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  #16  
Old 03-26-2015, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Madelaine Amee View Post
According to a report I read this morning, when the first pilot left the cockpit someone else should have replaced him for the time he was gone!

I can only imagine the horror the passengers went through in seeing a pilot trying to get into the cockpit and knowing something was very very wrong.
My understanding is that that is an FAA rule but it's not the rule in Europe. Some European airlines have the rule in place voluntarily but this one doesn't.
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  #17  
Old 03-26-2015, 09:57 PM
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Western PA, Marietta GA, finally TV....

Last edited by SouthOfTheBorder; 03-27-2015 at 04:47 AM.
  #18  
Old 03-27-2015, 06:40 AM
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///
I thought so too.

Sometimes I can't believe what I read here.

May they rest in peace and God help their families. A terrible accident is horrible. To kill innocents is beyond what anyone can understand and forgive.
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  #19  
Old 03-27-2015, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by kcrazorbackfan View Post
From what I've read, everything was normal with the conversation between the pilot and co-pilot before this happened, nothing out of the ordinary, so there was no sign of mental instability with the co-pilot.

With fewer flights nowadays, most flights are so crowded with passengers that the airlines probably don't want to give up any seats for extra Air Marshals.

I am praying that this is not the start of a new form of worldwide terrorism.
They will have to go to a two person rule for those always in the cockpit. And, insist that they violate the privacy of air crews to make sure that some kind of conspiracy involving two or more people does not come into play as in some kind of ISIS/ISIL or similar kind of terrorist scenario.

Maybe nosier passengers is also in order like reporting any suspicious behavior ASAP in private to some of the crew members who do not seem suspicious.

I am not afraid to fly as any other mode of transport would be more dangerous except maybe for trains and when you have a limited amount of time to visit due to other factors-- like posting on TOTV-- trains may not be an option.

Anyone who knows me well should be aware of how much importance I place on educating people about their rights and responsibilities and fighting to assert these through tax payer resources especially libraries and sheriffs' offices. ( My 224 613 Project) The Internet is also a great tool for this. Look at resources put out by pilot associations, FAA rules, as well as your political representatives. If you have some good ideas, spread them around. Cameras on planes especially those of passengers might be tools for evidence of what happened. Heard this mentioned on ABC NEWS with David Muir last night about cameras in the cock pit when Muir was talking with aviation consultant John Nance.

I have always liked being around Seniors as they have so much experiences with dealing with life and usually are quick to give advice about how things might be improved. There must be very seasoned travelers, former pilots, etc. on TOTV. Hope they can put in some insightful ideas about what might be done.
  #20  
Old 03-27-2015, 04:51 PM
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There must be very seasoned travelers, former pilots, etc. on TOTV. Hope they can put in some insightful ideas about what might be done.
If someone is crazy and intent on killing, especially a pilot, it cannot be stopped as long as he/she has access to the cockpit and controls. Period. This is why many cockpits are defended with lethal force.

I'll conservatively say that an airline traveling at cruise speed (500-600 mph) can be completely DESTROYED in about 3 SECONDS. That's right, a whopping 3 seconds to kill everyone aboard. Full input and reversal of the elevator or rudder at cruise speed will over-stress the airframe and result in an inflight breakup in a matter of seconds.

When you stop to think about it, we all place our lives in strangers hands nearly every day. When you pass oncoming traffic head-on without a barrier, you trust that the approaching driver will not intentionally swerve into your path. When you have surgery you trust many people from nurses, surgeons, anesthesiologists to all do their jobs professionally and without malice. We trust restaurant staff that they follow proper food handling protocols to prevent illness and death. We trust engineers and construction crews to properly design and build the buildings we enter daily. How about those ELECTRICAL lights in swimming pools?

Establishing some ground-based safety monitor to prevent this scenario by datalinking flight commands to airborne aircraft also opens up avenues for hacking and hijacking (i.e., Iran hacked and "stole" one of our military drones.)

Lots of questions, but unfortunately no easy answers.

(Boeing 767 Captain)
  #21  
Old 03-27-2015, 05:16 PM
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This just get worse and worse for Lufthansa. Today's news said the co-pilot was removed from duty by a physician for unknown reasons (possibly mental problems) and declared unfit to fly, but nobody notified the airline.

It defies common sense that anyone would rely on the patient being treated for possible mental problems to notify the carrier and take himself off duty.

The medical professional who treated him must feel terrible and procedures will probably change soon, but 150 innocent people are dead.

Last edited by janmcn; 03-27-2015 at 05:57 PM.
  #22  
Old 03-28-2015, 03:57 AM
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This just get worse and worse for Lufthansa. Today's news said the co-pilot was removed from duty by a physician for unknown reasons (possibly mental problems) and declared unfit to fly, but nobody notified the airline.

It defies common sense that anyone would rely on the patient being treated for possible mental problems to notify the carrier and take himself off duty.

The medical professional who treated him must feel terrible and procedures will probably change soon, but 150 innocent people are dead.
We will probably be getting some lessons in international tort law from this tragedy.
  #23  
Old 03-28-2015, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by janmcn View Post
This just get worse and worse for Lufthansa. Today's news said the co-pilot was removed from duty by a physician for unknown reasons (possibly mental problems) and declared unfit to fly, but nobody notified the airline.

It defies common sense that anyone would rely on the patient being treated for possible mental problems to notify the carrier and take himself off duty.

The medical professional who treated him must feel terrible and procedures will probably change soon, but 150 innocent people are dead.
That's just sad
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  #24  
Old 03-28-2015, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by janmcn View Post
This just get worse and worse for Lufthansa. Today's news said the co-pilot was removed from duty by a physician for unknown reasons (possibly mental problems) and declared unfit to fly, but nobody notified the airline.

It defies common sense that anyone would rely on the patient being treated for possible mental problems to notify the carrier and take himself off duty.

The medical professional who treated him must feel terrible and procedures will probably change soon, but 150 innocent people are dead.
I don't know what the rules are for professionals who know a patient could be dangerous to himself and others, but in some ways it must be like the sanctity of the confessional, or the rights of a lawyer, I am sure. I wondered about that last night too. I wondered about the doctors who treated the young man who shot the little children in Connecticut.

Sometimes we cannot cover all possible tragedies with laws.

I pray for the families, but can't find the words to ask for comfort. How can they ever be comforted? Dear God, the sadness this world holds.
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  #25  
Old 03-28-2015, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janmcn View Post
This just get worse and worse for Lufthansa. Today's news said the co-pilot was removed from duty by a physician for unknown reasons (possibly mental problems) and declared unfit to fly, but nobody notified the airline.

It defies common sense that anyone would rely on the patient being treated for possible mental problems to notify the carrier and take himself off duty.

The medical professional who treated him must feel terrible and procedures will probably change soon, but 150 innocent people are dead.
I think that several posters have offered highly intelligent suggestions as to cockpit access and 'single occupancy' being forbidden.

There is another area that needs attention and change and that is the privacy laws barring doctors, including psychiatrists, from notifying air lines and other public carriers of a potential for danger given the patient's job and condition.

What good is giving a mentally ill person a note saying he or she is 'unfit to fly a jet plane?' I am not blaming the doctors - God knows they are up to their eyeballs in malpractice insurance costs and hovering trial lawyers.

The solution is to remove that prohibition, and let common sense and the innocent passengers live.

The privacy wall is good until it is bad, dangerous and nonsensical. The world found about about Mr. Lubitz' problem anyway, but in a devastating and preventable way.

There has been case law already in the US tempering the 'privacy laws' in cases where a patient tells a psychiatrist he is going to kill someone. Google "Tarasoff case" in California. No one should try to say that the Tarasoff case is different. The trained psychiatrist (and most normal people) know that the real possibility of self harm and harm to others exists, whether vocalized or not, in certain medical conditions.

I pray for those poor innocent families. This should not happen to anyone.
  #26  
Old 03-28-2015, 10:33 AM
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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/wo...id=tw-bna&_r=1


The New York Times is now reporting that the Duseldorf University Hospital treated Lubitz Andreas for eye problems that could have possibly ended his flying career. Yesterday the hospital also denied treating him for any mental problems. They had evaluated him as recently as March 10.
  #27  
Old 03-28-2015, 10:47 AM
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This is all horrible turn of events, but:

- refreshing that details of this event were made public so quickly
- that the Lufthansa CEO faced the press shortly after the event
- some Carriers made the change to 2-in-cockpit so rapidly
- All Carriers have this potential risk and the industry must determine remedy

Unfortunately a 'remedy' will never be 100%, as a person hellbent on destruction will find a way.

And, the airline industry may limit liability by closing system holes -BUT- what about other transportation fields such as trains, buses, etc. If a crazed determined individual wants to go out with a flair and take multitudes with them...

Thankfully this pilot did not take the plane into a large building in France/Germany and multiply the angst.
  #28  
Old 03-28-2015, 11:20 AM
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This is all horrible turn of events, but:

- refreshing that details of this event were made public so quickly
- that the Lufthansa CEO faced the press shortly after the event
- some Carriers made the change to 2-in-cockpit so rapidly
- All Carriers have this potential risk and the industry must determine remedy

Unfortunately a 'remedy' will never be 100%, as a person hellbent on destruction will find a way.

And, the airline industry may limit liability by closing system holes -BUT- what about other transportation fields such as trains, buses, etc. If a crazed determined individual wants to go out with a flair and take multitudes with them...

Thankfully this pilot did not take the plane into a large building in France/Germany and multiply the angst.
Thank heavens that people with the means and opportunity to do great damage to others never act on any idea to do so.

I will watch with interest if we ever find out why this man was driven to do this. There is a problem when talking about the mentally ill as there are millions of people fighting depression every day and who probably also have ideas of suicide. They never act on these though. And then there is the field of psychiatry itself. I wish that psychiatry were a more exact science. It still seems like more an art and also one which evil cliques can easily manipulate for their own nefarious ends. There does not seem to be an easy answers in all this. The abuse of psychiatry does happen in democratic countries but has been a huge problem in totalitarian ones where there are no checks and balances in place. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2800147/

Last edited by Taltarzac725; 03-29-2015 at 12:09 PM.
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