[graciegirl]

///

[Indydealmaker]

Originally Posted by EdV

OK everyone. Now that Happy Hour is well underway, let’s just sit down and cool out and get our heads together.

Your mission tomorrow, should you decide to accept it is to have two of you go to the Sumter County office and the other to go to the Lake County office and demand to see the permit for the wall in question. I’ve given you the two addresses where the this wall is between. Let’s just establish which property owner put “The Wall” in.

And when they give you the information, make a copy of it and post it here. First steps first, are you with me gang?

It is likely that the original permit for the existing wall included a continuous wall across the recently blocked space.

[NoMoSno]

Originally Posted by JeffAVEWS

I was at the Lady Lake Building Commission office at 9:15, The Building Commissioner had already been to the site. There is a problem as to exactly where the wall is built, it could be right on the county line. He told me there was no permit issued by his office and he is going to contact his counterpart in Sumter County. They are not happy about this.

Looks like the building commissioner was at the site and not happy...

[Tom Grooms]

Originally Posted by ttown

Sorry. I live near the wall. The graffiti got attention. The path through the grass is simply people trying to get to places that were shut off.
We were treated with no respect and are reacting in kind.
A discussion in the first p,ace would have brought a totally different result.

Are you seriously trying to rationalize that behavior? You people are upset, I get it. But you don't own this place, It's OUR place and you are trashing it like a grade school punk. Reminds me of the thugs that burnt down LA after the Rodney King verdict.

STAY OFF OUR GRASS AND PAINT YOUR OWN HOUSE IF YOU FEEL THE NEED.

And to bring that negative attention to the media? Great, just what I want to find in a "The Villages" Google search. Residents that don't care about the property. Nice work guys and gals. You're doing us all a disservice acting like animals...

[njbchbum]

Originally Posted by Indydealmaker

It is likely that the original permit for the existing wall included a continuous wall across the recently blocked space.

that doesn't sound like a fact to me. and in my new jersey town, permits have a start and end date. i know florida could be different - but 20 years to construct?

and why if there was originally a gate at the location with a paved divided path - which ed indicated was made to be taken down by lady lake - wold there have been a wall in the original plans?

i have trouble following the logic of the wall being in the original permit.

[njbchbum]

Originally Posted by Tom Grooms

Are you seriously trying to rationalize that behavior? You people are upset, I get it. But you don't own this place, It's OUR place and you are trashing it like a grade school punk. Reminds me of the thugs that burnt down LA after the Rodney King verdict.

STAY OFF OUR GRASS AND PAINT YOUR OWN HOUSE IF YOU FEEL THE NEED.

And to bring that negative attention to the media? Great, just what I want to find in a "The Villages" Google search. Residents that don't care about the property. Nice work guys and gals. You're doing us all a disservice acting like animals...

hey, tom, where do you come off stating that a villager did it? it is on BOTH sides! how many villagers do you know can scale the wall to grafitti up both sides? maybe done by someone else who can no longer access the villages?

[OldManTime]

Originally Posted by njbchbum

that doesn't sound like a fact to me. and in my new jersey town, permits have a start and end date. i know florida could be different - but 20 years to construct?

and why if there was originally a gate at the location with a paved divided path - which ed indicated was made to be taken down by lady lake - wold there have been a wall in the original plans?

i have trouble following the logic of the wall being in the original permit.

The original wall opening was built by the developer (Harold Schwartz) and was permitted, way back some years ago. Most likely through Lake County. The closure of the wall on saturday morning was done without a permit from the Town of Lady Lake.

But let us all get focused here, this wall keeps many super seniors who do not have cars, low income, and need to access the medical establishments, and also so many jobs can be lost at Walmart, Lowe's and Aldi, where employees do not have cars, just golf carts, and that is why they live in the Villages.

[bkcunningham1]

This is a very important topic. I do not want the thread to be closed and locked. Please, let's be respectful of each other and provide informative posts. Whether expressing an opinion, asking a question or providing facts, please remember it is other humans reading you words

We don't know who vandalized the wall. It was very sad to see such disrespect for everyone involved. I don't want to see us disrespecting each other here either. We do not have to agree but a little respect for each other goes along way. Thanks everyone. I know it is easy to get emotional here when we are only reading each others' words. Just remember there are people attached to the computers, phones Nooks and other devices we are typing on. Peace.

[Tom Grooms]

Maybe, maybe is was Michael Jordan, or Donald Trump or maybe it was Mr Morse himself. Who knows? Who cares? When you watch that news clip you can only believe is could be one of the protesting sign holders.

I can only wish I could catch someone doing something like this...

If you must get over to Walmart/Aldi's/Lowes/your doctor/whatever, call public transit, take a cab, walk, ride a bike, rollerblade, buy a car, I don't care pogo stick your way to the store but PLEASE STAY OFF OUR GRASS.

[Indydealmaker]

Originally Posted by njbchbum

that doesn't sound like a fact to me. and in my new jersey town, permits have a start and end date. i know florida could be different - but 20 years to construct?

and why if there was originally a gate at the location with a paved divided path - which ed indicated was made to be taken down by lady lake - wold there have been a wall in the original plans?

i have trouble following the logic of the wall being in the original permit.

Consider that if that path was an official multimodal path, it would have been paved. A dirt path sure sounds temporary to me regardless of how long it had been that way. Obviously, cost would not have been a factor.

As far as the original permit goes, I did not state anything as a fact. However, I do know that if I get a permit to build a fence and choose to leave an opening or a gate, that in most jurisdictions, I do not need a new permit to close that gap. On two occasions I have obtained a permit to build a deck, then at some point decided to virtually rebuild that deck, I did not need a new permit as long as the original footings and posts were maintained. It is possible that that methodology may apply in this instance. However, that is pure speculation which has no value other than to fill space on the forum, just like almost all of the other posts herein.

So, since I have committed the sin of rabid speculation, I am now going to put myself in "time out".

[chuckinca]

It is paved - look at the pics.

.

[njbchbum]

Originally Posted by Indydealmaker

Consider that if that path was an official multimodal path, it would have been paved. A dirt path sure sounds temporary to me regardless of how long it had been that way. Obviously, cost would not have been a factor.

As far as the original permit goes, I did not state anything as a fact. However, I do know that if I get a permit to build a fence and choose to leave an opening or a gate, that in most jurisdictions, I do not need a new permit to close that gap. On two occasions I have obtained a permit to build a deck, then at some point decided to virtually rebuild that deck, I did not need a new permit as long as the original footings and posts were maintained. It is possible that that methodology may apply in this instance. However, that is pure speculation which has no value other than to fill space on the forum, just like almost all of the other posts herein.

So, since I have committed the sin of rabid speculation, I am now going to put myself in "time out".

i my town if i have a permit for a fence - the entire fence goes up - no openings; and if i hafta reconstruct an existing deck - i hafta get a new permit...and pay for it, too. enjoy the time out!

[JeffAVEWS]

I'll post this again, I still think there is easement there! This should by fodder for the POA's lawyers.
Quoted from Wikipedia:

Easement by estoppel

When a property owner misrepresents the existence of an easement while selling a property and does not include an express easement in the deed to the buyer, the court may step in and create an easement. Easements by estoppel generally look to any promises not made in writing, any money spent by the benefiting party in reliance on the representations of the burdened party. If the court finds that the buyer acted in good faith and relied on the seller's promises, the court will create an easement by estoppel.

For example: Ray sells land to Joe on the promise that Joe can use Ray's driveway and bridge to the main road at anytime, but Ray does not include the easement in the deed to the land. Joe, deciding that the land is now worth the price, builds a house and connects a garage to Ray's driveway. If Ray (or his successors) later decides to gate off the driveway and prevents Joe (or Joe's successors) from accessing the driveway, a court would likely find an easement by estoppel.

Because Joe purchased the land assuming that there would be access to the bridge and the driveway and Joe then paid for a house and a connection, Joe can be said to rely on Ray's promise of an easement. Ray materially misrepresented the facts to Joe. In order to preserve equity, the court will likely find an easement by estoppel.

On the other hand, if Ray had offered access to the bridge and driveway after selling Joe the land, there may not be an easement by estoppel. In this instance, it is merely inconvenient if Ray revokes access to the driveway. Joe did not purchase the land and build the house in reliance on access to the driveway and bridge. Joe will need to find a separate theory to justify an easement.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Originally Posted by EdV

Well Gracie, I’ve been conspicuously absent on this issue because I’m 600 miles away in the Smoky Mountains and on the way up here last month, I took a bad fall and I’m recuperating from a fractured knee cap. I just caught this thread and spent a couple of hours reading through it so I could post intelligently without repeating anything that’s been said. But my tongue is sore from biting it.

1. This was a shock to me and I never saw it coming either.
2. The golf cart access path sits right on the county line between Sumter and Lake counties.
3. The property on the west side is listed as owned by “Villages Tri-County Medical Center Inc.” which is a nonprofit organization not affiliated in any way with Gary Morse or his companies as far as I can tell.
4. The property on the east side (on Paradises Dr.) is listed as owned by “Villages of Lake Sumter Inc.” which is of course Morse’s company.
5. From the photographs taken by BKCunningham and others, it’s impossible to say which property the wall is on. Six inches either way makes it one or the other.
6. Using aerial photographs from Google Earth, I can tell you that in 1999 the path through there appears to be just a dirt path. But in the 2004 photograph, Morse had paved his side with a divider and the Tri County Medical side installed a golf cart sized roundabout with pavers.
7. Sometime on or after the 2004 upgrade, access gates were installed there to limit access to card carrying TV residents but the town of Lady Lake soon after made them remove the gates. The reason being that you cannot discriminate access to a public road (Paradise Dr.)

These last two points are extremely important if a legal battle ensues. Both property owners made significant roadway improvements on or before 2004 with intent to provide safe paved golf cart access through that area. So that useage has been in place for over a decade.

Now, has anyone contacted the building permit departments at Lake and Sumter counties to determine for sure to whom the permit for the wall was issued?

Hi Ed,

People on here feel that you know your stuff when it comes to these kind of issues and I have no reason to believe that what you say is not correct. But, I have looked up some addresses and I don't understand how the wall could be constructed on the county line. Several of the doc in that medical center are listed at 1501 Hwy 41 LADY LAKE, Lowe's is listed as being in Lady Lake as is Aldi
I supposed that it's possible that the county line takes some kind of weird turn or twist but the first business that is listed as being in Summerfield is Wal_Mart.

[JeffAVEWS]

I was at Lady Lake Building Commission this morning, no (new) permit was issued.