[joeyd]

I am being forced to take Pat the Plumber into Small Claims Court for misrepresentation and grossly overcharging for work promised.

If you, or if you know of anyone who has recent experience in Small Claims Court regarding Pat the Plumber (or any small local business) can give me some advise, I would deeply appreciate it.

I am determined to take this matter as far as I can both legally and morally. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thank You

JoeyD

[784caroline]

JoeyD

Im no lawyer but how do you plan to prove Joe the Plumber grossly misrepresented or overcharged.... The fact that it does not appear correct or you have a gut feeling, or my neighbor said, will not cut muster in a court of law.

You will need to substantiate your claim by having another plumber or a plumbing expert testify on your behalf what was entatiled to do the job correctly and that what you received was so far out of line with what the established norm was, it was excessive. The burden of proof is on you. If you could show the Joe the Plumber has a history of overcharging that would help.

I have gone to court a number of times representating myself (mostly traffic), but you cannot let emotions get in the way of facts. Facts will always win a case and you can never be over-prepared even for small claims court.

[joeyd]

You really sound like you know what you are talking about. The misrepresentation comes from the fact that they told us that the parts were not under warranty, when in fact they were. The overcharging stems from the fact that they told her that they would do a complete rebuild of the unit and then charged my wife $750.00 to only to have replaced a thermostat and a heating element (retails for less than $50.00 for parts). I have documentation from another local plumber that a brand new identicle unit would have only cost $550.00 installed.
I really hate being ripped-off by this company. I know that they have been receiving numerous similar complaints from other Village residents, but I don't know if I can bring that up in court or not. As an example, the Seniors Against Crime Office & The Villages Warranty office have both told me of getting many, many complaints about them.
I don't want them to get away with this so I will take it as far as I can go legally. Thank you for your keen insight and advice.

Joe

[784caroline]

JOe

NOt sure you can lay the blame on the plumber to know if your item was under warranty or not..that is your responsibility...although a good responsible plumber will tell you to check with someone to see if it is under warranty if in fact there is any question.

Regarding the overcharging, alot of people just want to fix something even if it a year or 2 or 3 years old and never make a comparison to what something would cost new. Again if thats the case its the persons fault. BUt if your wife was told you would have a complete rebuild of the unit for $750 what did that mean??? ( I am playing devils advocate here so please dont bite me!) I mean a complete rebuild of a water heater is the thermostat, pressure relief valve, heating elements, drain and refill . Now should that cost $750...NO WAY. And I think that is your case that a prudent man (incuding the repair man) would not and should not recommend repairs that would cost $750 when i fact you can get something new for $550 (Assuming the $550 includes labor!)

If you paid the $750 (and can prove it) a judge will most likely only reimburse you $200 because you in essence have a new water heater (with the exception of the liner itself). SO you have to decide if its worth the $200.

Good luck

[gary42651]

Hi Joe, any plumber can tell if a hot water heater is under warranty by looking at the serial number located on the rating plate. The date on when the unit was made is part of this number. Our company would have charged you $30.00 for the parts, $105.00 for labor + sales tax. If its still under warranty, there would have been no charge for the parts. I have been doing this type of work, (I hate to say) for 40 years. I am a snowbird to the Villages and if I am in town when you have court, I would be more than happy to be an expert witness for you. I hate it when companies try to take advantage of people in the villages. Oh and by the way, when I am in the villages the last thing I want to do is plumbing, so I am not available for anyones plumbing problems, golf yes, plumbing no way...lol

[joeyd]

Hi Gary,

You are the light at the end of the tunnel for me! This has been the most frustrating experience that I have had in many many years.
I am in my home in MA right now and will be returning to TV in early May.
I will be expecting to have the court order served to Pat the Plumber in April.
I know that they will have a pre-trial set for mid May and if no agreement is met, they will then set a court date.
I really appreciate your kind offer to appear as a expert witness. I recently found out that a letter that had been written by the expert and notified by a Rotory Public would be accepted in court. I would be more than happy to mail you copies of the agreement form & work sheet form for you to review and then you can reponsed to them.
These forms would give you a detailed explaination of what they did. Please let me know if this would be o.k. with you. I of course would pay for any expenses.

Thank You so much!!!

Joe

[gary42651]

Hi Joe,

Like I said before I will do anything I can to help you with this problem, I look at all the people in the Villages as one big happy family, and never charge my family for any services, and hate it when contractors do this, I will send you my address.

Gary

[gary42651]

Joe,

Let me know if you received my address, I`m new to this site and I`m not sure if I sent it the correct way.

[784caroline]

Question: Does the expert witness who is a licensed tradesman have to be licensed in the state of FLorida. I know we are talking mostly ethical issues here but the argument would be everything from Codes, standards of practice, rates could or would all be different from up north compared to Florida. The Defense would try everythiging its power to get the "expert" testimony or statement made non-admissible.

[lefty]

You may want to check with the county licensing office or the state office over contractors. I wish I knew the exact office, but they have a scale that shows what is the normal local rate for a project. Good Luck

[joeyd]

Hi Lefty,

Good avice. I'll definately look into it.

Joe

[gary42651]

Originally Posted by 784caroline

Question: Does the expert witness who is a licensed tradesman have to be licensed in the state of FLorida. I know we are talking mostly ethical issues here but the argument would be everything from Codes, standards of practice, rates could or would all be different from up north compared to Florida. The Defense would try everythiging its power to get the "expert" testimony or statement made non-admissible.

The state of Florida requires that the owner of a plumbing business must have a license, his employees do not, but the license holder is responsible for any work the employee does. The only code requirement for this water heater repair job is what I said above. No permit or inspection is required for a repair. The standards of practice for this repair would be the same anywhere in the country, all standard residential hot water heaters are built the same way and have the same working parts that are interchangeable, and this makes it easy for someone to keep the parts stocked on the trucks. The cost of living in New Jersey is much higher than most places in the country, of course our pricing will not be the same, but much higher than what you find in Florida. I have been in court several times and never had a problem proving to the defense that I was an expert in the field of plumbing.
I`m just trying to help someone that I feel was grossly overcharged and I take my hat off to anyone willing to do something about it, regardless of the cost, too many times people and companies just give up because of the cost, leaving the `bad guy` to continue to do what he does. I don`t think Joe cares about the money as much as he does about the fact of someone getting away with this. I will do anything to help Joe or anyone else in the Villages with problems like this. I know the court system is different than Jersey, in Jersey this guy would be facing criminal court, not small claims court.

[golfnut]

Was this in fact a rebuild on an electric hot water heater, because if it was, why wouldn't you buy a new water heater for $300 and have it installed?....gn

[784caroline]

gary..gary..slow down and dont take this personal. No one is doubting your qualifications of being a plumber or how your testimony would be received in your home state. I dont think it is unreasonable for joeyd to make certain you would qualify as an "expert" witness in a state other than your own. I certainly hope you do!! We are talking "legal" technicalities here, not your ability to know right from wrong, and not to check it out could possibly leave joeyd without a case if it all was based on expert testimony that was not admissible.

Of course I, like you, hope joeyd (and you) get the bum, but as I said before, you have to leave emotion out of the argument and stay with the facts and know what is admissible.