Casey - Innocent until proven guilty?

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  #391  
Old 07-02-2011, 12:23 PM
HeyGirly HeyGirly is offline
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Originally Posted by graciegirl View Post
I agree with you once again California Girl!!

I think......Baez just isn't as smart and certainly was not as well prepared as the two prosecution attorneys. They sure did their job well. Their preparation was done as well as it could be done IMHO. Their research was deep and they knew the subject(s) about as well as their expert witnesses. They never got blind sided or surprised by their direct questioning, as Baez frequently did.

I didn't see any injustice by Judge Perry. I really respected his fairness. And I liked the fact that he didn't mess with someone acting up in his court room and he called Baez for sloppy planning and not being ready a few times. Baez SHOULD have been ready.

Just sayin......
Also agree with C-Girl, CeeJay and Pturner's postings earlier today. Other posters feel the judge was biased against the defense, but I sawl the judge rule fairly--the defense did a lot of posturing but seemed unprepared (they had 3 yrs. to get ready, just as the state did), called witnesses whose testimony backfired on them, and at times, Baez's demeanor to the court and witnesses bordered on unprofessional. (I'm being as kind as possible.)

IMHO, the death penalty won't be the jury's decision. (I think I'd need DNA, a fingerprint, just one thing that was incontrovertible to vote for that.) But a sentence of life in prison (or at least decades) would be a terrible thing for KC--she would no longer be a media sensation. I believe she sedated that poor baby more than once, and had reached a point where that child was in her way.

Such a tragic circumstance for that whole family. We are none of us perfect, but no one should have to live with heartache like this--and KC, in my opinion, is responsible that that. Just sayin'...
  #392  
Old 07-02-2011, 12:42 PM
dillywho dillywho is offline
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Default Great Debate

Before I say my piece (again), I would like to commend every poster on this thread for keeping this truly a respectable debate. Obviously, we all have differing opinions over a very broad range. Thank you all.

Now, whether or not Judge Perry is biased or Baez is incompetent is totally a perception. There have been times I felt JP was biased (as in allowing the computer generated image of the duct tape, but not the picture of an obviously pregnant Casey), sometimes not. Why was Ashton not chastised for his apparent transgression since they are off today as requested? Apparently, if JP read the report as he said he would, he found it as Baez said in his request for sanction. He did pretty much threaten Baez if his "problem" turned out to be imaginary.

Baez comes across as not really knowing what he's doing or is supposed to do. That, in and of itself, could be intentional...remains to be seen. There were many times when he seemed to be struggling and not able to get in the question and he was granted permission to consult with Cheney Mason. I don't know, of course, what Mason told him but he would either just drop it and move on to something else or try again and still have the same problems.

Jeff Ashton came across totally as the school bully. He may be smart but that is easily overshadowed by his arrogant, rude, sometimes whiney personality and style. Wrong as he (Matthew) was, it is not surprising that he was the one extended the "gesture of affection" (as JP called it). And, what was with all his gesturing and face making? The prosecution would have been much better served with Linda Burdick. She got her point across without all the fanfare and sarcasm....just all business.

The important thing to remember is that most, if not all, jurors are not well versed in the law and can only rely on very few things. The most important things are perception, common sense, and their ability to reason things out. I would venture to say that perception ranks pretty close to the top, if not the very top.

I agree that it seems Cheney Mason would have been better as the lead attorney, but remember that he also joined the team late. I don't know what the rule is regarding lead or even if there is one. I personally like Ms. Finnell over either Mason or Baez.

I do not understand the defense's opening statement and then no presentation of corroberation (sp?). I do think some of it could well be true, but certainly is not a basis for killing anyone (other than maybe the abuser). That usually doesn't happen, either. In fact, they often cover for them. The abuse was also alluded to in the jailhouse letters but could also be more fabrications. Robyn Adams was never called due to credibility issues. My only doubt that some contend that abuse didn't happen was when Casey got so upset with some of her mother's testimony. Apparently, one of the lip readers picked up on her blurting to one of her attorneys that she (Cindy) was protecting George and went on to say, "She never protected me". Did she try to tell Cindy at some point that abuse was going on and her mother refused to accept it? If so, it could be that she was so known to be a liar that Cindy just blew it off as another one.
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Last edited by dillywho; 07-02-2011 at 12:45 PM. Reason: speilling
  #393  
Old 07-02-2011, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by graciegirl View Post
Did anyone see the story on 20/20 last night? It is a story of a mother some thirty years ago who shot her three children? Two survived and one testified at the trial that her mother shot them.

She too was very attractive, lied about it, showed inappropriate behavior just after the deaths and was diagnosed with narcissistic behavior and sociopathy. And she too was single and the children were getting in her way of having a good time. She was convicted and is still incarcerated.

She was pregnant at the time and that daughter was adopted. That child was raised by loving parents but became very wild and had two children, the second she adopted out. She (the daughter born after she was arrested) apparently is leveling out now and attending college to become an obstetrician.
Gracie, I did not see 20/20, but that sounds like the story of Diane Downs. Ann Rule wrote a book about the case called Small Sacrifices, and it was made into a TV movie starring Farrah Fawcett. Both are excellent in telling a very chilling story.

It's a shame that infertility isn't a side effect of narcissism, sociopathy and psycopathy.
  #394  
Old 07-02-2011, 01:16 PM
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Default Sooo true CaliforniaGirl

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.

It's a shame that infertility isn't a side effect of narcissism, sociopathy and psycopathy.

Everytime I see a little toddler now, I think of that sweet little Caylee!
  #395  
Old 07-02-2011, 01:17 PM
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Dillywho, I agree with many of your points. Regarding Ashton his presentations may have gone over well if he was just dealing with the Judge. It has been the experience that Juries do not like this type of person and tend to give the benefit to the defense. Your right on perceptions and the impact on decisions. It is probable that within the first 5 days a half of the trial jurors had already decided on their vote. I would vote that it is either going to be a hung jury or a verdict that is much less than 1st degree murder? If she is convicted of 1st degress then I would vote that of course there will be an appeal, in fact when there is a 1st degree verdict it is automatically appealed. I would bet the farm the appeal will be won by the defense and it will be a mistrial. There are numerous errors that would cause a mistrial...
  #396  
Old 07-02-2011, 01:25 PM
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Dillywho, I agree with many of your points. Regarding Ashton his presentations may have gone over well if he was just dealing with the Judge. It has been the experience that Juries do not like this type of person and tend to give the benefit to the defense. Your right on perceptions and the impact on decisions. It is probable that within the first 5 days a half of the trial jurors had already decided on their vote. I would vote that it is either going to be a hung jury or a verdict that is much less than 1st degree murder? If she is convicted of 1st degress then I would vote that of course there will be an appeal, in fact when there is a 1st degree verdict it is automatically appealed. I would bet the farm the appeal will be won by the defense and it will be a mistrial. There are numerous errors that would cause a mistrial...
The reasons you cite here are exactly why I think JP will not go along with the death penalty if she is convicted of the dp charges and it is the jury's recommendation. The last thing he wants is a mistrial or reversal and there are many errors that could do it, as you pointed out. The appeals panel (or whatever they are) would definitely err themselves on the side of caution, especially in today's times and all the overturned decisions. JP would much rather see a mistrial based on trial error than a reversal at some later date.
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  #397  
Old 07-02-2011, 02:10 PM
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Dillywho, I agree with many of your points. Regarding Ashton his presentations may have gone over well if he was just dealing with the Judge. It has been the experience that Juries do not like this type of person and tend to give the benefit to the defense. Your right on perceptions and the impact on decisions. It is probable that within the first 5 days a half of the trial jurors had already decided on their vote. I would vote that it is either going to be a hung jury or a verdict that is much less than 1st degree murder? If she is convicted of 1st degress then I would vote that of course there will be an appeal, in fact when there is a 1st degree verdict it is automatically appealed. I would bet the farm the appeal will be won by the defense and it will be a mistrial. There are numerous errors that would cause a mistrial...
Don't go betting the farm, PennBF . She is certainly not worth it.

My premonition on how this will play out:
Count 1 - First Degree Murder: Not Guilty
Count 2 - Aggravated Child Abuse: Not Guilty
Count 3 - Aggravated Manslaughter of a Child: Guilty
Count 4 - Providing False Information to a LEO: Guilty, admitted by Baez
Count 5 - Providing False Information to a LEO: Guilty, admitted by Baez
Count 6 - Providing False Information to a LEO: Guilty, not contested by Baez
Count 7 - Providing False Information to a LEO: Guilty, not contested by Baez

The above could get her a maximum sentence of 34 years. My guess is she'll get 20 years and be out in 10. She will get out of prison a 30-something convicted felon. Her partying crowd will have matured and be raising families of their own... She will be stuck in menial jobs, having no real marketable skills apart from professional con artist, which she would be wise to ignore.

Her Bella Vita won't be so Bella. As much as I'd like to see her get a needle in the arm, I can live with that.
  #398  
Old 07-02-2011, 02:43 PM
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Attorneys argue the law when it is on thir side and the facts when they favor their case. A good attroney can make a nothing fact a big issue. Baez tried that on several occassions. some folks have been hard on Judge Perry but I think he became very frustrated with Baez's not incompetenence but inexperience.

I have always taken court cases down to simple but relevant facts.

Who was the last person to see Caylee alive?

Who neglected to report Caylee missing for 31 dyas?

Who spent that 31 days not looking for her but partying, etc?

Who lied continually to Cindy and George anthony and the police and anyone else about Caylee's whereabouts?

Who abandoned the Pontiac leaving it with a foul smell that everyone concluded was human composition? etc, etc. etc.

the majority of murder cases are tried on circumstantial evidence.

There is one factor none of us know that is the most important and that is the make-up of this jury, their personality, etc.

While a trial is suppose to be about the truth it too often is sidetracked by a jury to wit the OJ Simpson trial.

all we can do is venture a guess as to how we believe the jury will vote.

I believe most of the jury members will give Casey the benefit of the doubt and conclude she unintentionally killed her daughter and hence she will not be convicted of capital murder
  #399  
Old 07-02-2011, 02:45 PM
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Don't go betting the farm, PennBF . She is certainly not worth it.

My premonition on how this will play out:
Count 1 - First Degree Murder: Not Guilty
Count 2 - Aggravated Child Abuse: Not Guilty
Count 3 - Aggravated Manslaughter of a Child: Guilty
Count 4 - Providing False Information to a LEO: Guilty, admitted by Baez
Count 5 - Providing False Information to a LEO: Guilty, admitted by Baez
Count 6 - Providing False Information to a LEO: Guilty, not contested by Baez
Count 7 - Providing False Information to a LEO: Guilty, not contested by Baez

The above could get her a maximum sentence of 34 years. My guess is she'll get 20 years and be out in 10. She will get out of prison a 30-something convicted felon. Her partying crowd will have matured and be raising families of their own... She will be stuck in menial jobs, having no real marketable skills apart from professional con artist, which she would be wise to ignore.

Her Bella Vita won't be so Bella. As much as I'd like to see her get a needle in the arm, I can live with that.
I think you nailed it. Also, with the whole country familiar with that tatoo, unless she has it removed, she can't even assume a new identity.

Much as I dislike this dude, I did find this interesting. I got it in an email.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news...e-Anthony-died

I dislike Geraldo intently, too, but even he has some interesting points as to why this is so high profile. His question was: Would there have been this much attention if 1) the child was not so beautiful, 2) of another ethnic origin, 3) the mother not pretty, and the family not upper middle class? His answer: No. I agree. Case in point (I said this before), look at the case of Haleigh Cummings. She still hasn't been found and no one has been charged or even arrested (on unrelated charges - yes; murder or anything else - no).
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  #400  
Old 07-02-2011, 10:16 PM
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Closing arguments start at 8:30 AM Sunday morning. It's going to be an interesting day. I admire Judge Perry's handling of the trial to date. I don't think he is biased for the State; he is fed up with Baez' incompetence and lack of preparation.

I agree with C-Girl's "verdict" of guilty of Aggraved Manslaughter. Casey has been in jail for three years so I assume that time served will be deducted from her sentence. IMHO, a slap on the wrist for the horrendous crime she committed.
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  #401  
Old 07-03-2011, 02:16 AM
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Default Jurors' descriptions in Casey trial

http://www.wftv.com/news/27970046/detail.html
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  #402  
Old 07-03-2011, 04:57 AM
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Default IMHO, she will be in lock-up for a long time

River Cruz's quoting George "A horrible accident that went out of control"....BUT the accident was over sedating Caylee.....What a family!?
I think Judge Perry was fair!...Baez a poor representation of the profession...Mason was there for his last Hoooraaah!...Miss Ferrell - quiet and meek...Linda Burdick - all business and the best of the lot....Ashton - a good prosecutor that lets his emotions get in the way...Mr George - effective....BUT and here is the big question how will this jury vote....After looking at stats on jury was surprised at how many have a "background", the majority are against or not in favor of death penalty....We will just have to wait and see....I for one, will be glad to have this end and if it goes to appeal it will happen with me on the golf course!....Good postings by TOTV!...Hugs to you all..
  #403  
Old 07-03-2011, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by jebartle View Post
River Cruz's quoting George "A horrible accident that went out of control"....BUT the accident was over sedating Caylee.....What a family!?
I think Judge Perry was fair!...Baez a poor representation of the profession...Mason was there for his last Hoooraaah!...Miss Ferrell - quiet and meek...Linda Burdick - all business and the best of the lot....Ashton - a good prosecutor that lets his emotions get in the way...Mr George - effective....BUT and here is the big question how will this jury vote....After looking at stats on jury was surprised at how many have a "background", the majority are against or not in favor of death penalty....We will just have to wait and see....I for one, will be glad to have this end and if it goes to appeal it will happen with me on the golf course!....Good postings by TOTV!...Hugs to you all..
Good assesment, I share your viewpoint. See you on the 19th Tee. I am not letting this trial further raise my handicap!
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  #404  
Old 07-03-2011, 08:52 AM
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Default Say Caylee's name every day!!!

Chilling closing...it just all makes me sad!
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  #405  
Old 07-03-2011, 09:11 AM
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This is almost making a sham out our court system......the fact that biaz able to represent this young lady tells us to be very careful when choosing a lawyer,,,he is in so far over his head....I would love to be fly on the wall when local lawyers have a beer and laugh at biaz ...he is an embarrassment! Perry has done a great job in all this.......this is a real bunch of losers in this family....very sad......the act of a family that problems are very deep seeded.....the sad thing this little girl was the victim of all this nuttiness ! This entire family shares somewhat in the burden of this death!!! Ms Casey is the main person to blame! Somehow you just wish after Caseys death there is a spot that is just bit hotter in hell for her!!!!!!
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