Casey - Innocent until proven guilty?

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  #211  
Old 06-19-2011, 03:14 PM
PennBF PennBF is offline
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Lightbulb Mistrial or Reversal

She wasn't arrested, why read her the Miranda, 2.the judge under this circumstance has every right to have a court order, in order to keep all gamesmanship out of the trial is within his jurisdiction and certainly keeps the trial timely...3.How was the defense restricted? 4, I missed the overlay, was the jury privy to this?, 5,...They stipulated other decisions that allowed family to be present during previous testimonies, I'll admit this was strange..I won't be surprised if this will be tied up in court for many many years on appeal....I appreciate your insite as an attorney but still question some of your comments but that is what makes the world go 'round! IMHO

In respoinse to the answer to my note on mistrial, appeal reversal: Comments above:
1. As the retired sheriff of Dade/Miami County said she should have been
mirandized the moment they put her in the back seat of a squad car. Further
as Harvard Professor Dershish (Spelling of name?) said when they put her in a room with 2 deputy sheriff's + the Detective and they started to ask questions including the one by the Detective, "Are you going to stay with the story you just told" she had to be Mirandized. She was not and per both this is a serious violation and basis for a mistrial.
2. I was involved in a trial in the Federal Building in NYC when a Federal Judge said to the cross exam attorney that he must provide his questions
ahead of time.The ex US Attorney General who was, sitting next to me said that is cause for a mistrial. The judge realizing he made an error corrected it and said he was only suggesting it and it was not a court order. To illustrate the trick that was played on this..The State did not raise this in a deposition as they wanted to have it testified in court and the expert did. When the defense started to raise a question, the State said it was not in the original opinion submitted by the expert. This was a trick by the State and unfortuntely the Defense walked into it. How could the expert expect to put it in a report if it was not a problem in a deposition. The trick was not by the defense but rather by the State and they got away with it.
3. This is purely subjective but I believe there is a huge imbalance between how many sustained objections he approved for the state vs the defense. I am not sure how strong this is for a mistrial but it appears to be a judicial
leaning to the State. We should remember the Judge was a "Prosecutor"!!!
4. Yes, it was shown to the jury and it was totally out of line since it was
"created evidence" made to look factual.
5. I believe there was a request by the Defense to challenge this in a hearing
and it was rejected.
  #212  
Old 06-19-2011, 07:19 PM
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Default Honestly PennBF don't you think

Baez needs a few more years under his belt before taking on this case that is under the microscope...I know he has been over-ruled at least 4 times as much as the prosecution on objections BUT I find the prosecution more competent...

In regard to Cindy, George and Lee listening to testimony, I'm sure it was stated that on previous cases, it was allowed for families of defendents only!

Regarding Dr. Spitz, between me and you and everyone in TOTV land, do you honestly believe that the good Dr. could not determine the MANNER of death?
Seriously!
  #213  
Old 06-19-2011, 09:02 PM
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Default Was going to stop

I was honestly going to stop posting on this subject but decided to add one more. The Comments:
"]Baez needs a few more years under his belt before taking on this case that is under the microscope...I know he has been over-ruled at least 4 times as much as the prosecution on objections BUT I find the prosecution more competent
Comment: There are a number of reasons an attorney will object to a question. Some of which are: (a) To alert the witness to really think the
answer out, (b) to break any rhythm that the other attorney may have set.
There are attempt to set a rhythm so when it is broken the opposing attorney knows the witness is uncomfortable with the question and will come
back to it, etc.etc.(c) because they really object to the question. My point is that being over-ruled is not just a sign of lacking compentency but can be
a good technique when there is cross examinations.

"In regard to Cindy, George and Lee listening to testimony, I'm sure it was stated that on previous cases, it was allowed for families of defendents only!"
Comment: I am astonished that possible witness's can sit in on testimony
as it poison's the whole concept of unvarnished truthful testimony. If you
know what has been said by other witness's you have to be influenced as to
what you will testify to. In this case the parents sitting in may be significant
character's in the case and should never be allowed in the court while any
testimony is being heard. Remember it is alleged that they have their own
attorney who is only looking out for thier interests.


"Regarding Dr. Spitz, between me and you and everyone in TOTV land, do you honestly believe that the good Dr. could not determine the MANNER of death?"Seriously[COLOR=

Comments: I absolutely believe that (a) he testified truthfully as his reputation is critical to him as it reprents his life's work. (b) I absolutely
believe the manner and cause of death cannot be determined. Not only
based on his testimony but those of other experts.
  #214  
Old 06-19-2011, 09:30 PM
whartonjelly whartonjelly is offline
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I think that too much money is being wasted. Casey has a brain that is not wired right.They should just put her a way in a mental hospital forever. I believe if anyhone gets in her way again , she is capable of harming people. Would you want her living at your house? She was born this way. No one is to blame. It is possible to have a doctor , lawyer, writer, priest and a mass murderer from the same set of parents. It just is. Just my opinion so far.
  #215  
Old 06-20-2011, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whartonjelly View Post
I think that too much money is being wasted. Casey has a brain that is not wired right.They should just put her a way in a mental hospital forever. I believe if anyhone gets in her way again , she is capable of harming people. Would you want her living at your house? She was born this way. No one is to blame. It is possible to have a doctor , lawyer, writer, priest and a mass murderer from the same set of parents. It just is. Just my opinion so far.
I tend to agree with you, whartonjelly. From what I have heard and read Cindy and George aren't exactly "functional" people. Apparently, George must have a problem with anger and self control or he wouldn't have pushed his father through a plate glass window a few years back. I agree that Casey was either born with a deficiency in her brain or her parents created this monster by spoiling her and/or abusing her. There are all kinds of abuse that can seriously harm and stunt the normal growth and maturity of a child. If Casey killed her child in the way that the prosecution seems to feel that she did, she is indeed sick. IF she WAS born this way I feel sorry for her. If the environment in the Anthony home was truly horrible she could also have learned to disassociate early on and live in another reality. If she truly suffered as a child in that home I feel sorry for her. What makes me the most sad is that her parents apparently never saw the signs that their daughter was a psycopath. I realize that Casey is probably the one who comitted this horrendous crime, but IF there was abuse, sexual or otherwise, and if in fact they created this monster, the parents bear some of the shame and responsibility for the death of this child. Unless a child is born with a mental defect that could turn him or her into an adult killer the cause can almost always be traced to childhood abuse. I am withholding an opinion as to whether or not George sexually abused Casey. When he was on the stand and asked if he did, he wasn't very convincing in his answer. Most pedophiles lie about the abuse they inflict on a child. It's possible that Casey is also a victim in all of this. It's also possible that we will never know the truth as to HOW this child died or WHY she died. Denial is a powerful coping mechanism that allows people to NOT deal with serious emotional issues. I'm wondering if this whole family has been immersed in deep denial for so long that they didn't even see that "the Emperor was wearing no clothes"?
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  #216  
Old 06-20-2011, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PennBF View Post
.....In my opinion this Dr. was well prepared, was very knowledgeable and acted extremely well on the witness stand.
It is interesting that every analyst I have seen on TV or read about all agree he was very powerful for the defense.....
Well, Channel 9s trial specialist, who is a recognized practicing attorney for over 33 years and is a former prosecutor, has a different opinion of the effectiveness of Dr. Spitzs testimony on Saturday. Heres a link to his thoughts:

http://www.wftv.com/video/28281980/index.html

While I have formed an opinion on this case based on the prosecutions evidence and their witnesss testimonies, I will reserve my final verdict until the defense rests it case and the final arguments have been made.

But the defense will need to come up with something more than what I have seen so far from their witnesses.
  #217  
Old 06-20-2011, 04:37 PM
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Default Thanks EdVinMass

I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one that witnessed opinions from pundits that felt that the defense is playing games!...I'm also reserving my conclusion until the end...I do think that Dr. Spitz was upset that he was NOT allowed to participate in the original autopsy, thereby making his cross less than believable!



Quote:
Originally Posted by EdVinMass View Post
Well, Channel 9s trial specialist, who is a recognized practicing attorney for over 33 years and is a former prosecutor, has a different opinion of the effectiveness of Dr. Spitzs testimony on Saturday. Heres a link to his thoughts:

http://www.wftv.com/video/28281980/index.html

While I have formed an opinion on this case based on the prosecutions evidence and their witnesss testimonies, I will reserve my final verdict until the defense rests it case and the final arguments have been made.

But the defense will need to come up with something more than what I have seen so far from their witnesses.
  #218  
Old 06-20-2011, 06:23 PM
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Lightbulb Good Input VillageFlorida

I agree with most of the comments written by "VillagesFlorida". They are
pretty rationale. Anyone who is a Theryapist or has evey experienced
or read about "pedophiles" would understand the terrible impact it can
have on a child and how it could very easily lead to a "Disassociative
Disorder". It is almost like a "dual personality" caused by childhood abuse.
Most experienced Theryapists recognize and are familiar with the disorder and how it can be a result from sexual abuse as a child.
It is hard if not almost impossible for a normal person to either understand
or accept the disorder since they have either (a) not studied the disease or
(b) were not sexually abused as a child. There has been an accusation that the father sexually abused her. If that is the case then it could lead to
all sorts of mental disorders and problems. The philosophical question is how
much is the victim responsible and is further punishment called for or should
there be some empathy and treatment. As the famous psychiatrist said
when interviewed on TV, she may actually be the victim??
  #219  
Old 06-20-2011, 07:00 PM
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To quote a portion of the above post:

The philosophical question is how
much is the victim responsible and is further punishment called for or should
there be some empathy and treatment. As the famous psychiatrist said
when interviewed on TV, she may actually be the victim??[/QUOTE]

Well, the second "victim" in this case, assuming that Casey WAS abused, is responsible, or seemingly so at this point. I'm not sure that being a psycopath will keep her from being punished. She more than likely, if found guilty of "something", will spend the rest of her life in prison. I would not feel comfortable knowing that she is out in society, should she be aquitted. She has no conscience and isn't capable of living by the same rules that we do. She IS sick and probably should live out her years in a mental hospital. This is such a sad case in that there may well be two victims here. No human being would ever wish to end up like Casey Anthony. There is no doubt in my mind that a deficiency of some sort, or severe trauma caused her to develop into an empty shell, a true sociopath who is not capable of feeling or caring about her fellow human beings.
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  #220  
Old 06-20-2011, 07:26 PM
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Default Soooo, are we now to assume

that Casey is FINALLY telling us the truth.... about sexual abuse......
..... Have we forgotten about a sweet little 2 year old child that was tossed in the garbage....Oh my, I give up!...Might as well toss Cindy and George and Lee in the garbage also.....Geeeez!
  #221  
Old 06-20-2011, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jebartle View Post
that Casey is FINALLY telling us the truth.... about sexual abuse......
..... Have we forgotten about a sweet little 2 year old child that was tossed in the garbage....Oh my, I give up!...Might as well toss Cindy and George and Lee in the garbage also.....Geeeez!
I said "assuming that Casey was abused". We may never know for sure. What I know for certain is that "something" happened to cause this person to turn into a lying psychopath. I am sorry that the family has to go through this very traumatic event. All I am saying is that no child ends up like Casey Anthony unless there is horrible dysfunction in the family or she was born with a defect in her brain. This girl showed symptoms of psychopathic behavior for some time. She lived with her parents. Why didn't they see this? Denial is a powerful thing.
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  #222  
Old 06-20-2011, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VillagesFlorida View Post
I said "assuming that Casey was abused". We may never know for sure. What I know for certain is that "something" happened to cause this person to turn into a lying psychopath. I am sorry that the family has to go through this very traumatic event. All I am saying is that no child ends up like Casey Anthony unless there is horrible dysfunction in the family or she was born with a defect in her brain. This girl showed symptoms of psychopathic behavior for some time. She lived with her parents. Why didn't they see this? Denial is a powerful thing.
Not having watched the trial, I don't know whether she has been diagnosed with any mental defect or whether she has even been psychologically evaluated. However, I have read that psychopaths are masters at gaining sympathy and going undetected.

If she should not be punished and/or held criminally responsible in the event the jury decides that she committed homicide (of any degree), should all psychopaths go unpunished for heinous crimes? Should all sexual abuse victims?
  #223  
Old 06-20-2011, 09:38 PM
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Not having watched the trial, I don't know whether she has been diagnosed with any mental defect or whether she has even been psychologically evaluated. However, I have read that psychopaths are masters at gaining sympathy and going undetected.

If she should not be punished and/or held criminally responsible in the event the jury decides that she committed homicide (of any degree), should all psychopaths go unpunished for heinous crimes? Should all sexual abuse victims?
No! Nothing excuses a "heinous" crime. All I am saying is that there is a reason why Casey is the way she is....perhaps in the end there will be an official diagnosis by someone skilled in these kinds of illnesses. An explanation as to why she is the way she is is not an excuse, but it might shed some light on WHY she did what she did. She DOES need to be locked up somewhere where she can never kill anyone else. I picture her in solitary confinement where she will have a very long time to contemplate what she has done. Lots of us were abandoned as children and we were abused, sexually and in other ways. WE didn't turn out to be killers. Was it sexual abuse that made Casey disassociate from reality? Who knows? I know that it CAN happen. If she takes the stand and says as much, will any of us believe her after so many lies? Probably not.
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  #224  
Old 06-20-2011, 09:43 PM
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Default Not Unpunished

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pturner View Post
Not having watched the trial, I don't know whether she has been diagnosed with any mental defect or whether she has even been psychologically evaluated. However, I have read that psychopaths are masters at gaining sympathy and going undetected.

If she should not be punished and/or held criminally responsible in the event the jury decides that she committed homicide (of any degree), should all psychopaths go unpunished for heinous crimes? Should all sexual abuse victims?
It doesn't appear anyone here thinks she should go unpunished. Rather, it's just a question of what is an appropriate punishment other than the death penalty. I, for one, do not think this warrants the death penalty but do think she is criminally responsible in some capacity.

I don't think, unless something changes drastically (and I don't see that happening), the truth will ever be known. The only absolute truth in this whole thing is that a child is dead. IMO, Casey should be put away somewhere for the rest of her days. I can't see her ever having the ability to be a viable contributor to society.

If the death penalty were to be consistently applied for extreme stupidity, lying, manipulation, etc., death row could not hold them all. With all the available drugs out there, both prescription and OTC, what's with the chloroform? Way too much trouble to concoct and super-super-stupid. Surely there were drugs readily available in that house that she could have "accidentally gotten into"...little ones do it all the time.
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  #225  
Old 06-21-2011, 07:09 AM
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Question Concern

A major concern I would have at this point is that so many have convicted her without hearing the defense? She may be a "liar", she may be a
sociopath, and the evidence may be 99% against her but there is still 1% that has not been said and I for one don't believe she should be hung before she has had a chance to defend herself. I do not believe in a "rush to judgement" !!
Many have hung her without so much as a word of defense. This is a capital case and therefore deserves all the justice system can provide.
If she is judged to be mentally unbalanced then I agree she should be placed in a secure mental institution as it is a well know fact that there is no
cure for a "sociopath". There is a great book titled "The Sociopath Next Door" which was written by a Psychiatrist at Harvard who spent he life studying sociopaths. I would recommend it as a good research tool for those who are interested.
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