[Jsan143]

Originally Posted by jmaccallum

In recent conversation with a science geek PhD friend of mine who is retiring and moving to the Villages, I asked him what kind of golf cart he wanted to get. Gas or electric? Electric of course, he replied. Why? I asked.

Well, think about it he said, in the near future there will be a Honda CRV in the Smithsonian, and they will tell people looking at it, “This is what they used to get around in back in the day, and it spit toxic fumes out the back as it went.” Every time you drive your car, or gas golf cart, it spits poison out the back. If you run it in your garage without opening the door, it will kill you. And a billion of us have been doing that for years. Where did we all think all those fumes and gases were going? Our little blue dot is a bubble, man, it ain’t ventilated.

Wow. Thinking about it as we headed to the square for a cold one, I’m glad my carts electric.

What about the strip mining and toxic waste it takes to get the lithium out of the ground! From what I understand one of the richest areas is in New Mexico and we don’t even excavate it because what it does to the environment. But we can keep giving money to China to just strip mine over there and in Afghanistan where they have the mining rates. I guess that’s OK for a little blue bubble? Then think past the initial mining and manufacturing what are we to do with all those batteries when they reach the end of their life cycles? Before I retired I flew for a major airline and we were not allowed to carry lithium batteries on our aircraft, and all major airlines have the same restrictions, talk about hazardous material. Sounds like your PhD buddy is coming from a blue state and I hope he’s here to enjoy our Village and not change it! Party on brother!

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by BevEnglish

Does this brilliant geek PhD friend have any thoughts on what we’re going to do with all the lithium batteries that all these electric vehicles (of any kind) are going to be dumping after they are used up? And how about the expense of replacing them since the cobalt comes from Russia and China? Just asking. . .

They are beginning to recycle the metals used in EVs... "Beginning" to...

[Blackbird45]

So far, I have seen arguments about the environment, from strip mining to the pollution cause by producing electricity, that we do not have the structure to support all the EVs.

We life in a capitalize society, so even though we might not want to admit it. it boils down to the almighty dollar.

If the public finds it more convenient and less expensive to own and operate an EV it will happen and industry will meet the demand.

I’m sure, maybe not the same arguments, but just as many were made against the first cars in it's time. Why would anyone get in a slow dangerous machine that is limited in where it can go, when they have a trusty horse.

[Scbang]

Originally Posted by blueash

Those scientists may be telling you the truth and also lying to you playing on your lack of scientific knowledge or you are completely not understanding what they are telling you. If I remove 1 tenth of one percent of your body does that sound just great? How about if it is your pituitary, or your heart valves, or your eyeballs? Does that sound harmless to your body function?? Removing both testes from a 180 pound man changes his weight by 6 hundreths of one percent YMMV.

Now the science. The atmosphere of the earth is made of many gases. But 78% is nitrogen and 21% is oxygen. That only leaves 1% of the atmosphere that is not those two gases. 0.9% of the atmosphere is argon and nothing we are doing is changing the levels of nitrogen, oxygen or argon... 78 + 21 + 0.9 = 99.9%
leaving guess how much... your one tenth of one percent which is all the other matter in the atmosphere including the carbon dioxide, the water vapor, the ozone etc.

We could change our air by only 0.1% by just removing all the water vapor. Zero water in the air, thus no rain ever. Does that sound like it might be a huge thing, the death of all land based life on earth. Or just remove all the ozone which is measured in parts per million and watch us all die.

Now come back and tell me how just one tenth of one percent change in the air is not a huge and likely catastrophic change to our planet. Tell me how reassured you are that in 50 years we might only change our atmosphere by one tenth of one percent.

One tenth of one percent of Cobra venom of your body weight will kill you in 30 seconds. So do global warming that melts iceberg. One country has already been vanished because of the rising sea level. Let's not discount one tenth of one percent.

Cheers!

[Scbang]

Originally Posted by Byte1

What, no one has mentioned Hydrogen fuel cells? Apparently, using hydrogen powered engines result in them only expelling water into the environment. Not an expert, but I have seen videos or read articles about them being used in fork lifts and other equipment, as well as experimental motorcycles.

Hydrogen is good. Requires only small batteries and produces water vapor as exhaust. But generating Hydrogen still requires lots of energy which still may come from oil or other disputed sources.

Cheers!

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by Scbang

One tenth of one percent of Cobra venom of your body weight will kill you in 30 seconds. So do global warming that melts iceberg. One country has already been vanished because of the rising sea level. Let's not discount one tenth of one percent.

Cheers!

And which country would that be?

[Scbang]

Originally Posted by JMintzer

And which country would that be?

Kiribati. And ten more to go.. And more after that..
10 Countries That Could Disappear Due To Climate Change

[ffresh]

Originally Posted by spd2918

Florida burns coal.

Facts about Florida
In 2019, Florida consumed less energy per capita than all but three other states, but it was the third-largest energy-consuming state overall and used almost eight times more energy than it produced.
Florida's many tourists helped make the state the nation's third-highest motor gasoline consumer in 2019, and the third-highest jet fuel user in 2020.
Florida is the second-largest producer of electricity after Texas, and natural gas fueled about 75% of Florida's total electricity net generation in 2020.
Florida's residential sector, where more than 9 in 10 households use electricity for home heating and air conditioning, consumes more than half of the electricity used in Florida, the largest share of any state.
In 2020, Florida surpassed Arizona to become fourth in the nation, after California, Texas, and North Carolina, in total solar power generating capacity.
Last Updated: December 16, 2021

United States - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

Natural gas-fired power generation has grown in Florida, displacing coal - Today in Energy - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

Fred

[ffresh]

Originally Posted by jmaccallum

Yes, and it’s not good. Dioxins, Mercury, NOX, SO2, CO2. Shelve it like the gas cars and gas golf carts. Time to take our heads out of the sand.

Do you have a recent source for that data?


Waste-to-energy electricity generation concentrated in Florida and Northeast - Today in Energy - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

Source: U.S. Energy Information Administration, Monthly Electric Generator Report
At the end of 2015, the United States had 71 waste-to-energy (WTE) plants that generated electricity in 20 U.S. states, with a total generating capacity of 2.3 gigawatts. Florida contains more than one-fifth of the nation's WTE electricity generation capacity, and in 2015, Florida's Palm Beach Renewable Energy Facility Number 2 became the first new WTE plant to come online since 1995 and the largest single WTE electricity generator in the United States.

WTE plants account for a relatively small portion of the total U.S. electric capacity and generation, providing about 0.4% of total U.S. electricity generation in 2015. WTE power plants convert the combustible content of municipal solid waste (MSW) to energy. MSW contains biomass (or biogenic) materials like paper, cardboard, food waste, grass clippings, leaves, wood, and leather products, as well as nonbiogenic materials such as plastics, metals, and petroleum-based synthetic materials. The biogenic component of MSW makes up about 59% of the total tonnage, but because of a lower heat content (i.e., less energy value), it accounts for about half of the total net electricity generation.

In 2015, Florida and four states in the Northeast accounted for 61% of the total WTE power plant capacity in the United States, and they produced 64% of total U.S. WTE electricity generation.

WTE plants are primarily intended as a MSW management option, with electricity generation a secondary benefit. Burning MSW reduces the volume of waste by about 87%. The remainder is ash from air pollutant emissions control systems, ash from the combusted material, and noncombustible materials. About 90% of WTE electricity generation capacity was added between 1980 and 1995, when landfilling MSW was relatively expensive. In the early 1990s, as the mercury and dioxin emissions implications associated with combusting MSW began to be recognized, most existing facilities had to install air pollution control systems or be shut down, and the construction of new MSW-fired electric generation capacity came to a halt. Although Florida's Palm Beach facility is the first new WTE plant to come online since 1995, some WTE generation capacity has been added to existing WTE plants since then.

Based on the most recent estimates from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, the United States produced about 254 million tons of MSW in 2013. EIA estimates that WTE plants burned about 29 million tons of MSW in 2015, of which 26 million tons were used to generate electricity. The remaining tonnage of MSW was either recycled, composted, or disposed in a landfill.

Fred

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by dtennent

While I believe electric vehicles will play a big part of transportation going forward, you should realize that catalytic converters have been on gasoline cars since 1974. The catalytic system converts carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide and NOX to nitrogen. So there are no toxic fumes coming from automobiles. Obviously, if a car is left running in a closed space, it will consume oxygen and drive up the carbon dioxide levels which will eventually cause you problems The gas powered golf cart is a different story as they have no catalytic converters - well, at least not yet.

Cars have gotten cleaner since the 1950s and much US dirty manufacturing has been outsourced to China. But, we have only 1 planet with one atmosphere, not a US atmosphere and a Chinese atmosphere. i don't remember the words "global warming" being used in the 50s or anyone talking about GREAT chunks of ice dropping into the ocean in Antarctica.
.........So, what is the difference between 1950 and today? Electric cars and trucks would give a small boost to planet Earth versus gasoline vehicles.....small, but not very significant. The significance of gas golf carts is simply that they are such an affront and insult to aware, thinking humans because they are sissoo bad that they STINK.....literally when they go by you or you are behind them. Most people never notice that because their windows are up and their A/C s are on.
.........So, the difference between 1950 and today is POPULATION......both US and world. That is what is causing the icebergs to break off. In 1950 US population was about 125 million people - today it is about 3 times as much. And world population has multiplied even more. Population is rarely linked to Global Warming for some unknown reason. Overpopulation also causes wars as resources run out. Today we are worried about a life-changing war beginning, yet it will not be linked to population and increasing greed for more resources.
......It is fine to discuss the future of gasoline vehicles versus electric, but those changes will pale in comparison to larger planet-wide changes. Just better to be aware of the BIG, BIG picture.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by DaleDivine

Batteries, they do not make electricity – they store electricity produced elsewhere, primarily by coal, uranium, natural gas-powered plants, or diesel-fueled generators. So, to say an EV is a zero-emission vehicle is not at all valid.
Also, since forty percent of the electricity generated in the U.S. is from coal-fired plants, it follows that forty percent of the EVs on the road are coal-powered, do you see?"
Einstein's formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five-thousand-pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in a car.
There are two orders of batteries, rechargeable, and single-use. The most common single-use batteries are A, AA, AAA, C, D. 9V, and lantern types. Those dry-cell species use zinc, manganese, lithium, silver oxide, or zinc and carbon to store electricity chemically. Please note they all contain toxic, heavy metals.
Rechargeable batteries only differ in their internal materials, usually lithium-ion, nickel-metal oxide, and nickel-cadmium. The United States uses three billion of these two battery types a year, and most are not recycled; they end up in landfills. California is the only state which requires all batteries be recycled. If you throw your small, used batteries in the trash, here is what happens to them.
All batteries are self-discharging. That means even when not in use, they leak tiny amounts of energy. You have likely ruined a flashlight or two from an old, ruptured battery. When a battery runs down and can no longer power a toy or light, you think of it as dead; well, it is not. It continues to leak small amounts of electricity. As the chemicals inside it run out, pressure builds inside the battery's metal casing, and eventually, it cracks. The metals left inside then ooze out. The ooze in your ruined flashlight is toxic, and so is the ooze that will inevitably leak from every battery in a landfill. All batteries eventually rupture; it just takes rechargeable batteries longer to end up in the landfill.
In addition to dry cell batteries, there are also wet cell ones used in automobiles, boats, and motorcycles. The good thing about those is, ninety percent of them are recycled. Unfortunately, we do not yet know how to recycle single-use ones properly.
But that is not half of it. For those of you excited about electric cars and a green revolution, I want you to take a closer look at batteries and also windmills and solar panels. These three technologies share what we call environmentally destructive production costs.
A typical EV battery weighs one thousand pounds, about the size of a travel trunk. It contains twenty-five pounds of lithium, sixty pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. Inside are over 6,000 individual lithium-ion cells.
It should concern you that all those toxic components come from mining. For instance, to manufacture each EV auto battery, you must process 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium, 30,000 pounds of ore for the cobalt, 5,000 pounds of ore for the nickel, and 25,000 pounds of ore for copper. All told, you dig up 500,000 pounds of the earth's crust for just - one - battery."
Sixty-eight percent of the world's cobalt, a significant part of a battery, comes from the Congo. Their mines have no pollution controls, and they employ children who die from handling this toxic material. Should we factor in these diseased kids as part of the cost of driving an electric car?"
I'd like to leave you with these thoughts. California is building the largest battery in the world near San Francisco, and they intend to power it from solar panels and windmills. They claim this is the ultimate in being 'green,' but it is not. This construction project is creating an environmental disaster. Let me tell you why.
The main problem with solar arrays is the chemicals needed to process silicate into the silicon used in the panels. To make pure enough silicon requires processing it with hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, nitric acid, hydrogen fluoride, trichloroethane, and acetone. In addition, they also need gallium, arsenide, copper-indium-gallium- diselenide, and cadmium-telluride, which also are highly toxic. Silicon dust is a hazard to the workers, and the panels cannot be recycled.
Windmills are the ultimate in embedded costs and environmental destruction. Each weighs 1688 tons (the equivalent of 23 houses) and contains 1300 tons of concrete, 295 tons of steel, 48 tons of iron, 24 tons of fiberglass, and the hard to extract rare earths neodymium, praseodymium, and dysprosium. Each blade weighs 81,000 pounds and will last 15 to 20 years, at which time it must be replaced. We cannot recycle used blades.
There may be a place for these technologies, but you must look beyond the myth of zero emissions.
"Going Green" may sound like the Utopian ideal but when you look at the hidden and embedded costs realistically with an open mind, you can see that Going Green is more destructive to the Earth's environment than meets the eye, for sure.

Great post. I would just add my opinion that advanced technology can be used correctly to benefit people. But, population compared to available resources should also be a consideration. That consideration is often overlooked.

[Vermilion Villager]

Originally Posted by jmaccallum

In recent conversation with a science geek PhD friend of mine who is retiring and moving to the Villages, I asked him what kind of golf cart he wanted to get. Gas or electric? Electric of course, he replied. Why? I asked.

Hopefully your friend will live close by me. These are the kind of folks I'd like to meet.

[Papa_lecki]

Originally Posted by Scbang

Kiribati. And ten more to go.. And more after that..
10 Countries That Could Disappear Due To Climate Change

Um - according to the internet, Kiribati is still a country - or did it just disappear this week?

Kiribati For Travellers – Kiribati National Tourism Office – Mauri .. Welcome to Kiribati!

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by Scbang

Kiribati. And ten more to go.. And more after that..
10 Countries That Could Disappear Due To Climate Change

Did you miss the "could disappear" in the article you linked?

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

Cars have gotten cleaner since the 1950s and much US dirty manufacturing has been outsourced to China. But, we have only 1 planet with one atmosphere, not a US atmosphere and a Chinese atmosphere. i don't remember the words "global warming" being used in the 50s or anyone talking about GREAT chunks of ice dropping into the ocean in Antarctica.
.........So, what is the difference between 1950 and today? Electric cars and trucks would give a small boost to planet Earth versus gasoline vehicles.....small, but not very significant. The significance of gas golf carts is simply that they are such an affront and insult to aware, thinking humans because they are sissoo bad that they STINK.....literally when they go by you or you are behind them. Most people never notice that because their windows are up and their A/C s are on.
.........So, the difference between 1950 and today is POPULATION......both US and world. That is what is causing the icebergs to break off. In 1950 US population was about 125 million people - today it is about 3 times as much. And world population has multiplied even more. Population is rarely linked to Global Warming for some unknown reason. Overpopulation also causes wars as resources run out. Today we are worried about a life-changing war beginning, yet it will not be linked to population and increasing greed for more resources.
......It is fine to discuss the future of gasoline vehicles versus electric, but those changes will pale in comparison to larger planet-wide changes. Just better to be aware of the BIG, BIG picture.

There are articles about global warning from 1900...

There was "climate change" with glaciers receding a million years ago, giving birth to the "Great Plains". THE most fertile farmland in the world...

Are you suggesting that was bad, as well?