision yet on the developer's offer, and PALMS is considering Church on the Sq along with a short-list of nine alternate sites. For obvious reasons, they're not going to discuss any of the sites under consideration because that would only inflate the price of the property. I should have made note of the gentleman's name but he said that he's on the PALMS' site selection committee.

From the beginning it's been noted that the Savannah Center shoulders an unfair burden as a regional rec center, and was never intended for such high frequency use. Church on the Sq would restore Savannah to its original use as a "regional" rec center, and serve as a magnet for SS. My instincts are it may not be perfect solution as a performing arts center, but the price is unbeatable. The parking issue has to be adequately addressed. The property is there and only needs to be paved over. While there's plenty of property along 466\466A which might be available, it would not benefit either town square the way Church on the Sq would bring business to SS.

[NJblue]

My hope is that the PALMS group doesn't make things worse in an effort to make things better. I think that the Savannah Center is a great resource for the community in that it provides good entertainment at a very reasonable price - made possible by the low costs for the venue.

The PALMS group seems to think that there is a market for higher quality entertainment than what is presented at the Savannah Center. That may well be, but I'm concerned that this has become an either-or situation and that the net effect of this whole thing is that the Savannah center will no longer be available for low-cost entertainment and that the cost structure for any new venue will make it prohibitively expensive for low-cost groups to be brought in. That's bad enough, but if they misjudge the community's willingness to pay for the higher-priced acts and the new center folds up, then we will be left with nothing.

While the Church on the Square may not be a perfect solution to what PALMS is looking for, I hope they don't look the gift horse in the mouth thinking that their perfect solution will be economically viable. It seems that even if it is, we will lose the more affordale acts completely.

[ijusluvit]

Seems to me the Church on the Square has a lot of potential, especially with Mr. Morse's additional offer of free professional management. If I were in his shoes I think I would make the same offer, because it looks like more of a win/win than any other.

The town squares with their 'eternal entertainment' are a deliberate, costly endeavor designed to stimulate restaurant and other commercial activities. Spanish Springs is not thriving. A PAC could turn things around and succeed, because SS has two big things a PAC needs: 1) easy access to the outside community, 2) food, drink and more socializing only steps away. The more removed a PAC is from a town square type of atmosphere, the greater the chance it will be a white elephant. I'm surprised other posters haven't mentioned what seems to me to be a the most important consideration, and I sure hope PALMS has considered this in prioritizing their nine possible sites.

The three major criticisms of the Church as a PAC are size, seating configuration and parking. I think all three concerns can be resolved completely. Remodeling and modest expansion of the building can create an attractive, functional facility seating 1000+. I don't think that capacity is too small to attract popular entertainment. Multiple performances can accommodate the "hit" shows. Combine that with comfortable seating and the intimate atmosphere and the folks will come. Parking should be considered a huge issue at any site. The more congested the traffic and farther away people have to park, the less inclined they are to go out at all. Show people, especially retired folks, you can get them to the theatre door and back to their car easily and quickly and I think you've got the clincher for success. And there is only one practical answer to that: a charming trolley shuttle system using a priority lane from parking areas to the square whenever there is a PAC show. Who knows, except for the car shows, maybe the town squares would all draw more business if they were always closed to cars, and shuttles operated all the time. (think: Disney for Seniors).

Anyway, as I said above, let's keep thinking positively and working together.

[REDCART]

This email from PALMS would appear to be their formal response to the developer's donation of Church on the Square.

Dear Friend of Performing Arts:

For five years, a group of citizens has worked diligently to build a first-rate performing arts center here. We’d like to enjoy world-class talent such as Michael Buble, Norah Jones and Tony Bennett locally instead of traveling to Orlando, Tampa and Gainesville.

Now, that dream may be within our grasp if we can focus the goodwill and energies of various interested parties to create a performing arts center that has adequate size, facilities and convenient access.

As the first board president of the newly-renamed Performing Arts of Lake, Marion & Sumter, (PALMS) I am committed to achieving the goal for which so many volunteers have worked with such dedication.

I am applying my experience as a former manager for such firms as Procter & Gamble and as a longtime supporter of the arts. As president of the Columbus (MS) Arts Council for five years, I helped to create one of the best arts facilities in that region. The other board members, with a broad array of talents, are equally enthusiastic. More details will be announced in our upcoming newsletter.

As for the current issue regarding the developer’s proposal to create a theater for entertainment in The Villages, our response is: first, we applaud him for recognizing the residents’ overwhelming support for a new performing arts venue. This was the number one suggested improvement in the Villages’ own surveys in the past two years and drew 96 percent support from the PALMS online survey in July 2010.

Unfortunately, the plan to substantially rebuild the Church on the Square into a theater would create a facility that is uneconomical for attracting top entertainers, unappealing to performers and uncomfortable for the audience. The specific issues include:

· With only 1,050 seats, it is too small to present the top national acts. The first-rank centers in Florida range from 1,736 seats (Sarasota) to 1,750 (Gainesville) to 2,518 (Orlando) in order to get larger audiences and thus achieve reasonable prices. The plan has no “star” dressing rooms.
· The design has many deficiencies for performers: It only has limited chorus dressing rooms and storage space, and lacks other backstage facilities. In contrast, a true performing arts center has a “black box” theater for innovative works, rehearsal spaces, practice rooms, meeting facilities and adequate office space.
· There are many design shortcomings for the audience: The closest 172 seats to the stage are folding chairs. The remainder of the main floor has such a slight slope that many patrons would have obstructed views. One-third of the seats (336) are in the balcony, which is only accessed by one small elevator and stairs. This is not appropriate for mature audiences. There are too few restrooms to permit an intermission at shows.

However, there is a better way to establish a facility that would bring first-rank entertainers to the area of Lake, Marion and Sumter counties, stimulate economic growth, and make the region the envy of all other retirement areas in the nation.

We should build a new performing arts center in an appropriate area, with 1,500-2,000 seats, plus adequate access and parking. By showcasing big-name entertainers AND local amateur and professional talent, it would create a jewel for the regional performing arts community. Financed by grants, donations, ticket sales and concession fees, it would NOT involve any local taxes or amenity fees.

Now more than ever, we are committed to attaining our vision and mission.

With our experience and enthusiasm, PALMS is ready to work collaboratively with the developer and all interested parties to create a performing arts center that will be a joy to attend and a source of pride for us all.

Bob Rutkowski, President
Performing Arts of Lake, Marion & Sumter, Inc.(PALMS)

[Skip]

And we agree with PALMS. You can't make a church into a theater. A new theater in the round with sloping audience would be ideal. Plus the parking issue is a "show stopper".

Let's say Tony Bennett will play to a sold out crowd on a Friday night in March. That same night, Scooter The DJ is playing at the Gazebo. The Wellness Center is busy with exercisers. The Bowling Alley is going strong and the Marriott Town Suites is full. The Movie Theater just opened a blockbuster. The Hacienda Center has square dances going on there too. Tell me where you are going to park for the theater and how far you are willing to walk? Soon every business will want their own PRIVATE parking like the Bowling Alley does now. There isn't enough parking now when the church isn't being used now. Plus the noise from the Gazebo would be unbearable inside the church during Tony's performance. And where would you put the orchestra?

How about a show booked during the October Fest., Mardi Gras, St. Patrick's Day or the Cruise-In. Where in the world will you park?

And certainly we don't want Barbara Vesco and new husband running things. She is the person that books terrible acts into the Savannah Center and Katie Belle's. Don't you think that's a conflict of interest? We don't need the Villages Box Office taking their cut either and keeping the ticket prices out of reach.

We need a new Regional Performing Arts Center on US 27/441, CR 466, CR 25 - off the campus limits.

Bob Rutkowski knows what he's talking about.

[golf2140]

Ship, I agree with your post, but aren't these centers always in need of tax payer monies to stay afloat?

[Challenger]

I have a good deal of experience with a community theater in western Maryland. The venue seats about 1200 and is a classic 90 year old facility with the appropriate seating layout. One ongoing problem is that the really top traveling shows cost $30-50M per appearance . All in tickets need to be priced at $40 to $75 along with corporate sponsors to break even. The market is limited at this price.

If a PA center is developed I believe it needs to seat 1500 to 1800 or we need to resign ourselves to a smaller less sophisticated venue and the more modest bookings that can be afforded.

In any case a benefactor or some government will have to provide subsidies and a strong board will need to have annual fundraising efforts.

The letter from the PALMS group is consistent with my experience in Maryland.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by golf2140

Ship, I agree with your post, but aren't these centers always in need of tax payer monies to stay afloat?

Yup and so would the Church on the Square. It would lose it's tax exempt status too.

Skip

[NJblue]

They say they want to attract acts like Tony Bennett. I checked what his concerts cost. In San Antonio they go from $62 to $140 per ticket and it has a metropolitan area of over 2 million people to draw from. Do they really think that there are enough people in TV and the surrounding area that would be willing to pay that amount of money on a consistent basis, year around to support those kind of costs.

They talk about the sizes of auditoriums in Orlando. The metropolitan Orlando area has a population of over 2 million. The Sarasota area has almost 700,000 people. I think they need to look at the reality of the situation and try to work within that framework.

The reality is that we are a relatively small community. For a small community, I think we already have pretty good entertainment options. If they can be improved, great ... but, I'm very skeptical that they can be done in a manner where the costs can be kept within the scope of what our community can support. To increase the cost structure by building a large, new facility doubles my skepticism.

[Challenger]

Trojan Horse?

[njbchbum]

In one of my past lives as a developer of private and public partnerships and another as a grant writer, I feel that the church on the square could most benefit from a combination of those talents as opposed to something as grand as the PALMS committee. The mission would be to solicit something like a "summer stock"/community theatre troupe, lecture series presenters and emerging music atrists. It could also serve as an incubator for up and coming talent of local high schools. Such presentations attract the smaller audience that can be accommodated by limited seating/parking; smaller repertory companies are more likely to be able to adapt to limited dressing room space. Ticket pricing can usually be kept to lower costs for those types of events. The church on the square is an intimate venue that could thrive with the more intimate entertainment events. Perhaps the develper can assemble the staff/volunteers to seek out same and thus generate a revenue stream with minimal investment.

Just my two cents.

P.S.
re the cost of bigger name entertainers being brought to a villages PAC...have you ever seen the riders attatched to performer contracts...requirements such as lodging and meal requirements, on-stage towels/water/instruments/microphones/speaker systems! oy! more expenses that add to ticket prices!

[ijusluvit]

The posts by njblue and njbchbum are very realistic. As wonderful as it is to dream of hosting the most glamorous performers, the TV market is not big enough to support that facility 'identity' over the long term. PALMS needs to scale down their thinking to accept market reality.

I think it is unfortunate that the PALMS response to Mr. Morse's offer completely ignores the potential for remodeling and expanding the Church to convert it to a modern, functional PAC. It's really a formal rejection of an interesting possibility. I would not blame Mr. Morse for feeling insulted that his offer was dismissed so emphatically.

Finally, I wish someone would seriously explore the possibility of using a shuttle bus system for all PAC productions as well as for other town square activities. I can't understand how this would be anything but successful and cost effective. I would bet my socks that attendance at PAC productions would be appreciably better if patrons knew they would be dropped off from where they parked their car or cart at the door. How many TV folks either can't stand the traffic hassle or just don't want to walk a long distance. For the TV community, parking and traffic will be a problem for any PAC, no matter where it is located.

Please folks, please PALMS, lets think more creatively and positively!

[Pturner]

Originally Posted by ijusluvit

The posts by njblue and njbchbum are very realistic. As wonderful as it is to dream of hosting the most glamorous performers, the TV market is not big enough to support that facility 'identity' over the long term. PALMS needs to scale down their thinking to accept market reality.

I think so too. Tony Bennett and the like! That seems overly ambitious for our size town. Even in major cities, performing arts centers that attract that level of talent struggle to survive, and almost always end up subsidized with tax money. I love the idea of upgrading from Savannah! But let's be realistic. I don't mind driving to Orlando to see a Tony Bennett, Paul McCartney, et. al. Show me the numbers that say a town of 100,000 people can support that. Show me some examples.