[Normal]

Is it the teachers, or is it bad parenting? My belief is the later is the problem. Teachers interact with students for 50 minute classes after age 12. Parents need to be the backbone, many don’t even have one anymore. The better performing schools have parental involvement. That may come from the personal investments as parents.

[Topspinmo]

Originally Posted by dtennent

I am a big believer in public education. Are there teachers who aren’t very good? Absolutely! However, there are many more who do a very good job. Having a home environment which supports education makes a huge difference in what a student will learn. I had parents who discussed with me all the subjects that I had in school. It wasn’t always fun but I went to bed thoroughly prepared for the next day.

I also believe in putting students into tracks according to their abilities. Not everyone should go to college. However, everyone should be able to read, write, and do basic math. Unfortunately, when charter schools take the cream of the students and reduce the funding for the rest of the students, public education takes a hit.

Finally, instead of looking at public education as a cost, we should look at it as an investment into the future of our country.

Public education is bottomless money hole pit. Never will or have enough funding. I thought lottery was supposed fit budget problems? But lot of that money gets sucked away from public education. Public education isn’t problem it’s people making decisions. Like superintendents make 400 grand while teacher it pit verily makes living wage for their 9 1/2 months work while doing all the work. IMO there should be no charter schools or private schools and no superintendents should make more than president with 70% or higher retirement pay funded by taxpayers. Then there the teachers union influence and grab. IMO the whole education system need gutted and rethought cause we are not getting our money worth spent when compared to even 3rd world countries.

[Topspinmo]

Originally Posted by Normal

Is it the teachers, or is it bad parenting? My belief is the later is the problem. Teachers interact with students for 50 minute classes after age 12. Parents need to be the backbone, many don’t even have one anymore. The better performing schools have parental involvement. That may come from the personal investments as parents.

I don’t know now but I had 1 teacher day up to grade 7.

Teachers do their job, incapable parents or lack of responsibility and some kids just can’t learn or as quick so they get overwhelmed left behind. Teachers blame parents. Parents blame teachers in just may be comprehension problem, not everybody can be world influencers, but everybody can develop skill if given the chance if they have will power.

[Bogie Shooter]

Originally Posted by Aces4

I agree with this and think charter schools are important.

However, I believe charter schools should have to accommodate problem students, learning disabled, handicapped students also. These students should be evenly divided between all schools and level the pressure on public schools and private/charter schools.

If they meet the qualifications.

[Bogie Shooter]

Originally Posted by Normal

Is it the teachers, or is it bad parenting? My belief is the later is the problem. Teachers interact with students for 50 minute classes after age 12. Parents need to be the backbone, many don’t even have one anymore. The better performing schools have parental involvement. That may come from the personal investments as parents.

And how those parents viewed education as they were growing up. Dumb parents will have dumb children!

[Stu from NYC]

Originally Posted by BlueStarAirlines

This is exactly what happened in the school district we moved from. In fact, there is no longer a "F" for failing a course. Now the lowest one can get is a D-, which means its impossible to fail an individual course even if one gets a 0% every quiz or test. They have also removed student ranking, so graduating in the top X% of your class is no more.

The wealthier parents are doing everything from enrolling their kids in private schools to after school tutoring in advanced math, sciences, and languages. Most of the tutors are the teachers from the schools, so they are making more money by teaching after hours what was part of the regular curriculum.

Dumbing down the curriculum and results will mean the death of us as a country. Students have to be challenged

[manaboutown]

Originally Posted by BlueStarAirlines

This is exactly what happened in the school district we moved from. In fact, there is no longer a "F" for failing a course. Now the lowest one can get is a D-, which means its impossible to fail an individual course even if one gets a 0% every quiz or test. They have also removed student ranking, so graduating in the top X% of your class is no more.

The wealthier parents are doing everything from enrolling their kids in private schools to after school tutoring in advanced math, sciences, and languages. Most of the tutors are the teachers from the schools, so they are making more money by teaching after hours what was part of the regular curriculum.

This is a tragedy of life in the USA today.

[blueash]

I am amazed at the wrong information presented here. Charter school are not simply public schools operated by a person or group. They are entirely free to decline admission to anyone who doesn't fit their criteria. As they have their own curriculum and discipline that can, and usually does, differ from the public school system they effectively exclude the difficult student.

One misbehavior, gone. Parents don't actively support the school, gone. Have autism, we don't have a program for that, gone.

For example our local Villages Charter school has this rule:

"Parent Involvement Information: Qualifying parent(s) (father/mother/stepfather/stepmother) and/or spouse (or designated adult if single parent) must complete *20 hours every year for each school on campus where children are enrolled. Parent involvement is mandatory for your child to attend The Villages Charter School"

Do they provide all the special ed services a regular public school is required to offer? No

"While VCS does not provide all services or programs for students with disabilities, the Sumter County School District(SCSD) has programming available for any student need."

Every complaint about charter school effectively draining the public schools of the easily educated student and leaving behind those students with behavior problems, learning problems, disinterested parents, significant autism.... etc. is easily proven just by reading the school website. And anyone who thinks this is not what is dooming the public schools is ignoring reality.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by blueash

I am amazed at the wrong information presented here. Charter school are not simply public schools operated by a person or group. They are entirely free to decline admission to anyone who doesn't fit their criteria. As they have their own curriculum and discipline that can, and usually does, differ from the public school system they effectively exclude the difficult student.

One misbehavior, gone. Parents don't actively support the school, gone. Have autism, we don't have a program for that, gone.

For example our local Villages Charter school has this rule:

"Parent Involvement Information: Qualifying parent(s) (father/mother/stepfather/stepmother) and/or spouse (or designated adult if single parent) must complete *20 hours every year for each school on campus where children are enrolled. Parent involvement is mandatory for your child to attend The Villages Charter School"

Do they provide all the special ed services a regular public school is required to offer? No

"While VCS does not provide all services or programs for students with disabilities, the Sumter County School District(SCSD) has programming available for any student need."

Every complaint about charter school effectively draining the public schools of the easily educated student and leaving behind those students with behavior problems, learning problems, disinterested parents, significant autism.... etc. is easily proven just by reading the school website. And anyone who thinks this is not what is dooming the public schools is ignoring reality.

So what?????? Why should any school hold back the best and the brightest to cater to the lowest common denominator????? Do we really need to "mainstream" behavior problems and autism into the same classroom and track as students that are motivated to learn and excel???

Here is an example from 25 years ago in Central NY: A mother successfully sued the school district to "mainstream" her daughter into a regular classroom. The problem was that the "student" was so developmentally disabled that she was non-verbal, no bladder or bowel control, unable to even feed herself, and was breathing through a trach that required suctioning every 3-4 minutes by the full time nurse that accompanied her, also paid for by the district. Why?? So "Mom" did not need to babysit her daughter or pay for help during school hours. And of course there was absolutely no potential for this unfortunate girl to learn anything.

Believe me, the other parents were outraged, their kids were in the lowest performing classroom in the district, and many kids did not want to go to school because of the stench. The teacher had the highest absentee rate in the district as well.

So I don't care how "enlightened" people feel about "mainstreaming" problem children---it is a BAD IDEA. There are plenty of special programs for such kids

[LeRoySmith]

Originally Posted by Normal

Is it the teachers, or is it bad parenting? My belief is the later is the problem. Teachers interact with students for 50 minute classes after age 12. Parents need to be the backbone, many don’t even have one anymore. The better performing schools have parental involvement. That may come from the personal investments as parents.

I'm confident its the parenting. I have 3 straight A students, if it weren't for the support and push from home I think they'd have all been average at best. I didn't accept poor grades and my kids knew it, they also were not afraid to come to me and say they weren't getting it and we'd work through it together. All of them graduated with honors.

I spent a considerable about of time as a loaned executive for The United Way and several of their programs are built around getting kids ready to learn or getting them to grade level math and reading. I was blown away at the poor parent / student relationship and how it impacted the school. We could literally see the impact progress through the years as we put the different programs in place. So many kids enter kindergarten not ready to learn, most 2nd graders couldn't or wouldn't read, many 3rd graders are not at grade level in reading or math. I cant recall the statistics exactly but it is something like 20% of 3rd graders not at grade level won't finish high school, 60% of 6th graders not at grade level will not graduate high school. Many of those go on to get a GED but that's just not the same as a successful lower education. All this was from midwest schools in the 80s and 90s, I don't think things have improved much.

[Pugchief]

Originally Posted by Stu from NYC

Dumbing down the curriculum and results will mean the death of us as a country. Students have to be challenged

But, but, but....."feelings".

[Pugchief]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

So what?????? Why should any school hold back the best and the brightest to cater to the lowest common denominator????? Do we really need to "mainstream" behavior problems and autism into the same classroom and track as students that are motivated to learn and excel???

Here is an example from 25 years ago in Central NY: A mother successfully sued the school district to "mainstream" her daughter into a regular classroom. The problem was that the "student" was so developmentally disabled that she was non-verbal, no bladder or bowel control, unable to even feed herself, and was breathing through a trach that required suctioning every 3-4 minutes by the full time nurse that accompanied her, also paid for by the district. Why?? So "Mom" did not need to babysit her daughter or pay for help during school hours. And of course there was absolutely no potential for this unfortunate girl to learn anything.

Believe me, the other parents were outraged, their kids were in the lowest performing classroom in the district, and many kids did not want to go to school because of the stench. The teacher had the highest absentee rate in the district as well.

So I don't care how "enlightened" people feel about "mainstreaming" problem children---it is a BAD IDEA. There are plenty of special programs for such kids

Yep. Agree 100%

[Velvet]

As a schoolteacher I have found that 1 “special needs” child will take away my time from the 25 other, “normal” students. So because of the “rights” of 1 person, 25 others had to suffer. How is this fair?

[Normal]

Originally Posted by Velvet

As a schoolteacher I have found that 1 “special needs” child will take away my time from the 25 other, “normal” students. So because of the “rights” of 1 person, 25 others had to suffer. How is this fair?

All are not created equal in cognitive abilities. It isn’t fair. Students were mainstreamed to save money. The taxpayers did not want to spend more, and an excuse was given with special needs student law suits to group everyone together..

You still see challenges in curriculum, advanced classes are being ruled out in some districts in both math and English. It seems it isn’t because they want to be fair; it is more in line with school districts not having to have more classes and hire more teachers. Final demarcation is the cheap taxpayer and the money conscious school boards both having to be appeased.

Full inclusion has ruined many public school districts. Mainstream average and advanced students are given less individual time because of special needs consumption.

[Aces4]

=Bogie Shooter;2355105]If they meet the qualifications.

What qualifications? Born on the right side of the track? Every child doesn't deserve an education if they don't have the "right" qualifications?