[Bilyclub]

[QUOTE=retiredguy123;2255352]I don't think most people would interpret it that way. The only cross traffic is golf carts and other vehicles always have the right-of-way. Are you saying that when they have a stop sign on the ground at the gate, that the golf cart has the right-of-way when they got there first? Personally, I don't think they should ever install stop signs at the gates. Too confusing.[/QUOTE


You're basic premise is wrong. Golf carts have a the same r-o-w as the other vehicles on the road. Delmar and Avenida Central which has a 4 way stop. If a golf cart stops first they have the right of way. If you truly believe what you are saying you are a menace on the roads.

[Lisanp@aol.com]

Aren't these "Golf Carts of the Future" available today under the name Smart Car? Not exactly a "smart" option on an interstate, IMO. However, there are many foreign cities that have restricted zones in the city center where only electric (or low emission) vehicles are permitted. I find these fume free locations delightful to spend time in.

[Topspinmo]

Originally Posted by Stu4206

Do you put your hands in the air as you go over? I do.

No, it’s too narrow , I keep my hands on wheel.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by Bilyclub

You're basic premise is wrong. Golf carts have a the same r-o-w as the other vehicles on the road. Delmar and Avenida Central which has a 4 way stop. If a golf cart stops first they have the right of way. If you truly believe what you are saying you are a menace on the roads.

Menace on the roads? That may be a wee bit of exaggeration, no?

Retiredguy was referring to golf cart crossings near neighborhood entrance gates. At these crossings the golf carts do not have the right of way, the automotive traffic does. As mentioned in another post, placing a stop sign for automotive traffic at these crossings could give the appearance of a three-way stop (there is no oncoming traffic). The driver of the automobile might believe the golf cart that was already at the intersection has the right of way though that is not normally the case.

I do believe something needs to be present when the gates are down. There needs to be some way to control the speed and intensity of automotive traffic to make the crossing safer for carts, bikes, and pedestrians when the gates are not present. A temporary stop sign, while often ignored and potentially confusing, is better than nothing.

While traveling on a roadway, either in the lane or in the separated golf cart lane, the golf cart is subject to the same rules the automobiles are. At a four-way stop, if the golf cart stops first then the golf cart has the right of way.

[OhioBuckeye]

Your comment is way, way to long to read a simple answer would do. Like 4 yrs. ago there were 70,000 carts in TV!

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

Menace on the roads? That may be a wee bit of exaggeration, no?

Retiredguy was referring to golf cart crossings near neighborhood entrance gates. At these crossings the golf carts do not have the right of way, the automotive traffic does. As mentioned in another post, placing a stop sign for automotive traffic at these crossings could give the appearance of a three-way stop (there is no oncoming traffic). The driver of the automobile might believe the golf cart that was already at the intersection has the right of way though that is not normally the case.

I do believe something needs to be present when the gates are down. There needs to be some way to control the speed and intensity of automotive traffic to make the crossing safer for carts, bikes, and pedestrians when the gates are not present. A temporary stop sign, while often ignored and potentially confusing, is better than nothing.

While traveling on a roadway, either in the lane or in the separated golf cart lane, the golf cart is subject to the same rules the automobiles are. At a four-way stop, if the golf cart stops first then the golf cart has the right of way.

Is it your assertion that the traffic code treats a 4 way stop at a gate crossing differently than any other 4 way stop???? If so, please cite the statute.

[OhioBuckeye]

They problem I have with that is when I had our golf cart a 2012 for 5 yrs.I put 25,500 miles on it & only put 5,000 miles in 5 yrs. on our car & used the fraction of gas in our car. But that’s your business what you drive. I’m just saying most of The Villiagers have out voted you. I still drive my car that I had 4 yrs. ago when we lived in TV. I’m guessing you already wore out you car & stating on your 2nd or 3rd car! Just saying but it your opinion!

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Is it your assertion that the traffic code treats a 4 way stop at a gate crossing differently than any other 4 way stop???? If so, please cite the statute.

I believe traffic code deals with four-way stops where two roadways intersect. In the case of the the MMP crossings, one of those intersecting is not a roadway.

The MMPs are also not crosswalks, or at least the guidance we have been given (drivers should not stop and signal pedestrians to proceed) do not treat them as crosswalks.

Except for railroad crossings and movable bridges, gates are rarely installed on public roadways.

I wouldn't be surprised if traffic code did not cover this situation at all.

[vintageogauge]

Most golf cars do not have AC, I bought a new Yamaha when we moved here, I don't golf, didn't find riding around in the heat very comfortable, had several near accidents that would not have been my fault, got rid of it and don't miss it at all. I would much prefer to be in a car with AC to go where ever I feel like going. For golf, there are rentals available.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

I believe traffic code deals with four-way stops where two roadways intersect. In the case of the the MMP crossings, one of those intersecting is not a roadway.

The MMPs are also not crosswalks, or at least the guidance we have been given (drivers should not stop and signal pedestrians to proceed) do not treat them as crosswalks.

Except for railroad crossings and movable bridges, gates are rarely installed on public roadways.

I wouldn't be surprised if traffic code did not cover this situation at all.

Point made. So, consider this scenario: An exit from a parking lot (NOT a roadway) has a stop sign, but so does the road. Can the car on the road just go ahead and assume he has the right of way?????

[djlnc]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

(drivers should not stop and signal pedestrians to proceed)

Every once in a while, you'll see someone waving on someone who does not have the right of way. This could be at a gate entrance when the cart has a stop sign and the car doesn't and the car waves the cart ahead, or at an intersection where opposing cars are stopped, one car signals for a left turn and the oncoming driver waves them ahead.

This is all very neighborly, but puts the driver who does not have the right of way in a precarious legal position if something happens. (And it gets drivers into a bad habit of proceeding when they don't have the right of way.)

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

I believe traffic code deals with four-way stops where two roadways intersect. In the case of the the MMP crossings, one of those intersecting is not a roadway.

The MMPs are also not crosswalks, or at least the guidance we have been given (drivers should not stop and signal pedestrians to proceed) do not treat them as crosswalks.

Except for railroad crossings and movable bridges, gates are rarely installed on public roadways.

I wouldn't be surprised if traffic code did not cover this situation at all.

I think we both have speculated and opinionated enough, so here are THE FACTS, from the Florida Statutes:

First: definition of a "highway:

(53) STREET OR HIGHWAY.—
(a) The entire width between the boundary lines of every way or place of whatever nature when any part thereof is open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular traffic;
(b) The entire width between the boundary lines of any privately owned way or place used for vehicular travel by the owner and those having express or implied permission from the owner, but not by other persons, or any limited access road owned or controlled by a special district, whenever, by written agreement entered into under s. 316.006(2)(b) or (3)(b), a county or municipality exercises traffic control jurisdiction over said way or place;

So, by legal definition by the State of Florida, a MMP IS a "highway" since it is public and carries "vehicular traffic"(carts, cycles, even scooters)

Next, the definition of an intersection:

17) INTERSECTION.—
(a) The area embraced within the prolongation or connection of the lateral curblines; or, if none, then the lateral boundary lines of the roadways of two highways which join one another at, or approximately at, right angles; or the area within which vehicles traveling upon different highways joining at any other angle may come in conflict.

So, again by definition by the State of Florida, the meeting of an MMP and the "car" road, even at a gate crossing is an intersection.

So finally, :

(b) At a four-way stop intersection, the driver of the first vehicle to stop at the intersection shall be the first to proceed. If two or more vehicles reach the four-way stop intersection at the same time, the driver of the vehicle on the left shall yield the right-of-way to the vehicle on the right.

So in conclusion, again, according to THE LAW, an MMP is a "highway", where it crosses at a gate is an "intersection" and the first to arrive, EVEN IF A GOLF CART OR BICYCLE, has the right of way. PERIOD.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Point made. So, consider this scenario: An exit from a parking lot (NOT a roadway) has a stop sign, but so does the road. Can the car on the road just go ahead and assume he has the right of way?????

The list of priorities that I try to follow:
1. Don't kill anyone
2. Don't hit anyone
3. Don't hit anything
4. Don't put myself in the position of getting hit
5. Follow the law as best I understand it
6. Be predictable

I haven't seen that configuration. If I did, I would look for the "3-way" text on my stop sign or the presence of an octagonal stop sign in the parking lot. If I saw either of those I would treat it as an intersection of roads. Basically, I would be trying to exercise 3-6 above.

The difference with the MMP is there is no (or only very few) octagonal stop signs on the MMPs. I don't see the signs and I recognize what I am about to cross is not a roadway so I assume the non-automotive traffic must yield to traffic on the roadway.

I guess I use the gates as a physical implementation of a stop light. When they are down I stop, when they are up I go, and when I go I am careful to exercise 3 and 4 regardless of 5.

[djlnc]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

So in conclusion, again, according to THE LAW, an MMP is a "highway", where it crosses at a gate is an "intersection" and the first to arrive, EVEN IF A GOLF CART OR BICYCLE, has the right of way. PERIOD.

But the gate is generally not a 4 way stop, so that does not apply.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

I think we both have speculated and opinionated enough, so here are THE FACTS, from the Florida Statutes:

First: definition of a "highway:

(53) STREET OR HIGHWAY.—
(a) The entire width between the boundary lines of every way or place of whatever nature when any part thereof is open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular traffic;
(b) The entire width between the boundary lines of any privately owned way or place used for vehicular travel by the owner and those having express or implied permission from the owner, but not by other persons, or any limited access road owned or controlled by a special district, whenever, by written agreement entered into under s. 316.006(2)(b) or (3)(b), a county or municipality exercises traffic control jurisdiction over said way or place;

So, by legal definition by the State of Florida, a MMP IS a "highway" since it is public and carries "vehicular traffic"(carts, cycles, even scooters)

Next, the definition of an intersection:

17) INTERSECTION.—
(a) The area embraced within the prolongation or connection of the lateral curblines; or, if none, then the lateral boundary lines of the roadways of two highways which join one another at, or approximately at, right angles; or the area within which vehicles traveling upon different highways joining at any other angle may come in conflict.

So, again by definition by the State of Florida, the meeting of an MMP and the "car" road, even at a gate crossing is an intersection.

So finally, :

(b) At a four-way stop intersection, the driver of the first vehicle to stop at the intersection shall be the first to proceed. If two or more vehicles reach the four-way stop intersection at the same time, the driver of the vehicle on the left shall yield the right-of-way to the vehicle on the right.

So in conclusion, again, according to THE LAW, an MMP is a "highway", where it crosses at a gate is an "intersection" and the first to arrive, EVEN IF A GOLF CART OR BICYCLE, has the right of way. PERIOD.

If you have your Florida statutes open, look up the required marking for indicating that vehicular traffic must stop. I have always been told it is an octagonal sign with red background....... If I don't see one of those on the MMP then I don't legally have to stop? (EDIT: The MMP has octagonal stop signs at all the gate crossings I came to today.)

We're spending a lot of time discussing a situation that should happen infrequently. Whatever we prove is right or wrong matters very little because a majority of Villagers are going to make up their own rules anyway.