[courtyard]

"If no one had guns"...Well, assuming that we are still on Earth, not that soft pink wonderland of the "Idealists", People would be killing each other with spears, or arrows or rocks, and the old, that is most of us, being "not what we were' at hand to hand combat, would be the first to go to the wall.

[twinklesweep]

Originally Posted by Figmo Bohica

This is what happens when only the criminals have guns.

Curious if the army sergeant in Afghanistan who left his base, broke into nearby civilian homes, and murdered 16 people, 9 of them children, is a "criminal" or a "terrorist." Or is this going be played out as "mental illness"? Opinions, please?

We in North America are to a great extent not aware of the number of attacks like this happening in Europe, especially in many parts of France, in Sweden (Malmo), and other places, mainly because the media here don't focus on it. BBC News and CNN tell us more about it--if we listen. But these attacks ARE happening, and they are just as tragic as this incident. There is just no answer for children whose lives are stolen from them, and for their families who must forever live with this.

[twinklesweep]

Originally Posted by RichieLion

Is everybody so hard headed that no opinions can be swayed? I'm not sure why you think that.

I wouldnt say "everybody," but I believe that many (most?) people live by the saying "Don't confuse me with the facts. My mind is already made up."

[DAnder2829]

The shooting in France is a tragedy. However, so is the Trayvon Martin shooting. To think that this still happens in our country, where an AfroAmerican male can't go to a convenience store outside his neighborhood is crazy. The Florida law needs to be changed.

[Figmo Bohica]

Originally Posted by DAnder2829

The shooting in France is a tragedy. However, so is the Trayvon Martin shooting. To think that this still happens in our country, where an AfroAmerican male can't go to a convenience store outside his neighborhood is crazy. The Florida law needs to be changed.

There is nothing wrong with the Florida Law, what the problem is, is that to many people get CWLs and think that they are defacto police officers. The CWL and the Castle Doc Law are to protect the individual or your family from harm. The vast majority of the time the best defensive weapon that you have as a private citizen is your cell phone.

The person in question should have retreated, called the police and let them handle the situation, instead of what he did. I do believe that charges will be brought against this man. What you have to remember is that only one story will be told about what happened and it will come down to, "The Reasonable Man Clause" of the law, what would a reasonable person done in the same situation. All subjective.

Retreat is always better for everyone and will save you lots of heart ache and money. Nothing that I own is worth taking someone life for, unless they are attacking me or my family in my home or car to cause great bodily harm. When criminals know that you are home and break in, they are coming in to hurt you not just steal from you. Violent home invasions are done to hurt the occupant of the building, not just to take something.

I know that you will never change your mind about firearms or protecting yourself, but if you do some research on what the police are required to do, you will find that your protection is your responsibility. That has been stated by the SCOTUS more than once. We are very fortunate here in TV as the three county sheriff's are very proactive in preventing crime, as the majority of police organizations are historical gathering organizations, IE., they come after the crime and attempt to find the perpatator and bring that person to justice.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by DAnder2829

The shooting in France is a tragedy. However, so is the Trayvon Martin shooting. To think that this still happens in our country, where an AfroAmerican male can't go to a convenience store outside his neighborhood is crazy. The Florida law needs to be changed.

This is not just Florida. Do you remember when several police officers shot Amadou Diallo FORTY-TWO times as went to unlock his house door after returning from work? There was barely a body left. . . .

[twinklesweep]

Originally Posted by twinklesweep

Curious if the army sergeant in Afghanistan who left his base, broke into nearby civilian homes, and murdered 16 people, 9 of them children, is a "criminal" or a "terrorist." Or is this going be played out as "mental illness"? Opinions, please?

We in North America are to a great extent not aware of the number of attacks like this happening in Europe, especially in many parts of France, in Sweden (Malmo), and other places, mainly because the media here don't focus on it. BBC News and CNN tell us more about it--if we listen. But these attacks ARE happening, and they are just as tragic as this incident. There is just no answer for children whose lives are stolen from them, and for their families who must forever live with this.

It seems almost silly to me that I am quoting myself. However, I just received the following in an email which started circulating in Europe and focuses not on weapons but on attitudes. I did check Snopes on this, as I do on all stories like this, and all it says is that it did NOT originate from Senator Lieberman. It does NOT say that it is not real! As I said, we do not get the full news picture here in the U.S., and if what the email says, even in France, where the shooting took place that started this thread, they do not circulate the full picture. For what it's worth, this will at least bring what is happening to our attention.

I also note that no one answered my request for opinions about whether the army sergeant who killed the civilians in Afghanistan should be considered a "criminal" or a "terrorist" -- or maybe something else?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Very bad news from the Jewish community in France - PLEASE read and SEND....

I received this email today and was asked toforward it on. please read!

Once again, the real news in France is conveniently not being reported as it should.

To give you an idea of what's going on in that country where there are now between 5 and 6 million Muslims and about 600,000 Jews, here is an E-mail that came from a Jew living in France ..

Please read! "Will the world say nothing - again - as it did in Hitler's time?" He writes: "I AM A JEW -- therefore I am forwarding this to everyone on all my e-mail lists. I will not sit back and do nothing.

Nowhere have the flames of anti-Semitism burned more furiously than in France ..
1. In Lyon , a car was rammed into a synagogue and set on fire.
2. In Montpellier , the Jewish religious center was firebombed;
3. so were synagogues in Strasbourg and Marseilles ;
4. so was a Jewish school in Creteil - all recently.
5. A Jewish sports club in Toulouse was attacked with Molotov cocktails
6. and on the statue of Alfred Dreyfus, in Paris , the words 'Dirty Jew' were painted.
7. In Bondy, 15 men beat up members of a Jewish football team with sticks and metal bars.
8. The bus that takes Jewish children to school in Aubervilliers has been attacked three times in the last 14 months.
9. According to the Police, metropolitan Paris has seen 10 to 12 anti-Jewish incidents PER DAY in the past 30 days.
10. Walls in Jewish neighborhoods have been defaced with slogans proclaiming 'Jews to the gas chambers' and 'Death to the Jews.'
11. A gunman opened fire on a kosher butcher's shop (and, of course, the butcher) inToulouse, France
12. A Jewish couple in their 20's were beaten up by five men in Villeurbanne , France (the woman was pregnant).
13. A Jewish school was broken into and vandalized in Sarcelles , France . This was just in the past week.

So I call on you, whether you are a fellow Jew, a friend, or merely a person with the capacity and desire to distinguish decency from depravity, to do - at least - these three simple things:

First, care enough to stay informed. Don't ever let yourself become deluded into thinking that this is not your fight.

I remind you of what Pastor Neimoller said in World War II:

First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up, because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.

Second, boycott France and French products. Only the Arab countries are more toxically anti-Semitic and, unlike them, France exports more than just oil and hatred. So boycott their wines and their perfumes. Boycott their clothes and their foodstuffs. Boycott their movies. Definitely boycott their shores. If we are resolved we can exert amazing pressure and, whatever else we may know about the French, we most certainly know that they are like a cobweb in a hurricane in the face of well-directed pressure.

Third, send this along to your family, your friends, and your co-workers. Think of all of the people of good conscience that you know and let them know that you - and the people that you care about - need their help.

The number one bestselling book in France is 'September 11: The Frightening Fraud' which argues that no plane ever hit the Pentagon!

PLEASE PASS THIS ON. LETS NOT HISTORY REPEAT ITSELF! THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME!

[Figmo Bohica]

Originally Posted by twinklesweep

I also note that no one answered my request for opinions about whether the army sergeant who killed the civilians in Afghanistan should be considered a "criminal" or a "terrorist" -- or maybe something else?

Have you ever been in combat? Have you served four tours of duty in a combat zone? Until all the evidence surrounding this case is known, I would have no idea what to call this sergeant, do you?

[Taltarzac725]

There was another one of these shootings at a Christian school in Oakland, CA today.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/crime-...-classr/nMHdf/

I have been working on arming people with access to better information about victim services since about 1992-- preventive and pro-active as well after the fact-- but cannot see what could be done to stop a determined gunman like in this situation.

Any ideas??

I used to live in this area of the country from 1984-1986 and then from late 1991 through 1996 or so. I wrote some politicians about shootings that happened in the Bay Area during the time I was there and would often just get the run around. This would be from politicians of both parties-- Democrats and Republicans.

Not sure how much one voice though can really get done.

[CMANN]

Originally Posted by Bogie Shooter

What if nobody had guns?

To even think such a thought out loud you don't understand reality. IMHO

[CMANN]

Originally Posted by BarryRX

Please let's not turn this thread into yet another "gun" argument. This is a terrible act of terrorism. Often these fanatics use bombs....this time it was a gun. But this thread should be about so much more than my beliefs or your beliefs about guns. (btw, I suspect that we have similar views on the subject, it's just that this is not the thread for it).

Figmo didn't start it.

[CMANN]

Originally Posted by DAnder2829

The shooting in France is a tragedy. However, so is the Trayvon Martin shooting. To think that this still happens in our country, where an AfroAmerican male can't go to a convenience store outside his neighborhood is crazy. The Florida law needs to be changed.

How do you know that the Trayvon Martin shooting was a tragedy and not a lucky person who survived by shooting his assailant? YOU DON'T!

[CMANN]

Originally Posted by Figmo Bohica

There is nothing wrong with the Florida Law, what the problem is, is that to many people get CWLs and think that they are defacto police officers. The CWL and the Castle Doc Law are to protect the individual or your family from harm. The vast majority of the time the best defensive weapon that you have as a private citizen is your cell phone.

The person in question should have retreated, called the police and let them handle the situation, instead of what he did. I do believe that charges will be brought against this man. What you have to remember is that only one story will be told about what happened and it will come down to, "The Reasonable Man Clause" of the law, what would a reasonable person done in the same situation. All subjective.

Retreat is always better for everyone and will save you lots of heart ache and money. Nothing that I own is worth taking someone life for, unless they are attacking me or my family in my home or car to cause great bodily harm. When criminals know that you are home and break in, they are coming in to hurt you not just steal from you. Violent home invasions are done to hurt the occupant of the building, not just to take something.

I know that you will never change your mind about firearms or protecting yourself, but if you do some research on what the police are required to do, you will find that your protection is your responsibility. That has been stated by the SCOTUS more than once. We are very fortunate here in TV as the three county sheriff's are very proactive in preventing crime, as the majority of police organizations are historical gathering organizations, IE., they come after the crime and attempt to find the perpatator and bring that person to justice.

Do we not report suspicious people on in our neighborhood?

[Figmo Bohica]

Originally Posted by CMANN

Do we not report suspicious people on in our neighborhood?

Don't understand you satement. But to answer that question, yes I would and if told not to follow the individual, I would not follow, but follow the instructions of the 911 operator.