Why do we as Sumter County taxpayers put up with this?

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  #196  
Old 02-12-2020, 02:53 PM
Advogado Advogado is offline
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Originally Posted by birdiebill View Post
A point that seems to be missing is that developers do not pay for impact fees out of their own pockets. An impact fee is just another cost of doing business, and that fee is added to the final cost of the new home. The higher the impact fee, the higher the cost of the new home. In reality the new home owner pays the impact fee.
First, basic business and economics 101: Businesses cannot simply pass on increased costs. Competition prohibits it. A business always charges as much as it believes the market will bear.

If the Developer could charge higher prices without losing sales, he would already be doing it, even before he got hit with a realistic impact fee. If you have studied economics, you know that a demand curve slopes downward: higher prices = fewer units sold. And the Developer does face competition: retirement communities throughout the sunbelt.

But let's assume you are right. Fine, the Developer magically succeeds in passing on 100% of his increased, non-sweetheart impact fee. Then the costs of the infrastructure will be paid for by the new home owners-- exactly the ones necessitating it.

In neither case, are the costs offloaded on the existing Sumter County taxpayers, as the County Commissioners are doing now.
  #197  
Old 02-12-2020, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by golfing eagles View Post
To paraphrase "The Wizard of Oz", You're not in Collier County any more
That's for sure.
  #198  
Old 02-12-2020, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Advogado View Post
This post absolutely misses the point.

The Developer is responsible for the need for the new roads and should be paying for them through an increase in his sweetheart impact fee. He should also be paying for other infrastructure (like libraries, fire, and police stations, related equipment) the way he would say in Collier County, where he would be paying $20,000/house or more than 20 times more than he pays here.

Who makes up for the lost impact-fee revenue? You, I, and the other Sumter County taxpayers do. In reality, the tax increase is going into the Developer's pocket, right beside his County Commissioners.
No, I think you are missing the point.

A "developer" buys land, builds something on it, and then sells it FOR A PROFIT. The difference between his costs and his revenue is his profit margin. Yes, you can put additional costs on the developer, but those costs just get passed on to the consumer. People have argued that he can't pass on all his costs, but guess what---HE CAN. The only thing that keeps the profit margin in check is competition, but there is nothing around here that can compete with TV. I know nothing about Collier County, but it would seem strange that a developer would have to build PUBLIC libraries and PUBLIC police stations at his cost. In effect, that would be the reverse of what you object to----people in a specific development paying for services for the county as a whole

So now, I have to ask, do YOU live in TV or just in a surrounding area of Sumter County?
  #199  
Old 02-12-2020, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Advogado View Post
First, basic business and economics 101: Businesses cannot simply pass on increased costs. Competition prohibits it. A business always charges as much as it believes the market will bear.



If all you take is the introductory class Basic Business & Economics 101, you are left uneducated. 201 & 301 expands on the basic economic "rules". The competition to The Villages does not prevent them from passing costs onto the customers.


No one in Sumter is paying $20k. TV could easily pass on an additional $2k and sell every house they can build.
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  #200  
Old 02-12-2020, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by dewilson58 View Post
If all you take is the introductory class Basic Business & Economics 101, you are left uneducated. 201 & 301 expands on the basic economic "rules". The competition to The Villages does not prevent them from passing costs onto the customers.


No one in Sumter is paying $20k. TV could easily pass on an additional $2k and sell every house they can build.

First, I don't know that it is relevant since what we are talking about is common sense, not advanced economic theory, but you raised the issue about my studying beyond Economics 101. In fact, I majored in Economics and was elected to Omicron Delta Epsilon (national economics honorary). Although it has been years since I studied the subject, I haven't forgotten everything, and the realities have not changed.

Perhaps you could explain your assertion about businesses being able to pass all cost increases on to their customers. If you were right, a business would never go bankrupt; it would just raise its prices until it made money. Just for fun, let's dig a little deeper:


Consider this: Why do you think the Developer had his County Commissioners offload his infrastructure costs on to the taxpayers???? Think about it.

To get technical: As you say, if the Developer upped his price by the amount of an increased impact fee, the Developer could eventually sell every house he builds. Product differentiation would permit that. But, because of competition, the sales would take place over a longer period of time and his profits would, therefore, take a serious hit.

Look at it this way, if the Developer could increase his prices in the amount of an increased impact fee without reducing his profits, he should immediately fire his chief financial officer for not having increased prices already, i.e., before the increase in impact fees. It would have been poor business to leave all that money on the table. But nobody has ever accused the Developer of being a bad businessman.

But let's assume you are right and the Developer could successfully pass on 100% of an arm's-length impact fee to the buyers of new homes. I would be fine with that because then you, I, and the other present Sumter County taxpayers would not be paying the Developer's infrastructure costs for him. They would fall on to the house buyers responsible for them.
  #201  
Old 02-12-2020, 05:55 PM
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Default First year taxes are higher because of homesteading.

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Originally Posted by skip0358 View Post
OK I been reading these posts since they started. I've posted before on the topic. I just pulled up my tax bill since 2009 when we moved here. My taxed with the increase this year are still $51 dollars less then my first years tax bill. Yea I know it's an increase big whop $213 dollars more than my lowest year of 2016 and $213 dollars more than last year. Stop with the 25% increase that would have been $610 dollars then I have something to complain about. Every year more & more things are being added & upgraded that's why we moved here period. A tax increase which is costing me 1 beer a week out more is not an increase period. Yea maybe certain people have been in office to long that's what elections are for but I think and I know I'm going to get beat on for saying this it's a hell of a lot better & 100 times cheaper.
You cannot get a homestead to be in the first tax bill. It isn’t figured in until the second year. So your tax bill from year one doesn’t compare to year two if you homestead and have movedfrom another home that was homesteaded.
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  #202  
Old 02-12-2020, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Advogado View Post

And this.


The POA Working Hard For TV Residents (poke here)


Sorry, but since the POA is so busy ensuring that we don't get bulldozed or ripped off by Da Family (whether one cares or not)...they don't have any wheelchairs to temporarily loan out.

You'll have to get those from Da Family's sock-puppet/mouthpiece/propaganda organization.

.
  #203  
Old 02-13-2020, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ColdNoMore View Post
And this.


The POA Working Hard For TV Residents (poke here)


Sorry, but since the POA is so busy ensuring that we don't get bulldozed or ripped off by Da Family (whether one cares or not)...they don't have any wheelchairs to temporarily loan out.

You'll have to get those from Da Family's sock-puppet/mouthpiece/propaganda organization.

.
If only the POA would stick to the business of advocating for the residents and stay out of other issues like politics.

I still wish we had a third group that was more unbiased and less against the developer.

Until then, I will stay away from the POA. Just my opinion.

There are so few issues that really need any group at all. Just call warranty. I think they are awesome.
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  #204  
Old 02-13-2020, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Advogado View Post
In fact, I majored in Economics and was elected to Omicron Delta Epsilon (national economics honorary).



Perhaps you could explain your assertion about businesses being able to pass all cost increases on to their customers. If you were right, a business would never go bankrupt; it would just raise its prices until it made money.


Why do you think the Developer had his County Commissioners offload his infrastructure costs on to the taxpayers????


To get technical: As you say, if the Developer upped his price by the amount of an increased impact fee, the Developer could eventually sell every house he builds. Product differentiation would permit that. But, because of competition, the sales would take place over a longer period of time and his profits would, therefore, take a serious hit.

Look at it this way, if the Developer could increase his prices in the amount of an increased impact fee without reducing his profits, he should immediately fire his chief financial officer for not having increased prices already, i.e., before the increase in impact fees. It would have been poor business to leave all that money on the table. But nobody has ever accused the Developer of being a bad businessman.

But let's assume you are right and the Developer could successfully pass on 100% of an arm's-length impact fee to the buyers of new homes. I would be fine with that because then you, I, and the other present Sumter County taxpayers would not be paying the Developer's infrastructure costs for him. They would fall on to the house buyers responsible for them.








ODE: Kind of hanging onto the past aren't we. I did not find ODE as much of an honor when this was handed to me +30 years ago. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz And I was named player of the week in 8th grade after our third football game. Boom!!!


"Assertion"...........not businesses, The Villages. They can and they do. That's why it's value is over a billion dollars.


Why?? To provide housing at a lower price and still maintain their business model, which includes growth, quality & profits.


Not in the last 30 years and probably not in our life times. No where near that point on the curve. No significant hit in the crystal ball.


Now you're just being silly. The CFO of TV does not determine pricing. He's a good guy doing quite well. Leaving money on the table is not a sin, done it many times.



Of course I'm right. How much of the developer's cost is the county paying this year?? What is the actual dollar amount in the 2019/2020 fiscal year???


Well that was a waste of time.
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Last edited by dewilson58; 02-13-2020 at 09:40 AM.
  #205  
Old 02-13-2020, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by dewilson58 View Post







ODE: Kind of hanging onto the past aren't we. I did not find ODE as much of an honor when this was handed to me +30 years ago. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz


"Assertion"...........not businesses, The Villages. They can and they do. That's why it's value is over a billion dollars.


Why?? To provide housing at a lower price and still maintain their business model, which includes growth, quality & profits.


Not in the last 30 years and probably not in our life times. No where near that point on the curve. No significant hit in the crystal ball.


Now you're just being silly. The CFO of TV does not determine pricing. He's a good guy doing quite well. Leaving money on the table is not a sin, done it many times.



Of course I'm right. How much of the developer's cost is the county paying this year?? What is the actual dollar amount in the 2019/2020 fiscal year???


Well that was a waste of time.
I kind of wondered what the point of the post was too - other than to tell us about an award earned a lifetime ago.
  #206  
Old 02-13-2020, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by graciegirl View Post
If only the POA would stick to the business of advocating for the residents and stay out of other issues like politics.

I still wish we had a third group that was more unbiased and less against the developer.

Until then, I will stay away from the POA. Just my opinion.

There are so few issues that really need any group at all. Just call warranty. I think they are awesome.
Did the developer use politicians (Sumter County Commissioners) to get a really sweet deal?
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  #207  
Old 02-13-2020, 02:27 PM
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Did the developer use politicians (Sumter County Commissioners) to get a really sweet deal?
I have seen no reason not to see it the developer's way. So you can say that. After observing carefully all the doings and goings on for more than fourteen years we have lived here, I have to side with the developer.

I have no agenda other than enjoying the heck out of a beautiful place. Don't sell houses or know the Morses. I am so sorry I never had the opportunity to shake Gary Morse's hand. I would not want the stress that the developers must face with all of the decisions made. They certainly earn and deserve the money.

I am glad to live in such a desirable area and be able to do my fun things with such nice people.
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  #208  
Old 02-13-2020, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by graciegirl View Post
I have seen no reason not to see it the developer's way. So you can say that. After observing carefully all the doings and goings on for more than fourteen years we have lived here, I have to side with the developer.

I have no agenda other than enjoying the heck out of a beautiful place. Don't sell houses or know the Morses. I am so sorry I never had the opportunity to shake Gary Morse's hand. I would not want the stress that the developers must face with all of the decisions made. They certainly earn and deserve the money.

I am glad to live in such a desirable area and be able to do my fun things with such nice people.
I agree with you. I think TV is a beautiful and extremely desirable place to live. I also have friends here and like the amenities.

Also, I don't begrudge the developer for making lots of money.

However you mentioned how you wish the POA would stay out of politics. I asked if the developer used politicians to get a sweet deal?
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  #209  
Old 02-13-2020, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by New Englander View Post
I agree with you. I think TV is a beautiful and extremely desirable place to live. I also have friends here and like the amenities.

Also, I don't begrudge the developer for making lots of money.

However you mentioned how you wish the POA would stay out of politics. I asked if the developer used politicians to get a sweet deal?
Not sure that there is any way to answer with facts or truth from this place. There has been no one that has filed a lawsuit or even found out if a lawsuit could be filed or if any lawyer would take it. There have been all kinds of pontifications, accusations, slander and conspiracies thrown around. No one has provided any proof of anything at all, only their opinions and we know what everyone has as well as opinions.

I asked when all the diatribe about this started a long time back for someone who has facts and undeniable proof that a crime has been committed to take it to court. Politicians being bought is a crime. Still nothing has happened.

The cost to society for maintaining it are a shared responsibility. If residents living in the "new section" to the south should pay all of the cost for expansion and maintenance in "their" area it only goes to reason that they should not pay for the maintenance of roads or facilities north of 44 as they were not here to make them decline. I do not mind spreading cost out among all as this keeps cost down for all and facilities evenly distributed and maintained
  #210  
Old 02-13-2020, 07:13 PM
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Sorry eyc234 but you are posting without reading my original post. There was only facts from Sumter County government. We are attempting to raise facts that most people living in The Villages put their heads in the sand and have no clue what the developers are doing. The developers control our local newspapers and radio stations. No one is willing to challenge the developers up until now with a large group of Villagers moving to remove all Sumter County Commissioners who are puppets of the developers. The residents in Sumter County who do not live in The Villages are the major losers for having The Villagers Developers making them pay taxes that cover their cost! Many of the people who posted don’t give a damn about these poor people!

When people slam the ones posting about limited tee time in the Villages it seems that they only play executive courses which are plentiful in the Southern Oaks area. But those of us who play Championship courses find it difficult to get key tee off times. So with 65,000 new home without a new championship course being built in Southern Oaks because the developers who own the Championship courses are not investing in them! They would rather build profitable homes.

Now I am asking questions about if the Villages land company if Federal environmental impact studies have been approved. If they have good for them BUT if they have not then they must stop all construction. Don’t assume they have done this. I have a Freedom of informations request registered today with the FEC! While living in Texas, three residents, including myself, sued Governor Rick Perry and the State of Texas because Perry was attempting to sell state roads Which the taxpayers had already paid for to a Spanish company for developing private toll roads. We won and they lost because they did not do an impact study. Perry backed away from his private toll road direction.
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