[gfmucci]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

And GF. You don't get it. And thank you for the "That's great".* I guess.

What exactly don't I get?* That there are exceptions and you may have experienced them?* Are you suggesting that the cattle barns that pass themselves off as "schools" housing 3,000 plus students is the best environment for a child to spend 80% of his waking hours?* What these are good for is saving tax payers money (economies of scale prevail) and housing the kids while the parents work.

Your previous post indicates that your idea of a "mega school" is a school with enrollment of less than 1,200 kids.* My idea of a "mega school" is an enrollment of 2,000 to 3,000 kids or more.* When you defend the performance of "large schools", what size school are you speaking of?

If your experience and knowledge is based on the "fewer than 1,200 student school" you have little basis to suggest I don't get it.* An opinion just based on narrow personal experience is like visiting a hand full of planets in the universe and coming to the conclusion that they are all alike.

"That's great!" Yes. That was a sincere statement. It is a great thing when people do what they love doing and what they love doing is helpful to others.

[graciegirl]

Read where I say that was a CLASS of 900, a senior class, not four years enrollment. There are five high schools of that size within 20 miles of my house and they are all doing a good job. Lakota East, Lakota West. Mason, Princeton and Fairfield. They all pay their teachers well and keep them a long time. They require contining education for their staff and most have post graduate degrees. But they can't require the dedication that I personally have observed.

I am not suggesting a cattle barn is a place for anyone.

What mega schools are you talking about? Where are they? Do you base this on personal experience? Do you have children or grandchildren who have experienced this first hand?

Here is a link to an article written in 2001 that suggests smaller schools are more effective for poor and minority students, but affluent students do better in larger schools.http://www.wested.org/online_pubs/po-01-03.pdf

Both poor, minority, affluent and majority students are children, kids, important human beings, and they all have a right to the education that is best for them.

[gfmucci]

My wife had been in a variety of schools, including a 3500 student high school - her office was adjacent to school security where offenders were processed. There were nightmare scenarios. And this was not a ghetto school - it was a N. Virginia suburb school. I have known several school planners in my profession. I am a student of human behavior.

Thanks for linking to a great article. I would presume upper middle class students would tend to have more involved parents and kids with better self-esteem prior to entering a mega-sized school. Consequently they are better able to cope with the mass of same-aged peers in their socialization process.

But let's ask ourselves: What socio-economic class of students do MOST public schools serve? Affluent, upper middle class? Absolutely not. They serve primarily lower through middle class students.

Just by definition, then, the great majority of students in this nation range from lower through middle class. By deduction, therefore, smaller schools would be best for the majority of public school students.

It is a reasonable premise that a smaller scale school environment with a greater adult to student ratio, and less "non-directed" peer pressure among students would provide a better learning environment as well as a better socialization process for the majority of students. Unfortunately, the inertia of most modern school systems and the penny wise/pound foolish attitudes of many school constituents places cost savings and economies of scale ahead of education.

[chuckinca]

My youngest son graduated in a CLASS of 850 (total of the four classes was near 4000).

The physical plant of the school is one of the best in the SF Bay Area - I have had visiting parents from out of area schools comment that the school looks more like a JC than a HS.

The available activities are probably nearly what Gracie mentioned at her local school.

The Band and Color Guard, 300 strong with 100 parent chaperons, participated in the New York Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade in 1999. The 400 stayed in New York for two weeks and did all the tourist things. Total cost was nearly $250K raised thru car washes, concerts, etc (and our city is basically a blue collar kinda place). They were in the 2003 Rose Bowl Parade, in 2005 the Edinburgh Scotland Easter Festival and this year they are going to the Olympics in China!

The Forensics Speech and Debate team is 5 times California State Champions and currently National Champions for the past three years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Logan_High_School

[gfmucci]

I agree that there certainly are mega-sized schools around the country that have great facilities and programs.* And I will bet a Buffalo carrot that 9 out of 10 of these great, large schools are populated by upper middle income folk.* One of my daughters attended a high school in a suburb west of St. Louis.* The school facilitities, grounds, and programs were fantastic.* The main entranceway to the main building had a three story atrium with fountains and waterfalls. My daughter even participated in a Japanese exchange program while there and took Japanese.* She loved it.* That school drew from an area where the average price of homes was $300,000.* For the St. Louis area in the late 80's that was affluent.* The great majority of schools don't have the blessing of that kind of demographic.

[graciegirl]

GF.

As long as there is breath left in my body, I will try to use what I have been given to correct that situation in any way I can. Sometimes all I can do, or any of us can do who are interested in better public education is to go to the local school and read to the kids, which I intend to do when we come to TV.

Sometimes we can do more. That is up to each of us.

I have been told by the rep who worked with us on our new home in TV, whose children attend the local public school, (a charter school) that it is an excellent school and her three are getting a great education and having a good start.

I am so pleased to hear that.

NOW I am done with this subject.

[gfmucci]

Me too!!


Maybe. *

Except one last (or next to the last) question.* Is the charter school ONLY for kids of parents who work in TV?* What is the criteria for attending?

[Boomer]

Originally Posted by gfmucci

I agree that there certainly are mega-sized schools around the country that have great facilities and programs. And I will bet a Buffalo carrot that 9 out of 10 of these great, large schools are populated by upper middle income folk. One of my daughters attended a high school in a suburb west of St. Louis. The school facilitities, grounds, and programs were fantastic. The main entranceway to the main building had a three story atrium with fountains and waterfalls. My daughter even participated in a Japanese exchange program while there and took Japanese. She loved it. That school drew from an area where the average price of homes was $300,000. For the St. Louis area in the late 80's that was affluent. The great majority of schools don't have the blessing of that kind of demographic.

gf,

I really do not want to get in this one, but I cannot keep my mouth shut (fingers still) so I am going to say this and then I am going to runlikehell.

That statement from you I quoted herein -- I absolutely agree.

And when kids have little, or nothing, at home, maybe their public school classes should be cut in half and cut in half again. -- Talk about one heck of a return on an investment.

Waterfalls and fountains? ::

And, let me guess. Across town the only water that was flowing was coming in through a hole in the roof.

-just could not stay out of it. But I will speak of it no more.

Boomer

[villages07]

GF,

This was in another thread, but, here's the answer on Villages charter school enrollment criteria:

Unlike traditional county schools, our enrollment criteria are based upon one of the parents/guardians/ place of employment rather than geographic address of their home.

Qualifying Employment

Employment is verified on each new applicant, and will be verified on a quarterly basis for all enrolled students.

Category I - Direct employee of The Villages

Category II -Employee of a Direct Sub-Contractor of The Villages. Employee must receive a W-2 form from the sub-contractor. Sub-Contractor's who are paid by residents or businesses of The Villages do not qualify. Sub-Contractor's who do not have a direct contract with The Villages do not qualify.

Category III-Employee of a business on Villages Property.

Please call the Enrollment Office (352-259-2350) to determine if a business is qualified for enrollment.

Parents who work full-time (40 hours per week) are given priority over parents who work part-time (less than 40 hours per week).

[gfmucci]

Originally Posted by Boomer BeBack

And, let me guess.* Across town the only water that was flowing was coming in through a hole in the roof.

This was literally true of some "in-City" schools.* Within the City of St. Louis, the schools were so bad (back then - not sure if things have changed) that only childless couples and the poor lived in "the City" so as not to subject kids to that school district.* All others who had any resources sought the suburban school districts, and only the most affluent areas had really good ones.*

And the City of St. Louis is not at all the exception among large cities. This again leads me to believe the only really good mega-schools are the ones with upper middle class constituents which are a small percentage of the total public schools.

[Sidney Lanier]

I've dealt with huge high schools and small ones. I attended a high school of 5,000 students and got enough of a quality education to qualify for a free college education which was outstanding AND which served 8,000 full-time students (plus thousands of part-timers). At one time I worked for a centralized cooperative educational system that brought small numbers of students from small districts together to form larger classes and settings in order to provide more comprehensive services.

IMHO, it's not the size of the school that's as much of an issue as social factors. I absolutely agree with the quote from Daniel Patrick Moynihan ("If an unfriendly foreign power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war. As it stands, we have allowed this to happen to ourselves"), who besides being the senator from New York also devoted a considerable portion of his life to education. And that quote was a quarter century ago; does anything believe that things have improved since then?

I might get 'yelled at' for saying this, and I know I'm generalizing, but I believe that the major issue in no matter what size schoo--large or small--is that students come unprepared to learn, parental support of their kids AND of their kids' schools is absent, and even worse, in a society that has grown increasingly hostile and belligerent in many ways, too many parents are not responsible when it comes to discipline (and I don't mean punishment when I say discipline...). When I was in school, if I did something that resulted in my being taken to task, you can bet that when I got home I'd be taken to task again.

Gone are the days.... I have a close friend who says that the only good thing about the 'good old days' is that they're gone. I don't agree; there was a lot of good in those good old days!

[graciegirl]

I might get 'yelled at' for saying this, and I know I'm generalizing, but I believe that the major issue in no matter what size schoo--large or small--is that students come unprepared to learn, parental support of their kids AND of their kids' schools is absent, and even worse, in a society that has grown increasingly hostile and belligerent in many ways, too many parents are not responsible when it comes to discipline (and I don't mean punishment when I say discipline...). When I was in school, if I did something that resulted in my being taken to task, you can bet that when I got home I'd be taken to task again.

Gone are the days.... I have a close friend who says that the only good thing about the 'good old days' is that they're gone. I don't agree; there was a lot of good in those good old days!
[/quote]


Good for you Sidney Lanier, your education is obvious!! I agree whole heartedly with your views and I am so fortunate that my children raised their children the way they were raised and the way we were raised. My dad was one of nine children whose parents came from Bavaria for a better life. I am proud to say that the descendants of those nine have never been in trouble with the law and all have raised children and grandchildren who are good solid citizens. It is hard work being a good parent, but the rewards are wonderful. People tell you how "lucky" you are!

[Sidney Lanier]

Luck may be a small piece of it; the rest is parental and societal responsibility. We old coots can look back and see (and in some cases cringe) at the changes, and there is little we can do about it at this point when it comes to future generations....

[graciegirl]

As anyone who has read my postings on this thread can see, it is intensely important in my values to support the youth of the future and their education. It is very easy to support ones grandchildren and last night we attended our fourth awards banquet for the Spark, a 78 page full color glossy news magazine produced every six weeks by the Lakota East High School Journalism Department. It has won its sixth National School Publications Association Pacemaker Award in ten years. It is given to the top student publications in the country and is often called the Pulitzer Prize of student publications. The Spark gets no monetary support from the school system, and raises and disperses the $37.000 plus budjet by itself. Probably because of that, the school system allows it to handle intense subjects. (Diversity, immigration, depression, drugs etc.)

The main reason that this publication is successful is obvious. We ate dinner, We. being an estimated 400 plus kids and their family members, who paid for their own meal, and then we sat for five and one half hours while the advisor, teacher, Dean Hume gave out awards. He presented an award to each person in the entire program and without notes, he talked about each one, and it was obvious he knew each one, and he praised them personally. He knew about their life outside Spark, their other awards, their enthusiasms and yes sometimes he just went on about their being quiet and sweet and diligent. I know that each kid believed in his or her heart that they were his favorite.

The superintendent of schools was there and many of the principals. Lakota graduates almost 800 students from this high school next Saturday. (There are two, the same size in the district.) Yes it is an affluent school district, but how does an area get affluent? Usually most people living in the school district do not inherit money, but work for it.

I was proud of our granddaughter, the managing editor, but personally know that she has worked at the Spark lab late into the night each week it goes to press and on most weekends too.

I was just plain proud and happy last night. Proud of the fledgling farm school district that we moved into 30 some years ago, proud of the parents and grandparents who worked hard to make it better.

There is a lot good with a lot of large Public Schools.

Thank you for listening.

Please google Lakota East Spark.

[Lil Dancer]

Gracie, that was very moving. Congratulations to your granddaughter, and thank you for sharing!